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Posted: 3/26/2006 10:04:33 AM EDT
It's one of the more popular pistol rounds in America, but is almost obscure everywhere else. Why?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:07:34 AM EDT








Seriously though it is an American Caliber and not supported by any other militarys.  Most countries won't allow thier citizens subjects to shoot/own military calibers.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:37:25 AM EDT
Only America had the BS dime novels and TV westerns about the wonderful .45 L Colt cartridge. The truth is, more Indians and bad guys died from falling off their horses in a drunken stupor than were ever dropped on the spot by the .45 L Colt, or by the .44 Cap and Ball, either.  That baloney is what led to the developement of the .45 ACP cartridge, and then tens of millions of lies later, both by war vets and the media, the public is thoroughly brainwashed about the "horrible" effectiveness of the .45 ACP. The truth is that when you shoot critters with .45 fmj miitary ammo, they run off a lot more often and a lot further, than if you'd got the same hit on the same critter with a good 9mm jhp load (of which there aint very many, with CorBon leading the pack).
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:45:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Only America had the BS dime novels and TV westerns about the wonderful .45 L Colt cartridge. The truth is, more Indians and bad guys died from falling off their horses in a drunken stupor than were ever dropped on the spot by the .45 L Colt, or by the .44 Cap and Ball, either.  That baloney is what led to the developement of the .45 ACP cartridge, and then tens of millions of lies later, both by war vets and the media, the public is thoroughly brainwashed about the "horrible" effectiveness of the .45 ACP. The truth is that when you shoot critters with .45 fmj miitary ammo, they run off a lot more often and a lot further, than if you'd got the same hit on the same critter with a good 9mm jhp load (of which there aint very many, with CorBon leading the pack).



That you Gunkid?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:49:38 AM EDT
.45 is popular up here amoungst the cool, manly guys...
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:50:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911a1_45acp:

Originally Posted By unusual:
Only America had the BS dime novels and TV westerns about the wonderful .45 L Colt cartridge. The truth is, more Indians and bad guys died from falling off their horses in a drunken stupor than were ever dropped on the spot by the .45 L Colt, or by the .44 Cap and Ball, either.  That baloney is what led to the developement of the .45 ACP cartridge, and then tens of millions of lies later, both by war vets and the media, the public is thoroughly brainwashed about the "horrible" effectiveness of the .45 ACP. The truth is that when you shoot critters with .45 fmj miitary ammo, they run off a lot more often and a lot further, than if you'd got the same hit on the same critter with a good 9mm jhp load (of which there aint very many, with CorBon leading the pack).



That you Gunkid?



OH yeah and trolling as usual.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:55:45 AM EDT
b/c its good at what its suppost to do....
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:09:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Only America had the BS dime novels and TV westerns about the wonderful .45 L Colt cartridge. The truth is, more Indians and bad guys died from falling off their horses in a drunken stupor than were ever dropped on the spot by the .45 L Colt, or by the .44 Cap and Ball, either.  That baloney is what led to the developement of the .45 ACP cartridge, and then tens of millions of lies later, both by war vets and the media, the public is thoroughly brainwashed about the "horrible" effectiveness of the .45 ACP. The truth is that when you shoot critters with .45 fmj miitary ammo, they run off a lot more often and a lot further, than if you'd got the same hit on the same critter with a good 9mm jhp load (of which there aint very many, with CorBon leading the pack).



Try a good .45 JHP, comparing .45 FMJ to 9mm JHP is apples and oranges.  Both calibers work the same, all service pistol calibers offer very similar performance in measurable mediums, such as gelatin.  There are no "magic bullets".  Pistol FMJ sucks because it overpenetrates (icepicks it's way through the target) causing minimal tissue damage.  Of course, a lot has to be chalked up to shot placement.  Most people simply can't place pistol rounds effectively when under the stress of a life and death situation.  Not to mention that military pistol training is woefully inadequate and has little to no bearing on what happens in an actual confrontation.  If you talk to anybody who's really BTDT in terms of warfare, they will tell you that if you're using a pistol, it means you're in deep shit.  
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:13:32 AM EDT
'Cause we have great big, corn fed, 250lb hoss' running the mean streets here, and the rest of the world is full of skinny little girly men that can be stopped with a .32.  

You need a .45 to stop a football player, but only a 9mm to stop a soccer player.  



P.S.,
Gasoline, meet fire.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:21:47 AM EDT
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it?  LOL.  The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in flesh, with the exception of the CorBon 160 gr PowRBall,and maybe the plus P  185 gr jhp's (which have way too much recoil for adequate control in light, compact ccw pistols.) The reason some guys think that they can "control" such guns and loads is they lack electronic shooting timers and any clue about how fast they ought to be getting repeat hits (ie, sub .20 second, instead of .40+second).
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it?  LOL.  The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in flesh, with the exception of the CorBon 160 gr PowRBall,and maybe the plus P  185 gr jhp's (which have way too much recoil for adequate control in light, compact ccw pistols.) The reason some guys think that they can "control" such guns and loads is they lack electronic shooting timers and any clue about how fast they ought to be getting repeat hits (ie, sub .20 second, instead of .40+second).



People who choose defensive weapons based soley on  stories, legends, reputations or anything of the like clearly have a problem with believing everything they read or hear.  How would you really know how .45 JHP performs in flesh ?  You're not going to know unless you conduct or witness some actual testing, and nobody has been shooting cadavers.  So, until somehow society gets over the ethical ramifications of shooting up dead human bodies, gelatin is all we have in terms of a test medium.  Animal anatomy differs significantly from humans, therefore what works well on pigs, deer or whatever may not work the same way on a man.  

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:38:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By die-tryin:

Originally Posted By 1911a1_45acp:

Originally Posted By unusual:
Only America had the BS dime novels and TV westerns about the wonderful .45 L Colt cartridge. The truth is, more Indians and bad guys died from falling off their horses in a drunken stupor than were ever dropped on the spot by the .45 L Colt, or by the .44 Cap and Ball, either.  That baloney is what led to the developement of the .45 ACP cartridge, and then tens of millions of lies later, both by war vets and the media, the public is thoroughly brainwashed about the "horrible" effectiveness of the .45 ACP. The truth is that when you shoot critters with .45 fmj miitary ammo, they run off a lot more often and a lot further, than if you'd got the same hit on the same critter with a good 9mm jhp load (of which there aint very many, with CorBon leading the pack).



That you Gunkid?



OH yeah and trolling as usual.



Jesus christ you guys will do anything to defend your precious .45. Get outside people, remember that a .45 can't be your only true love.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:39:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it?  LOL.  The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in fleshwhat a load, you know they do tune them for a wide range, speed as little to do with expansion now , with the exception of the CorBon 160 gr PowRBall,and maybe the plus P  185 gr jhp's (which have way too much recoil for adequate control in light, compact ccw pistols.) The reason some guys think that they can "control" such guns and loads is they lack electronic shooting timers and any clue about how fast they ought to be getting repeat hits (ie, sub .20 second, instead of .40+second).



your either a or a gunstore commando, you know little and talk alot
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:49:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:50:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 11:53:35 AM EDT by RABIDFOX50]

Originally Posted By unusual:
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it? LOL. The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in fleshwhat a load, you know they do tune them for a wide range, speed as little to do with expansion now




Your so much the expert on this, explain to me how my and other departments issue JHPs for our duty .45s? Hmmmmmmm...

Put the crack pipe down and step away.....!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:20:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
'Cause we have great big, corn fed, 250lb hoss' running the mean streets here, and the rest of the world is full of skinny little girly men that can be stopped with a .32.  

You need a .45 to stop a football player, but only a 9mm to stop a soccer player.  



P.S.,
Gasoline, meet fire.


    Best answer yet!!!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:34:46 PM EDT
Probably because it's a tried and true American design .
It's also large and heavy enough to carry a decent amount of energy
to the target in handgun ranges .

Is it perfect .. No , but it's good enough

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:35:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thomas_A_Anderson:
It's one of the more popular pistol rounds in America, but is almost obscure everywhere else. Why?



Same reason taht everyone else drives little mini-cars and we drive extended cab full size trucks with V-10 engines!! Cause in the USA, bigger is better! More is Better!
Why just be dead when you can be deader!!!


I think that's some of it, but also it is a uniquely American cartridge due to it's history with our military, etc.
Let's face it, we Americans are just plain different.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:12:07 PM EDT
You trying to claim that cops know jack squat about handguns, shooting, or ammo performance? What a laugh you are.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:31:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
You trying to claim that cops know jack squat about handguns, shooting, or ammo performance? What a laugh you are.



That was a bad move on your part

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:40:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 1:42:07 PM EDT by lu380]

Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
'Cause we have great big, corn fed, 250lb hoss' running the mean streets here, and the rest of the world is full of skinny little girly men that can be stopped with a .32.  

You need a .45 to stop a football player, but only a 9mm to stop a soccer player.



P.S.,
Gasoline, meet fire.



That sums it up!

PS:  Thanks for the sigline material!!!!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:59:05 PM EDT
Maybe because the 1911 was the only commonly available decent auto made in the U.S.A. for several decades.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:06:39 PM EDT
What's that got to do with anything? besides, there was the Remington 380, and the browning 380's and .32's, imported P35's, some of them Inglis's, made in Canada.  the LW commander first came out in 9mm, in the early 1950's, you know. The gun is not the caliber.  At least, not in the case of the 1911.  It was available in .38 Super in the 30's.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:19:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
What's that got to do with anything? besides, there was the Remington 380, and the browning 380's and .32's, imported P35's, some of them Inglis's, made in Canada.  the LW commander first came out in 9mm, in the early 1950's, you know. The gun is not the caliber.  At least, not in the case of the 1911.  It was available in .38 Super in the 30's.



.32s and .380s were never really considered combat rounds in the U.S. I know other calibers are available in the 1911, but 99.5% of them are .45ACP.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:26:55 PM EDT
well, more like 85%, but that's just based on ignorance and as I said, brainwashing of the public.  Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Charley Askins are all on record as saying a 230 gr .45 ball rd didn't amount to a hill of beans as a manstopper. I was shocked myself, when I first started shooting chucks and coons with it, in the late .60's, to see them run off with chest hits, most of the time.  I was aghast that Cooper and Taylor, et al, would dare to lie so much to everybody, but since I"ve been on the Net, I see that nearly everyone would rather believe bs than check out anything for themselves.  Especially if it involves the slightest bit of difficulty, which taking lots of critters with a .45 most certainly does involve.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:39:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 2:49:02 PM EDT by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By unusual:
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it?  LOL.  The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in flesh, with the exception of the CorBon 160 gr PowRBall,and maybe the plus P  185 gr jhp's (which have way too much recoil for adequate control in light, compact ccw pistols.) The reason some guys think that they can "control" such guns and loads is they lack electronic shooting timers and any clue about how fast they ought to be getting repeat hits (ie, sub .20 second, instead of .40+second).




Same guy who says how hard to control a govt model 45 is.....

Put down the guns and ammo magazine and try to shoot a real firearm sometime.  Maybe you can get your mom to let you rent one at a range some time.  


Now on to the original question.   If you look at some other countries cartridges like the .32 and .380 are considered adequate for police duty use.    I just dont see that happening here.   I'm sure they thought the .357 mag was serious overkill.    In fact I'd bet you could find a bunch of cartridges that are popular here but not overseas.   I seriously doubt .40S&W is common overseas either.    ( who knows?)
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:45:31 PM EDT
You don't need a 1911.
All you need is a 10/22 mounted on an assault wheelbarrow.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:45:34 PM EDT
All pistol rounds are weak, but some are weaker.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:46:48 PM EDT
The .45 ACP is for up close and personal, its big ugly and slow. I personally would like to have more lead than a nine millipeter.I dont know what other countries use, it doesnt matter when we do all the heavy lifting!hug.gif
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:51:07 PM EDT
It could be at one time over in the European countries no one was aloud calibers no larger than 32s and .380s
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:53:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By taverndog:
It could be at one time over in the European countries no one was aloud calibers no larger than 32s and .380s



In many European countries, the serfs may not own handguns in "military" calibers.
So if the military uses that caliber, you are SOL.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:59:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 3:01:28 PM EDT by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
'Cause we have great big, corn fed, 250lb hoss' running the mean streets here, and the rest of the world is full of skinny little girly men that can be stopped with a .32.  

You need a .45 to stop a football player, but only a 9mm to stop a soccer player.  



P.S.,
Gasoline, meet fire.



For a long, long tme, American cops did just fine against those strapping big corn-fed football players with .38s.  The US military adopted the .45ACP diring the Philippine Insurrection because it was found that a .38 was inadequate against a charging Moro.  

The Brit's had similar experience, and stuck with the .455 Webley as long as they were mainly fighting determined brown men armed primarily with knives and spears, but when it became clear that their wars were going to be primarily against Europeans, they decided a .38 would suffice.

And for the record, the .32 ACP/7.65 Browning/7.65x17 has proved more than adequate to put down European soccer players, not to mention Archdukes and Führers.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:05:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 3:06:47 PM EDT by 308Sako]
What I do know is that I put a "Black Talon" into the chest of an adult male approx 165 LBS and the recovered bullet was reloadable, as in UN EXPANDED.  I would not use less caliber, but now pray for my Hydroshocks.   Should I mention it was a whitetailed deer... range 30 yards.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:18:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By unusual:
yeah, but the .45's so called "rep" was not built in jhp's, now was it?  LOL.  The .45 jhp's are typically going too slow to expand reliably in flesh, with the exception of the CorBon 160 gr PowRBall,and maybe the plus P  185 gr jhp's (which have way too much recoil for adequate control in light, compact ccw pistols.) The reason some guys think that they can "control" such guns and loads is they lack electronic shooting timers and any clue about how fast they ought to be getting repeat hits (ie, sub .20 second, instead of .40+second).




Same guy who says how hard to control a govt model 45 is.....

Put down the guns and ammo magazine and try to shoot a real firearm sometime.  Maybe you can get your mom to let you rent one at a range some time.  


Now on to the original question.   If you look at some other countries cartridges like the .32 and .380 are considered adequate for police duty use.    I just dont see that happening here.   I'm sure they thought the .357 mag was serious overkill.    In fact I'd bet you could find a bunch of cartridges that are popular here but not overseas.   I seriously doubt .40S&W is common overseas either.    ( who knows?)



.40 is common enough in countries with police forces that try to imitate American police and in countries where .40 S&W pistols are made for export.  The French have police units that still use .357 revolvers.  As for .45's, there's probably a good chance of encountering it in Spain and certain South American countries, considering that they have had a long history of using 1911 copies.  9mm is still the most common worldwide, and civilian shooters in Europe are using "non-military" cartridges such as 9x21 IMI, which replicate the ballistics of the 9x19.  .32's and .380's are still quite common in Europe.  
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:20:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 308Sako:
What I do know is that I put a "Black Talon" into the chest of an adult male approx 165 LBS and the recovered bullet was reloadable, as in UN EXPANDED.  I would not use less caliber, but now pray for my Hydroshocks.   Should I mention it was a whitetailed deer... range 30 yards.



9mm or .45 ?  Probably lost too much velocity over the distance.  Was it "new" or "old" Black Talon ?  
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 308Sako:
What I do know is that I put a "Black Talon" into the chest of an adult male approx 165 LBS and the recovered bullet was reloadable, as in UN EXPANDED.  I would not use less caliber, but now pray for my Hydroshocks.   Should I mention it was a whitetailed deer... range 30 yards.



Apples and Oranges.
People ain't deer.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:24:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 3:25:53 PM EDT by unusual]
I can run a 6 second el pres, any time, with .45 ball and a gov't model. Can you say the same? all hits in the  c zone or better, any day of the week, and over half in the A zone, 10 yds, the full 3 yds between targets, and starting facing uprange, hands at shoulder height.  I never said the GM was hard to control, you can't read, that's all. I said that hot loads in lw, compact ccw guns are hard to control, BIG difference, but then you can't even read. Virtually nobody ccw's a GM, they just LIE about it.

The .45 ACP was never used against the Moros. The Philippine Insurrection was OVER with before the 1911 saw general issue. The .45 L Colt used then didn't stop the juramentados', either. Neither did the 30-40 Krag rifle. About the only thing that did reliably stop them was blowing their heads off with a Winchester 97 pump and 00 Buckshot.

No, men aint deer, but if a jhp doesn't expand reliably in animals, only a fool thinks it will do so in men,and if it doesn't expand, a jhp might as well be fmj ball ammo, with its pathetic level of performance.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:26:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
I can run a 6 second el pres, any time, with .45 ball and a gov't model. Can you say the same? all hits in the  c zone or better, any day of the week, and over half in the A zone, 10 yds, the full 3 yds between targets, and starting facing uprange, hands at shoulder height.  I never said the GM was hard to control, you can't read, that's all. I said that hot loads in lw, compact ccw guns are hard to control, BIG difference, but then you can't even read. Virtually nobody ccw's a GM, they just LIE about it.

The .45 ACP was never used against the Moros. The Philippine Insurrection was OVER with before the 1911 saw general issue. The .45 L Colt used then didn't stop the juramentados', either. Neither did the 30-40 Krag rifle. About the only thing that did reliably stop them was blowing their heads off with a Winchester 97 pump and 00 Buckshot.



You've got to be (Gun)kidding.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:29:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
b/c its good at what its suppost to do....


Yep, it's very good at not being a rifle.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:40:08 PM EDT
Europe is generally peaceful (for the past 60 years) and so there is little day-to-day motivation to worry about handgun stopping power.  The cops in Euro just don't have to shoot that many people.  Here in America, we tend to have a bit more violent populace; we've therefore come to realize that you might want more punch than a 9mm has to offer.  Even expanded, a 9mm ain't much bigger than a .45 fmj.  And since the rest of the world tends to buy guns from big gun makers in Europe (and Israel), they use 9mm.  In South America, however, the cops use rifles like cops in America use sidearms.  So they don't really bitch about 9mm stopping power, because they almost always shoot the badguys with 5.56 or 7.62.  However, if you go to the Phillipines, lots and lots of people still use the .45.  They love it.      
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:40:33 PM EDT
.45 ACP Old model talon, Sig P220 with Barsto barrel
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:46:31 PM EDT
The .45 is the only round that can stop a charging bear at 25 yards yet you can catch it in your hand at 250 yards.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:54:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By 308Sako:
What I do know is that I put a "Black Talon" into the chest of an adult male approx 165 LBS and the recovered bullet was reloadable, as in UN EXPANDED.  I would not use less caliber, but now pray for my Hydroshocks.   Should I mention it was a whitetailed deer... range 30 yards.



Apples and Oranges.
People ain't deer.



+ 230gr
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:07:10 PM EDT
Unusual is trolling as usual. However, none of the pistol rounds are completely effective man stoppers. That is a given and a well known thing in the gun world.

I think is years previous the .45 excelled over the others because there was no real attempt at defense bullet development.  I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm or a .45. Hell a .22 is better than nothing.

For the record I believe the natives during the Phillipines were doping themselves so it wouldn't suprise that rifle, pistol or shotgun that were non headshots did not stop them. It is well known of people on pcp, meth etc are able to keep fighting after being shot.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:54:21 PM EDT
Yeah, it would be a better manstopper if you could catch it in your hand at 100 yards...
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:48:37 PM EDT

What's that got to do with anything? besides, there was the Remington 380, and the browning 380's and .32's, imported P35's, some of them Inglis's, made in Canada. the LW commander first came out in 9mm, in the early 1950's, you know. The gun is not the caliber. At least, not in the case of the 1911. It was available in .38 Super in the 30's.


Is this ever going to be banned. Every word hes ever posted has been bs our been set up to throw gas on the fire.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:03:27 PM EDT
9MM may expand ?
But the 45 doesn't shrink!!!!!




Food for thought.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:45:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 6:46:23 PM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By ThreeMan:
9MM may expand ?
But the 45 doesn't shrink!!!!!




Food for thought.



This W is about 1/10th of an inch wide. That is the same amount of difference in the diameter of a .45 and a 9mm.

Food for thought.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:00:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
People who choose defensive weapons based soley on  stories, legends, reputations or anything of the like clearly have a problem with believing everything they read or hear.  How would you really know how .45 JHP performs in flesh ?  You're not going to know unless you conduct or witness some actual testing, and nobody has been shooting cadavers.  So, until somehow society gets over the ethical ramifications of shooting up dead human bodies, gelatin is all we have in terms of a test medium.  Animal anatomy differs significantly from humans, therefore what works well on pigs, deer or whatever may not work the same way on a man.  

i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/Bob_2002/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg



The above emphasizes how all pistol caliber rounds are relatively anemic.  When selecting a home defense or concealed carry pistol, instructors such as Jeff Carpenter believe magazine capacity is tantamount to caliber.  To paraphrase Mr. Carpenter, I have never seen a gunfight that would have ended differently had a larger pistol caliber been used.  

Now of course, there are boundaries; Mr. Carpenter is not advocating that you should use a pistol in .17 HMR or .22 LR because of its inherently high magazine capacity; that would be absurd.  Rather, it is relative; for instance, Mr. Carpenter has a preference for 9mm Glocks (i.e., G17 or G19) as opposed to the lower capacity M1911 chambered in .45 ACP.

Justin
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:40:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
I can run a 6 second el pres, any time, with .45 ball and a gov't model. Can you say the same? all hits in the  c zone or better, any day of the week, and over half in the A zone, 10 yds, the full 3 yds between targets, and starting facing uprange, hands at shoulder height.  I never said the GM was hard to control, you can't read, that's all. I said that hot loads in lw, compact ccw guns are hard to control, BIG difference, but then you can't even read. Virtually nobody ccw's a GM, they just LIE about it.

The .45 ACP was never used against the Moros. The Philippine Insurrection was OVER with before the 1911 saw general issue. The .45 L Colt used then didn't stop the juramentados', either. Neither did the 30-40 Krag rifle. About the only thing that did reliably stop them was blowing their heads off with a Winchester 97 pump and 00 Buckshot.

No, men aint deer, but if a jhp doesn't expand reliably in animals, only a fool thinks it will do so in men,and if it doesn't expand, a jhp might as well be fmj ball ammo, with its pathetic level of performance.




Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:09:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By unusual:
I can run a 6 second el pres, any time, with .45 ball and a gov't model. Can you say the same? all hits in the  c zone or better, any day of the week, and over half in the A zone, 10 yds, the full 3 yds between targets, and starting facing uprange, hands at shoulder height.  I never said the GM was hard to control, you can't read, that's all. I said that hot loads in lw, compact ccw guns are hard to control, BIG difference, but then you can't even read. Virtually nobody ccw's a GM, they just LIE about it.

The .45 ACP was never used against the Moros. The Philippine Insurrection was OVER with before the 1911 saw general issue. The .45 L Colt used then didn't stop the juramentados', either. Neither did the 30-40 Krag rifle. About the only thing that did reliably stop them was blowing their heads off with a Winchester 97 pump and 00 Buckshot.

No, men aint deer, but if a jhp doesn't expand reliably in animals, only a fool thinks it will do so in men,and if it doesn't expand, a jhp might as well be fmj ball ammo, with its pathetic level of performance.







+1, I guess he ignored the thread in General where PattyMcM was looking for advice on using a full-size 1911 as a CCW.  He's right that it was the .45 LC, among others (.38's, too) that didn't work so well on the Moros.  On the other hand, .45 LC in it's military loading used in the old days offers similar ballistics to the .45 ACP, however, the .45 LC used a LRN bullet as opposed to FMJ.  Oh, and I'm not sure that racegun stuff has any relevance on self-defense.  
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