Why you don't buy a Llama

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why you don't buy a Llama

Posted: 3/15/2006 8:33:01 PM EDT

Wanted to share a long email I just sent to a customer who asked me to figure out why his Llama MAX-1 had a 12 pound trigger pull, wouldn't feed even ball ammo properly, and had a point of impact some one foot low and two feet to the right even at 15 yards. Names have been removed to protect the innocent victim. I'm sharing here in case anyone is thinking of purchasing one of these guns. DON'T.

*****, I've reworked your Llama as best I can and I'm going to test fire it this weekend. I can say without a doubt that it is the roughest pistol I've ever worked on. Here's what I've done and what I can't do. Better grab a cold one, this could take awhile.

Trigger job: When I removed the sear and disconnect from the gun they were rusty. I spent alot of time dressing the angles with a hand file to remove burrs, casting flash lines, and knock down high spots on what should have been flat engagement areas. I polished the disconnect, sear, engagement surfaces on the hammer, engagement surfaces on the trigger, and the rear of the trigger stirrup. I also tweaked the fork spring slightly so your grip safety would have a little more "springyness" to it and to reduce the weight of the trigger pull slightly. The trigger has been improved from a grade of F to a grade of C, which is about all I can do with it. Unfortunately I also confirmed that the parts aren't really standard 1911 bits so buying high quality replacements from Wilson or something won't do you any good.

Barrel/feed area: Your barrel now has an actual feed ramp that is polished and has no tooling chatter on it. The sharp burr that ran along the underside of the feed ramp that was there has been removed. The chamber hood has been polished although you can still see tooling marks in it, I didn't want to actually remove metal from the chamber area, that's never a good idea! The frame has been smoothed where it was peening itself to death, and the slide-to-frame fit has been smoothed and deburred so the slide pulls back easier now than before. There was one nasty high spot on your frame that was just scratching up your slide every time the gun was cycled, I removed that too. The feeding area of the frame underneath the feed ramp of the barrel has been polished and smoothed.

Accuracy: Ok, here goes... basically, we have significant problems that I cannot fix.

First off, one of the critical areas for accuracy in a 1911 type is the tightness of the locking link and the area it bears on, under the barrel. This is the little swinging thing with the hole in it that the slide stop goes through. The slide stop is supposed to fit tightly against the hole in the link, and the link is supposed to fit tightly against the underlug of the barrel, and this is half of the basis for a tight lockup. On your gun this assembly of parts is about as tight as Anna Nicole Smith's... well, you get it. Its not tight at all and probably never was. I did squeeze the underlug section of the barrel in a vise to try to increase its grip on the locking link but that's only one part of the equation here, its not going to make any difference.

Second off, the other half of the basis for tight lockup in a 1911 is the relationship of the slide to the barrel bushing and the barrel bushing to the barrel. Again, this Llama is the sloppiest I've ever seen. On most 1911s those parts will get sloppy or start to move once the gun is unlocked and the slide begins to move back, but at lockup, as if the gun has just fired and the slide hasn't started to move yet, they should be pretty tight. Match grade competition guns have this area so tight that you need a special tool to turn the bushing at all. With the Llama at lockup I can wiggle the barrel around in the slide with my bare fingers. Yikes. Maybe you could buy another bushing to tighten up this area, but there wouldn't be any point to that, because...

Third off, and this is the real kicker, we have discovered that the chamber is not concentric to the bore. I have never seen this on any firearm before. Basically if you look into the barrel from the chamber side, you can tell that the chamber does not line up with the barrel and its rifling. You can tell this by looking at where the chamber stops and the rifling begins-- in some areas there is a thin line there, and in some areas a thick line. Imagine a barrel with rifling in it but no chamber, just a solid hunk of metal where the rifling ends. You need to make a chamber for it so you put it in a milling machine, straight up and down, and you use a special bit to make the chamber the right size and shape and to end where the rifling begins. Now imagine that you were in a hurry or the machine wasn't calibrated right, and you didn't put the barrel in the machine straight up and down at all, but crooked, and then pulled the lever and milled the chamber anyway. This is what has happened with your Llama. The other stuff, the bushing lockup and the slide stop/locking link, would explain a gun that wasn't accurate, that shot a 5 inch group at 25 yards or something like that. But they wouldn't explain why a gun would shoot so far away from point of aim with sights that are pefectly centered and a good shooter taking his time on the trigger. Only the condition of your barrel can explain why the gun's point of impact is off so bad. In machinists terms your barrel and chamber are shaped like Gonzo the Muppet's nose, and a bullet will never fly straight out of there. The only solution would be to buy another barrel, but since the Llama doesn't use a "spec" 1911 barrel I wouldn't be able to make a replacement 1911 barrel work. You would need to buy another Llama barrel, and who knows if that one would be any better? Numrich Gun Parts doesn't even carry replacement parts for Llama, I checked. So who knows where you would get one from even if you wanted to spend the money on it.

I'm going to test fire this weekend and see if the gun at least functions. I'll let you know how it shoots. I'm only going to charge you for two hours of labor, or a total of $60. I won't charge you any more than that because I hate the thought of you having to sink money into this thing. My suggestion to you is, take it to a gunshow, tell people that the trigger has been cleaned up and a gunsmith worked on it until it would feed reliably, and dump it off. Take the money, add $100 or so, and buy a Springfield GI or Milspec, and never look back.

Sorry for such a long email, but I wanted to include everything in my communication to you. Let me know what you think. --****

Posted: 3/15/2006 8:41:15 PM EDT

[#1]

All I can say is "Damn glad I don't own a Llama."

Thanks for the heads up.

Posted: 3/15/2006 8:45:44 PM EDT

[#2]

Wow

Thanks for the reassurance of the shoddy craftsmanship.

Posted: 3/15/2006 9:02:46 PM EDT

[#3]

Whoa!

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:06:18 AM EDT

[#4]

www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:06:59 AM EDT

[#5]

They are on par with the High Points. 250$ for a 1911-frame.

I did get rid of mine after ~500rds. Mine was more accurate than his, but wasn't consistient.

They are out of business now though. So no worries.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:14:55 AM EDT

[#6]

Come on now; pictures of the view down that barrel are a must!

Posted: 3/16/2006 5:15:50 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Come on now; pictures of the view down that barrel are a must!

Might try that later. Its hard to see with the naked eye anyway, but its there, if you know what you are looking for.

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:54:25 AM EDT

[#8]

My first "1911" was a Llama MiniMax. That POS drive me nuts. Parts were not milspec, so I was stuck with it just like it was. Got rid of it in a hurry. And for some reason it didn't turn me off on 1911's.

My next two 1911's were Charles Daly's. One full-size and one Officer's. Both are still with me and have been flawless. I've never understood why some people lump Daly's in with Llama's. There's NO comparison in fit, finish, and functionality IMO...

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:42:22 AM EDT

[#9]

Red_Label, at least the CD is a "spec" 1911 with the holes drilled in the proper places. If you gave me a CD to work on I could swap in a couple of quality trigger components, swap in a quality barrel and bushing, maybe tighten the slide to frame fit just a bit, give it a refinish if it needed one, and you'd have a damn serviceable 1911. Even straight from the factory they usually FUNCTION.

With the Llama? Well, like the email said, I spent a couple of hours cleaning it up enough that the owner can probably dump it off, and that's all the effort its worth.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:54:24 AM EDT

[#10]

Roger that Duke. Couldn't agree more.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:01:10 AM EDT

[#11]

The Llama .45 I bought years ago would get about three shots off before stovepiping.
Traded it in and have never bought a Llama since.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:04:41 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
The Llama .45 I bought years ago would get about three shots before stovepiping.
Traded it in and have never bought a Llama since.

Ditto. When mine would actually eject a case beyond the slide it would hit me right between the eyes. It got to be so I was flinching not from recoil, but for fear of getting hit by cases. The gun was more effective against the shooter than any targets!

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:05:45 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Ditto. When mine would actually eject a case beyond the slide it would hit me right between the eyes.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:00:03 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Ditto. When mine would actually eject a case beyond the slide it would hit me right between the eyes. It got to be so I was flinching not from recoil, but for fear of getting hit by cases. The gun was more effective against the shooter than any targets!

I experienced this same thing with a friend's Llama. First time it happened, I was all "wtf?!?!?!" This was with one of the older models that had the vent rib on the slide. I don't know if any of the newer ones do that or not. Very distracting stuff.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:07:21 PM EDT

[#15]

There is nothing better than a good 1911, and nothing worse than a bad one.

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:10:38 PM EDT

[#16]

" In machinists terms your barrel and chamber are shaped like Gonzo the Muppet's nose, and a bullet will never fly straight out of there."

Posted: 3/16/2006 8:14:47 PM EDT

[#17]

I gotta laugh when I see a positive Llama story. Most of these posters like to tell you how they have had one for 5,10, 15 years, without any problems.
I suspect 15 trouble-free years equates to mebbe $30 worth of ammo......harles well mebbe the guys that like theirs, like to dine on 'reduced price' $1 a pound butt-roast as well.

Posted: 3/16/2006 8:26:59 PM EDT

[#18]

I and a buddy both bought llama minimax pistols. The serials were consecutive. His was a total lump of crap and mine worked like it should. It was not all that accurate but went bang every time I pulled the trigger. I lost it in a card game.

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:18:41 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Ditto. When mine would actually eject a case beyond the slide it would hit me right between the eyes. It got to be so I was flinching not from recoil, but for fear of getting hit by cases. The gun was more effective against the shooter than any targets!

I experienced this same thing with a friend's Llama. First time it happened, I was all "wtf?!?!?!" This was with one of the older models that had the vent rib on the slide. I don't know if any of the newer ones do that or not. Very distracting stuff.

LOL, same here.

Shoot it sideways and you don't have that problem though.

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:27:40 PM EDT

[#20]

A lama spit on me when I was a kid. I'll never own one of those bastards. Send them all to the glue factory, sez me.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:59:04 PM EDT

[#21]

I friend of mine briefly owned a Llama, and I'll say that I believe every word of your story. Worst jamomatic POS that I've ever seen, and sadly I think it was still a little bit better than your customers pistol! He sold it pretty quickly after figuring out that it wasn't worth a damn.

BTW: I'm glad to hear that you're treating your customer right on this, it would suck to have to shell out a bunch of $ for gunsmithing on a gun that probably wasn't worth it in the first place, and even afterwards still won't run well.

Posted: 3/17/2006 12:04:53 AM EDT

[#22]

My friends llama, had the back sight that slid to the left and right. One of the funniest things i've ever seen.

Posted: 3/17/2006 7:57:05 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
BTW: I'm glad to hear that you're treating your customer right on this, it would suck to have to shell out a bunch of $ for gunsmithing on a gun that probably wasn't worth it in the first place, and even afterwards still won't run well.

In all honesty when I first saw the gun I took it as a challenge. The first time I saw it, I knew that I had the ability to significantly improve what was there and I was curious to see just how bad it was once I tore it down to the bare frame. If you give me a Kimber CDP and ask me to do a trigger job, there's not going to be much improvement because it was grade A from the factory and I'm just trying to get it to A+ status. This thing was a grade F in every way, and I wanted to see how far I could take it.

The night I worked on the gun I kept interrupting my business partners who were also working at the shop. I would run up to them and say "Look at this! Have you ever seen this before? The sear is crooked!" Or I would say "You know, I've never felt the need to take a hand file to a 1911 type disconnect before just to knock off casting flash..."

So even though I didn't really make any money doing it, working on it was really interesting. If it wasn't for the catastrophic barrel problem I think I could have made it a passable beater gun, like a toolbox gun or glovebox gun. It would have gone from a grade F to a grade C. But the barrel problem is something I just cannot fix, nobody can, so that torpedoed any chance it had to be a decent firearm.

Posted: 3/17/2006 8:36:09 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
BTW: I'm glad to hear that you're treating your customer right on this, it would suck to have to shell out a bunch of $ for gunsmithing on a gun that probably wasn't worth it in the first place, and even afterwards still won't run well.

In all honesty when I first saw the gun I took it as a challenge. The first time I saw it, I knew that I had the ability to significantly improve what was there and I was curious to see just how bad it was once I tore it down to the bare frame. If you give me a Kimber CDP and ask me to do a trigger job, there's not going to be much improvement because it was grade A from the factory and I'm just trying to get it to A+ status. This thing was a grade F in every way, and I wanted to see how far I could take it.

The night I worked on the gun I kept interrupting my business partners who were also working at the shop. I would run up to them and say "Look at this! Have you ever seen this before? The sear is crooked!" Or I would say "You know, I've never felt the need to take a hand file to a 1911 type disconnect before just to knock off casting flash..."

So even though I didn't really make any money doing it, working on it was really interesting. If it wasn't for the catastrophic barrel problem I think I could have made it a passable beater gun, like a toolbox gun or glovebox gun. It would have gone from a grade F to a grade C. But the barrel problem is something I just cannot fix, nobody can, so that torpedoed any chance it had to be a decent firearm.

So accuracy issues aside, how reliable was it after you were done?
How many rounds did you test fire it with and how many failures?

Just curious. I have heard of smiths even removing material from the ejection port to enhance reliability on these Llamas

Posted: 3/17/2006 8:59:37 AM EDT

[#25]

I'll test fire it Sunday. Want me to take pics?

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:02:14 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I'll test fire it Sunday. Want me to take pics?

Would be pretty cool if you did!

Just don't hold the Camera where your face would be or the brass might break the lense

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:21:36 AM EDT

[#27]

I keep waiting for the punchline... is this truely a true story?

HOLY SHIT!!!

And I thought the davis P380 I bought years ago as a throw away was bad...

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:42:20 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Charles Daly's and RIA's...... well mebbe the guys that like theirs, like to dine on 'reduced price' $1 a pound butt-roast as well.

Spare me the BS.

I dunno about RIA, but Charles Daly 1911's are decent pistols FOR THE MONEY. I have two of them and BOTH perform BETTER than two Springfields that I've had. I've put almost 2,000 rounds through them over the last several years. And evidently Patrick Sweeney in this "Book of the 1911" likes crap as well because he's smithed, shot, competed with, and tested EVERY brand of 1911 over the years and he puts Daly 1911's up against most of the non-custom guns out there. He keeps one handy in the safe. And he's not the first big name shooter and/or writer who's been impressed with the cheap 1911 that shoots like an expensive one. I don't care where a gun is made. HOW IT WORKS is what matters. And Daly 1911's are fine damn pistols. You can go back to your Kobe beef now...

Posted: 3/17/2006 12:29:59 PM EDT

[#29]

I'm sure Mr. Sweeney knows his stuff. I mean, he wrote a book did he not?hisEnjoy your Phillipino guns..........just don't carry one if you are watching my six, ok?
handy
Better than in his holster!

Posted: 3/17/2006 12:55:14 PM EDT

[#30]

With your condescending attitude why would we want to watch your six?

From the brisket and rib eating owner of a RIA working on it's second thousand rounds without a hiccup.

Posted: 3/17/2006 2:58:40 PM EDT

[#31]

A Llama is a RETARDED horse

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:16:37 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
A Llama is a RETARDED horse hr

Here, however, it's Spanish for "flame"...and, they have now flamed out.

Posted: 3/18/2006 6:46:14 AM EDT

[#33]

Just FYI, Llama and Bersa are the same company. It seems Llama is their "low end" line.

There is no excuse for a firearm that does not function correctly right out of the box.

This is where some will defend Bersa saying they make quality weapons, and perhaps they are better than their Llama division, but I question the integrity of any manufacturer that puts out products as shoddy as the "Llama" line of pistols. The fact that the Bersas do function better proves they are capable of better QA, they just choose to cut the corners and hope people will buy their junk.

Posted: 3/18/2006 7:40:23 AM EDT

[#34]

You could say the same thing about Century Arms guns, but most of them can be salvaged into guns that work at least decently. They just mass produce stuff with no attention to detail.

Maybe that's the way to go, they've certainly made more money doing that than I have with my little gunsmithing store. Sheesh...

Posted: 3/18/2006 8:19:01 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
You could say the same thing about Century Arms guns, but most of them can be salvaged into guns that work at least decently. They just mass produce stuff with no attention to detail.

Maybe that's the way to go, they've certainly made more money doing that than I have with my little gunsmithing store. Sheesh...

Agreed. And the Century angry beavers do occasionally put out a good weapon, as well as a bunch of junk. I have had and gotten rid of some of Century's junk that didn't work and was not worth fixing(CETMEs), but also own and keep a century L1A1 that works flawlessly. They are very hit or miss and it's a lot like playing the state lottery. Occasionally you get lucky.

As far as getting rich on poor quality firearms, likely you have too much integrity and pride to do that or you would not be posting about attempting to fix a debilitated Llama!

Posted: 3/18/2006 12:44:23 PM EDT

[#36]

If I could have only one rifle for all purposes, for survival, for defense, and to take the fight to the enemy, it would be my Century STG58. But it took me some money and some time to make it that way. From the factory it was most useful as a club.

As for getting rich on poor quality firearms, bah... its already been done.

I'm not putting in hours of my time and taking the risk of running my own small business just to sell people garbage.

Posted: 3/18/2006 3:16:10 PM EDT

[#37]

Llamas are SWEET!

Posted: 3/18/2006 6:19:35 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
With your condescending attitude why would we want to watch your six?

From the brisket and rib eating owner of a RIA working on it's second thousand rounds without a hiccup.

passing the 3k mark on mine.

Posted: 3/18/2006 8:57:52 PM EDT

[#39]

I made the mistake of buying a Llama as my first pistol. Its the worst piece of crap i've ever seen, been using it as a paper weight for a couple years now. It's had about 1500 rounds and never got off a whole magazine without a couple of failures. Would get rid of it, but wouldn't want to make anyone else go through life having to say they bought a Llama.

Posted: 3/19/2006 2:31:57 PM EDT

[#40]

I've always been impressed with the Llama's uncanny design which makes it point like a hairdrier...

Posted: 3/19/2006 2:39:06 PM EDT

[#41]

Duke - I have spotted a smiliar problem that you and I face in our other professions. Honesty.

Posted: 3/19/2006 4:01:31 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I've always been impressed with the Llama's uncanny design which makes it point like a hairdrier...

It's dimensionally the same as a 1911 (at least the one I had).

Posted: 3/20/2006 7:19:08 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I'm sure Mr. Sweeney knows his stuff. I mean, he wrote a book did he not?
Anybody carrying one of his guns?..........................................mebbe I run in the wrong circles, but I've never seen or even heard of one.
Enjoy your Phillipino guns..........just don't carry one if you are watching my six, ok?

Edited to add:
Mr. Sweeney keeps one 'handy' in the safe?
Better than in his holster!

Two questions:

1) WHO ARE YOU again? I've been reading Mr. Sweeney's gunsmithing books and articles for years now. He's been a smith for many years and a competitor in rifle and pistol competitions as well. So WHO ARE YOU again?

2) WHO ARE YOU that I'd wanna "watch your six". Don't worry about me "watching your six" Rambo. I've got better things to do.

Oh wait... I've got another question for you... WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH CHARLES DALY PISTOLS? If it's heresay then forget it. I have REAL experience with both the Charles Daly brand and the Llama brand. The first is still ticking strong, the latter was junk. I really could give a crap if you don't care for Phillipine-made guns. Mine go bang EVERY time I pull the trigger and they hit the center-of-mass target EVERY time as well. I fail to see how your "superior" pistols or your smug attitude would be capable defending someone's "six" better than mine.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why you don't buy a Llama

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