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Posted: 9/8/2005 7:17:22 PM EDT
How does the 10mm compare to the 9/.357sig/45/and 40..?
damage wise to either game or humans?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:18:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAI:
How does the 10mm compare to the 9/.357sig/45/and 40..?
damage wise to either game or humans?



Not to Hijack but how does 10mm do against body armor?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:19:41 PM EDT
i have no idea? I would like to know though..
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:44:57 PM EDT
10mm out of a pistol still will not go through body armor--h/w, i'm not sure if it were out of a longer bbl, but i bet that FMJs out of a 14 or so in bbl and lighter weight bullets would go through level II or so vests....

a 10mm is like a light auto magnum cartrige--its just awsome

w/ the right loads (i use win 175gr silvertip HPs and 135gr corbons JHPs full power loads vs the down graded stuff), you can get ~500-600+ ft/lb of energy out of em

www.glockfaq.com/cartridge.htm#10mm

i cant remember any specific tests, but i'd put a 10mm over ALL of your listed (w/ specfic loads) calibers "damage" wise to game and humans

if you ever get a 10mm, i would recommend a G20
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
10mm out of a pistol still will not go through body armor--h/w, i'm not sure if it were out of a longer bbl, but i bet that FMJs out of a 14 or so in bbl and lighter weight bullets would go through level II or so vests....

a 10mm is like a light auto magnum cartrige--its just awsome

w/ the right loads (i use win 175gr silvertip HPs and 135gr corbons JHPs full power loads vs the down graded stuff), you can get ~500-600+ ft/lb of energy out of emhref=www.glockfaq.com/cartridge.htm#10mm

i cant remember any specific tests, but i'd put a 10mm over ALL of your listed (w/ specfic loads) calibers "damage" wise to game and humans

if you ever get a 10mm, i would recommend a G20




That was my thoght exactly.....why don't we have an AR conversion,,,,excuse me if we already do...but to me the 10mm with the right load is unbeatable.

thanks for your reply.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:53:58 PM EDT
G20 has been on my wish list for some time now. I'm just wondering why i don't hear more about this cartrige
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:57:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:57:27 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By MAI:
How does the 10mm compare to the 9/.357sig/45/and 40..?
damage wise to either game or humans?



It's a hot cartridge, but still not nearly at the rifle level of power to cause a big temporary cavity that damages tissue beyond what the bullet crushes. Thus, like most handgun rounds, you're left with the ability to punch as big a hole as possible as deep as possible.

.45 wins
.40 S&W and 10mm a virtual tie--they're the same caliber, and well-designed jacketed hollow points in each will likely expand to pretty much the same diameter and penetrate a foot or more
9mm and .357 Sig a virtual tie for 3rd place--same caliber again

I'm not taking much into consideration as far as secondary penetration (i.e. through auto glass, body armor, etc.)
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:59:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Originally Posted By MAI:
How does the 10mm compare to the 9/.357sig/45/and 40..?
damage wise to either game or humans?



It's a hot cartridge, but still not nearly at the rifle level of power to cause a big temporary cavity that damages tissue beyond what the bullet crushes. Thus, like most handgun rounds, you're left with the ability to punch as big a hole as possible as deep as possible.

.45 wins
.40 S&W and 10mm a virtual tie--they're the same caliber, and well-designed jacketed hollow points in each will likely expand to pretty much the same diameter and penetrate a foot or more
9mm and .357 Sig a virtual tie for 3rd place--same caliber again

I'm not taking much into consideration as far as secondary penetration (i.e. through auto glass, body armor, etc.)



45acp does not work well on car bodies or hard surfaces. It does not penetrate well.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:00:22 PM EDT
I know the 10mm has more velocity...wouldnt' it be abel to penetrate more?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:04:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAI:
I know the 10mm has more velocity...wouldnt' it be abel to penetrate more?



Theoretically yes, must be friction on the round as it enters. Though shouldn't friction on the round be the same, then velocity is added so yes it should. Someone elaborate.


Has the 10mm killed as many as the .40S&W. Any body of tests/field data? On humans not jelly or water.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:09:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:11:09 PM EDT by MAI]

Originally Posted By Mattl:

Originally Posted By MAI:
I know the 10mm has more velocity...wouldnt' it be abel to penetrate more?



Theoretically yes, must be friction on the round as it enters. Though shouldn't friction on the round be the same, then velocity is added so yes it should. Someone elaborate.


Has the 10mm killed as many as the .40S&W. Any body of tests/field data? On humans not jelly or water.



I don't even know if the 10mm has been used that much as the 40 considering the FBI adopted the 40. I'm wondering if it would kick more than people would like... I have heard people bitching about the 45. That is nothing.... I'm just curious on why we don't see more of the 10mm..
I do know it's the same caliber but what about that extra powder pushing it?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:48:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 12:49:38 AM EDT by m98codered]
it's hard for other calibers to replace one that's been around a long long time like the 45acp. it's cheaper to shoot because it's availibity just like the .22lr. there's no way in hell would the .17hmrs/hm2's would dominate the .22lr. for every round of .17hmr, 15rds of .22lr can be had.
another thing is that many shooters will complain of the blast/recoil of a full load 10mm and so the 10mm load itself would have to be degraded to 40s/w levels so it'll be more enjoyable to shoot. then here why would these shooters pay more for 10mm ammo when 40sw is cheaper and is ballistically identical.........down to the point=too many Winers' and wimps out there that want's something powerful but don't like the recoil
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 2:46:45 AM EDT
10mm Auto is rather expensive to shoot and has more recoil than what most people would like.

45 Auto is SUPPOSED to be cheap to shoot, but 9mm Luger and 40 S&W are about the least expensive cartridges to shoot that aren't as neutered as 380 ACP / 38 Special / 22LR.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:56:42 PM EDT
The 10mm is by far the most versatile auto-pistol cartridge around. It is essentially a larger bore, hopped up .357 Magnum (when using propperly loaded rounds such a DoubleTap). A 200 gr pill @ more than 1200 fps, is enough to manage almost any task that a service pistol would confront. It is a true 100 yards capable cartridge. Not to mention, using a G20 one has 15 + 1 of these bad boys on tap. That is far superior to any 357 revolver. Why not 10mm? Because people are too driven by gun rags more than their own ballistic research, and of coarse cost and availibility of DECENT ammo (most availble 10 loads are loaded down to 40 Short & Weak velos).

The 10 has a strong cult following and all of them hope that soemday it will have a revival...and maybe it will, but as long as decent ammo is not cheap and prolific, it will never become a common household round.

(PS: Check out my new avatar )
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 3:52:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 3:56:19 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By Mattl:

Originally Posted By MAI:
I know the 10mm has more velocity...wouldnt' it be abel to penetrate more?



Theoretically yes, must be friction on the round as it enters. Though shouldn't friction on the round be the same, then velocity is added so yes it should. Someone elaborate.


Has the 10mm killed as many as the .40S&W. Any body of tests/field data? On humans not jelly or water.



there are 4 main factors that determine penetration:

1. caliber
2. bullet mass
3. bullet design
4. velocity


comparing 10mm and 40 S&W, hollow points will open up to somewhere in the neighborhood of .60 to .65 cal. Thus, it's a wash here.

comparing bullet mass, a 180 grain bullet in either cartridge that mushrooms to the same caliber will have the same sectional density, thus penetration should be about the same (more mass theoretically should yield more penetration) if velocities are similar. A 200 grain 10mm bullet ought to penetrate more than a 180 grain bullet propelled at the same velocity.

comparing bullet design is key, and velocity either helps or hurts here. If a bullet slams into something at such a high velocity that it mushrooms immensely, it will grow to a much larger caliber and decrease in sectional density...its penetrating ability will be reduced GREATLY. The bullet is so big across its front surface that it comes into contact with a lot of tissue. A 9mm FMJ will usually penetrate twice as much as an expanded hollow point of the same weight fired at the same velocity.

So, as long as the bullet is manufactured in the proper "velocity range," it can be designed to mushroom to a desired level and penetrate deeply. If the bullet is out of its range (let's say a bullet best suited for .38 special velocities loaded in a .357 mag cartridge) it will likely over-expand and underpenetrate, even though it's going so much faster.

So I'll amend my original statement...if the 10mm and .40 bullets are of the proper design and build, the 10mm will probably penetrate somewhat deeper. The 10mm can expand to the same diameter as the .40, but since it's going faster, will likely penetrate more deeply.

If the 10mm bullet expands to a larger diameter than the .40 (often a desirable effect), then it's hard to say which will penetrate mor--yes, the 10mm is going faster, but it is also bigger in diameter and trying to plow through more tissue.

There are other factors, too...how quickly the hollow point mushrooms, the shape of the mushroom (smooth rounded profile or one with jagged edges), etc.

As far as street results, you'll never find any in a book or website that are worth perusing. Gelatin is the best medium for testing such things.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 4:32:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
The 10mm is by far the most versatile auto-pistol cartridge around. It is essentially a larger bore, hopped up .357 Magnum (when using propperly loaded rounds such a DoubleTap). A 200 gr pill @ more than 1200 fps, is enough to manage almost any task that a service pistol would confront. It is a true 100 yards capable cartridge. Not to mention, using a G20 one has 15 + 1 of these bad boys on tap. That is far superior to any 357 revolver. Why not 10mm? Because people are too driven by gun rags more than their own ballistic research, and of coarse cost and availibility of DECENT ammo (most availble 10 loads are loaded down to 40 Short & Weak velos).

(PS: Check out my new avatar )



+1

10mm will get you to 100+ yrd w/ ~2 or so in drop--h/w, for the longer ranges, you are best off sticking to a RIFLE cartrige

thats another thing, full power ammo is expensive and tougher to get

i doubt that the 10mm has ever been used/tested/documented on people thru shootings (unless they were an obscure private indiviual somewhere out there.....)

as to the AR, i guess it deals w/ ammo availablity and price equaling a lack of demand (there are custom gun makers out there that do pistol caliber conversions on ARs--i remember one in FL that did a nice one in .357sig.....)

not only is ammo more 'valuable' it also hurts the wrist after a while
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 9:24:44 AM EDT
I always thought the ultimate sub-gun would be an 8-10.5" barreled 10mm AR.


Now if someone would make a lower that could use G20 mags...we could be in business.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 9:31:26 AM EDT
HK does or did make an MP5 in 10mm.

I have a G20 and load my own.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 9:41:07 AM EDT
I bought a Colt Delta Elite when they first came out in the 80's. For the life of me i cannot understand the complaints about recoil. I personally don't feel it's any worse than a 45.

I would love to have an MP5 10mm or better yet a UMP 10mm or better yet again, an AR ib 10mm.

Bomber
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 3:28:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I always thought the ultimate sub-gun would be an 8-10.5" barreled 10mm AR.


Now if someone would make a lower that could use G20 mags...we could be in business.



not to mention that Glock would have to come out w/ some 10mm/.45acp Hi-cap 33 rnders (or at least 27rnders)
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 3:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
I always thought the ultimate sub-gun would be an 8-10.5" barreled 10mm AR.


Now if someone would make a lower that could use G20 mags...we could be in business.



not to mention that Glock would have to come out w/ some 10mm/.45acp Hi-cap 33 rnders (or at least 27rnders)



True, but I would not mind 15 w/ +2 or 3 exts. I got 10mm fever right now!! Just came back from shooting at the range and they had a brand new Kimber Eclipse IN 10MM!
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 11:46:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 1:07:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SilverState:
sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/10mmnot40sw.jpg






So Classic!

On a side note, write O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. Let’s try to get the truth brought into the open...NO MORE ILLEGAL CONFISCATION!!!! Write, try to do Something!!!!


PS: 10mm is the SH*T!!!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:46:53 PM EDT
By the performance numbers, I really like the 10mm in full-power loads. Double Tap has a 135 grain Nosler JHP loaded at 1600 FPS. Penetrates around 10". Massive expansion and huge pressure wave, close to 400 PSI (at a standard distance of 1" from center of bullet path). This is a larger pressure wave than produced by many centerfire rifle loads.

I am hoping to try this bullet on deer this hunting season, and I predict an average drop distance of under 50 yards with broadside lung shots. For shooters with applications and risk assessments indicating optimal penetration near 10", this is a great load.

Shooters with applications and risk assessments requiring more of penetration would be well served to pick the Double Tap 10mm 165 grain Gold Dot load. This load provides good expansion and penetration with a pressure wave over 250 PSI and is the only handgun load I know of to exceed 14" of penetration and deliver a pressure wave this large.

The only thing I don't like about the 10mm is the gun selection is poor (Sig doesn't make one). I've been tempted for some time to convert a 45 Caliber Sig to .40 Cor-Bon or .40 Super just to get 10mm ballistics. The 10mm is the perfect answer to the debates about weight vs velocity, energy vs. penetration, blah, blah, blah. The 10mm delivers about as much as possible in a service caliber semi-auto. (Glocks and 1911 variants just aren't to my liking.)

Of course, recoil is stiff, and ammo costs a bit more, but for those who can handle these facts, the 10mm should be the top performer in semi-autos with ammo properly chosen for the desired level of penetration.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 9:13:21 PM EDT
If only Sig would produce the 220ST in 10mm...
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:11:05 PM EDT

If only Sig would produce the 220ST in 10mm...


While we're dreaming how about a 10mm H&K USP?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bhart89:

If only Sig would produce the 220ST in 10mm...


While we're dreaming how about a 10mm H&K USP?



I'd cough out the $$$ for a usp if it was available. I just didn't think that a 9/40/45 is worth that much since I can just pick up a beretta in 9/40 and a 1911 for much much cheaper
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 4:35:17 PM EDT
Since both Dalphon and Olympic Arms make 10mm uppers it wouldn't be that hard to make a really sweet 10mm SBR. According to Sierra the 10mm in a 10" T/C Contender barrel vs. a 14" barrel is only about 70 fps. So make the upper a 10" barrel to gain between 300 & 400 fps over a 1911, get a 0% machined lower and build it to take M3 grease gun magazines without any modifications or adaptors. The machine work isn't that involved if you've got very much experience at all with machine tools. The mags are cheap and plentiful. Since the overall length of a 10mm is only .030" longer than a .45 ACP it shouldn't be a problem in that regard, but the feedlips on the mags might take a little manipulating. Out of curiousity I loaded one of my .45 ACP mags with 10mm ammo and it didn't present any problems as far as fit goes.

As long as we're in dream land I thought that I'd throw mine in.
Robert
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:09:58 PM EDT
0% percent lower huh...never thought of that. But that is definately a huge PITA unless you already have the tools/machines and the know-how.

But interesting idea. Can you SBR a 0% lower without the Form1?
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:14:43 PM EDT
Firstly, Dalphon was reselling OAI uppers, and they are no longer in business.

Secondly, theres no way in hell ya'll could broach a mag well on your own.

Thirdly, you would have to Form 1 a homemade weapon.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 5:15:21 PM EDT
Why would anyone in their right mind want a 10MM?



More for me!

Danny

P.S. Hard shooters with full power loads. Not for the weak and timid.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 8:04:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Firstly, Dalphon was reselling OAI uppers, and they are no longer in business.

Secondly, theres no way in hell ya'll could broach a mag well on your own.

Thirdly, you would have to Form 1 a homemade weapon.



I found the Dalphon site & had no idea that they weren't still in business. Their website is still up and running though and even without them there's always Olympic Arms.

Secondly, broaching isn't a problem for me. Whatever machinery I don't have in my own little shop I can use next summer when I'm in Trinidad taking some more gunsmithing courses. There are probably ways around having to broach if it was, but I think that it would be a real pain in the ass.

Third, homemade weapons don't have to have any paperwork, or even a serial number for that matter. The exception would be an SBR, SBS, or suppressed weapon of course. All I'd need to do in the regard is put a serial number on my dream gun and use it with a 16" barrel until the Form 1 comes back from the ATF, then cut, crown, and re-thread the barrel for a flash suppressor.

The only real question is how many more projects can I take on! Robert
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:43:35 AM EDT
I hate to hijack but, will the new CZ-USA DWesson
have quality control issues? I am considering putting down a deposit on one.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:04:14 AM EDT
Is this something that Dan Wesson is bringing out? I haven't heard about it, but I have had experience with Damn Wesson a couple of years ago when I ordered a custom revolver. Biggest piece of junk that I ever had the misfortune to own. It went back to them 3 times and then I finally sold it at a HUGE loss just to get it out of my house. If there's ANY connection to Damn Wesson STAY AWAY!!!!

Robert
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 10:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bhart89:

If only Sig would produce the 220ST in 10mm...


While we're dreaming how about a 10mm H&K USP?



Make that a 10mm MK23
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