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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/24/2006 10:47:21 PM EDT
I realize that there will be a difference in the POI at varying distances since the sights are above the barrel and pointing down and all. It seems though that I always hit dead center on my targets at 7ds and with nice tight groups with both my XD subcompact and my RRA 1911, but at 25 yds I am always pretty high (the groups are still nice). Todayat 25yds I decided to just try shooting at the bottom of the 6" (I think it is 6" they were NRA 100yd rifle targets) black circles on my targets like you would with a gun with a 6o'clock zero and my groups were dead center every time. I always just assumed I did something wrong when shooting at 25yds but now I am thinking it is just the way the guns are zeroed and the nature of the sights. It just seems like a big difference between 7yds and 25yds as at 7 I just aim for dead center.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:30:38 AM EDT
What sort of groups are we talking about here? 2" at 25 yds, assuming slowfire and a braced firing position, is a readily attainable standard of accuracy, given a good pistol and ammo. 1" can be done, standing unsupported, by a great shooter with a really nice pistol.

When you shoot at 7 yds, the aiming point gets obliterated by your bullet holes in the target, so the groups tend to be disappointing (as in 1" or so). If you zero a .45 with 230 gr ball ammo at 25 yds, your point of impact will be so close to your point of aim, at 7 yds, that you will be unable to detect a difference.

Why bother with slowfire groups, anyway, at any range? They don't have any realistic application for defense. Do you hunt with your sidearms?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:45:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Why bother with slowfire groups, anyway, at any range?



If he's anything like me, he does it because it's the only way to prove that you're practicing good habits!
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:13:06 AM EDT
I just like to know what the smallest group I can shoot is. I practice double taps, drawing from my IWB holster, etc as well. I just find it strange that the POA and POI are different for me at 7 and 25yds as I wouldn't think it would vary much in those ranges.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:01:39 AM EDT
If I were you, I'd either go find out what range the guns and loads are zeroed-at, or I'd rezero to 25 yds. What's the point of hitting so high above your point of aim, anyway? I know that some of the match guys, both combat and bullseye, like to use a 6 oclock hold for more precision, but it doesn't sound like you are a match guy.

Slowfire group practice is not the right thing (at all) for realistic use of the sidearm. In the real world, you use the pistol at 5 yds and less, very swiftly, and you are happy if 3/4 of your shots hit the chest. Nothing about slowfire teaches you how to achieve that goal, on moving targets, in bad light, while you are scared to death, with your ears blown out and your eyes dazzled by the muzzleflashes.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:15:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
If I were you, I'd either go find out what range the guns and loads are zeroed-at, or I'd rezero to 25 yds. What's the point of hitting so high above your point of aim, anyway? I know that some of the match guys, both combat and bullseye, like to use a 6 oclock hold for more precision, but it doesn't sound like you are a match guy.

Slowfire group practice is not the right thing (at all) for realistic use of the sidearm. In the real world, you use the pistol at 5 yds and less, very swiftly, and you are happy if 3/4 of your shots hit the chest. Nothing about slowfire teaches you how to achieve that goal, on moving targets, in bad light, while you are scared to death, with your ears blown out and your eyes dazzled by the muzzleflashes.



I do train for carry but I also like to just shoot for enjoyment so some days I may have useless sessions of slowfire or blasting cans. It's fun so why not. I guess it may be a waste of ammo but if shooting was always 100% serious training and never about just having fun I'd probably lose interest.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:26:08 AM EDT
that's sad. I've never once lost interest in training, after nearly 40 years, and countless tens of thousands of rounds, nearly all spent on high speed defensive stuff. You need a shooting timer and some match experience. You can never be too fast with a gun, especially not the pistol.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:29:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By unusual:
If I were you, I'd either go find out what range the guns and loads are zeroed-at, or I'd rezero to 25 yds. What's the point of hitting so high above your point of aim, anyway? I know that some of the match guys, both combat and bullseye, like to use a 6 oclock hold for more precision, but it doesn't sound like you are a match guy.

Slowfire group practice is not the right thing (at all) for realistic use of the sidearm. In the real world, you use the pistol at 5 yds and less, very swiftly, and you are happy if 3/4 of your shots hit the chest. Nothing about slowfire teaches you how to achieve that goal, on moving targets, in bad light, while you are scared to death, with your ears blown out and your eyes dazzled by the muzzleflashes.



I do train for carry but I also like to just shoot for enjoyment so some days I may have useless sessions of slowfire or blasting cans. It's fun so why not. I guess it may be a waste of ammo but if shooting was always 100% serious training and never about just having fun I'd probably lose interest.

It is good to have diversity with shooting. Two weeks ago I took the shotty out to blast some sporting clays. Not training, just good fun.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:54:04 PM EDT
Don’t know what the problem is, but it shouldn’t be the bullet trajectory (unless maybe your sights are really, really high).

Per my Sierra ballistics program, for a .45 caliber 230 grain FMJ zeroed at 7 yards and going 850 fps with sights ½ inch above the bore line – the point of impact at 25 yards should only be about .2 inch higher than the point of aim.

As above except a 9MM 124 grain FMJ going 1120 fps would be about .6 inch higher.


Originally Posted By SIG_220:
... I may have useless sessions of slowfire or blasting cans. It's fun so why not. I guess it may be a waste of ammo ...


Not necessarily.

A co-worker in my former agency wound up using his SIG at a distance (IIRC) of about 60 yards in a gunfight with a guy with an AK-47 who had just killed three people. Granted, the best he could do was pin the guy down.

And there was an Air Force policeman out west a few years ago that used his Beretta to successfully take out a gunman at 70 yards.

Self-defense handgun shots requiring great accuracy are pretty rare, but they do happen. It’s a worthwhile skill to have.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:56:56 AM EDT
No, it's not, because it comes at the price of not practicing enough at the sort of shooting that matters most. The guy with the long range deal against a rifle got lucky, that's all. He fired a bunch of shots, got 1-2 lucky hits, pure and simple. He was also lucky in that the AK wielder had no clue how to use his rifle. I, for one, aint bothering to count on luck to help me with an extremely rare scenario, at the cost of my not getting enough practice at the super fast, up close stuff that occurs thousands of times per day in the USA, to somebody. I've had to draw my pistol several times, and came very close to having to do so on other occasions, and wished I'd had it with me a couple of other times, when I didn't. I don't drink or hang out in bad places, either. All it takes to have trouble is to excercise your right to go where you please, when you please (and no, not on other's private property, either.
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