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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 8/13/2009 11:05:50 PM EST

Thanks for info and opinion based on experiences!
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 12:01:11 AM EST
Some folks love to hunt for store bought rounds and pay twice as much to shoot.

I own a comp sig with the .357 ported slide and the .40 carry slide. It's a wonderful show gun. Never bother shooting it because the GLOCK 35 and 1911's are more fun and cheaper for me to shoot. Not to mention I don't have to mess with twice the case prep to reload.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 12:27:03 AM EST
Doc Roberts says it mimics 9x19 in flesh. But I've seen it tear through car bodies. Which is most important to you? It's also the lodest service pistol cartridge extant.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 1:19:55 AM EST
My understanding is that the .357 sig has greater long range accuracy and is one of the premier handgun calibers firing through glass.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 6:08:29 AM EST
Despite the name, 357 Sig uses .355 diameter bullets, just like 9mm Luger. It was developed by necking down a 40 S&W and to seat 9mm bullets.

9mm, being a small, high velocity cartridge, has tremendous penetration. 357 Sig drives these same bullets even faster, so it'll get ludicrous penetration with FMJ. For SD, hollowpoints would be mandatory to limit this. On the other hand, if you need to shoot through barriers, auto glass, and such, it's a great choice.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 9:43:57 AM EST
The key to performance through glass is bullet weight. Through sheet steel it's velocity.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 10:48:20 AM EST
I love my .357Sig... Yes the recoil is a little more not unmanageable at all, the rounds are a little higher in price, and the amount of pistols that are offered in it are no where near as many as 9mm Para and 45ACP... But It has high velocity, lots of energy, and good mag capacity. I personally carry a G32 w/Night sights as my pistol in my truck and a G27 with a .357Sig barrel for running at night. If I want to plink with the pistol I throw my 40SW barrel in and go to town. But it all comes down to what the end user is comfortable with and likes. My other like is 45ACP G30.

Compared to all other rounds it has more speed and energy then the 9mm Para and 40SW, compared to the 45ACP well it is a 45ACP . If you want to see differences look up ballistic gels on all those calibers that will give you a better idea of what you are looking for.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 11:25:39 AM EST
It does absolutely nothing that isn't done by 9mm.

Modern bonded core SD rounds penetrate through car doors and windshields more reliably than anything. The rounds that deflect the least when going through a windshield are the heavier rounds(not the faster ones).
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 11:42:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 11:58:32 AM EST
it stopped me from having those stupid nightmares where there is a BG attacking my daughter and I pull the trigger on my 9 or 45 and the bullet just falls out the end of the barrel. I have never had that dream again. plus it has worked great on killing pit bulls
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 12:02:02 PM EST
Not liking .357Sig that much here.

You just don't get enough for the trade-offs. It's not all that much "better", ballistically, than say .40 or 9mm, yet it's a hell of alot louder, and is somewhat snappy with the recoil.

That loudness is a big thing, I feel, in defensive situations. Not gonna be wasting time putting in ear pro, ya know?

It's not a bad cartridge, and it does shine in the area of barrier penetration..................just doesn't seem like it offers that much more than the other standard "service calibers".
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 1:53:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By littlejerry:
It does absolutely nothing that isn't done by 9mm.


penetration is better through solid objects. If you were a highway patrol officer and chances were likely that if you were involved in a gun fight, you would most likely be shooting through auto doors and glass, why would you want to skimp?

Link Posted: 8/14/2009 4:14:44 PM EST
Love my Glock 31, bought it for a carry gun while back country flyfishing ( non Grizzly ). High Velocity, flat shooting with good penetration. Fit the bill for what I wanted better than 9mm/40, 20 SF would have been better but wasn't available at the time.

Ammo isn't that expensive compared to buying high end +P+ 9mm and atleast you can find 357 SIG ammo.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 4:45:39 PM EST
I just don't understand why people don't think that added velocity is a good thing. If that were the case, wouldn't everyone be shooting the .380 in their duty pistols? It's just a slightly slower 9mm, right?

Higher velocity with the same bullet weight equals more energy. More energy can translate into more ability to expand or penetrate (or both).

Yes, it is louder - but it is much moreso to bystanders than the shooter. I have both and I am issued the .357 at work. I can't tell a difference while shooting them, but sure can when I'm running the range. Recoil to me is about the same as the 9mm, and less than the .40.

I have become a fan of the .357 sig round through years of actual use. I have noticed that (in the Glock anyway) it doesn't seem to have the same problems with malfunctions when you add a light into the mix that the .40 does. The grip size and capacity are smaller and higher respectively. In my glocks, I give up two rounds for what I believe to be a slightly more effective caliber. I can live with that.

But it all comes down to if the ammo is available to you. It is to me. In fact, it's easier to get here that .40, .45 or 9mm. You can kill paper, people, and most anything else with any of them. But my guess is the people who "are not fans" have never actually shot the sig round much or at all.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 9:46:44 PM EST
Compared to 9mm: More penetration with the penetrating rounds, and more punch/stopping power(whatever you'd like to call it) with expanding rounds. In the classic sense, it's like 38 special vs. 357 magnum.
Compared to 40: a little less recoil.
Compared to 45: more capacity.

Overall, not a bad caliber at all. You can't go wrong with it for any purpose.
The prices for good ammo is pretty much the same in all semi-auto handgun calibers, 357 SIG may be harder to find regularly, but nowadays with the shortage of ammo, it is actually more likely to find it than 9mm, 40 or 45.

With the modern ammo, the caliber of choice does not make much difference, they all meet the MINIMUM requirements for personal defense purposes, the main difference is in pushing the bullet to it's MAXIMUM limits, if there was a special purpose for that.
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 5:01:30 PM EST
I think that it is nice to have that extra ability to penetrate barriers, but it is still less good at this than the 7.62x25 round.
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 6:56:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
I think that it is nice to have that extra ability to penetrate barriers, but it is still less good at this than the 7.62x25 round.


Better

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=577709
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 11:55:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 3:46:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mateba:
Originally Posted By max229:
I think that it is nice to have that extra ability to penetrate barriers, but it is still less good at this than the 7.62x25 round.


Better

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=577709


Worse

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

.357mag can be loaded hotter than .357sig as well, but for this case lets just call them even. On the next page, the Tok penetrated what even the .357mag could not.
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 4:12:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Infallible:
Originally Posted By littlejerry:
It does absolutely nothing that isn't done by 9mm.


penetration is better through solid objects. If you were a highway patrol officer and chances were likely that if you were involved in a gun fight, you would most likely be shooting through auto doors and glass, why would you want to skimp?



It's not "skimping"....

A lot of testing has been done through various bits of automobiles, and as yet no measurable performance difference has been shown between good .357 sig loads and good 9mm loads. Thus what you're "skimping" on is capacity in the weapon.


So are you saying the velocity plays little to no difference in the reliability of "good" ammunition? I don't understand why anyone would purposely want less velocity out of a handgun round. I would hardly call two less rounds skimping.
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 5:02:30 PM EST
Keep in mind that 357 Sig sometimes penetrates less than 9mm because they use different bullets in it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2009 6:16:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2009 7:03:24 AM EST
The .357sig is any better than any of the other common service cartridges. Its hard intermediate barrier penetration [i]may]/i] be slightly better than the others. I have shot various cars, and if all goes well I'll soon shoot an 80 Chevy pickup. The .357sig has never made a huge difference in the past. Unlike most shooters, I am concerned with defeating both and soft intermediate barriers. I am also willing to accept that all pistol rounds have plusses or minuses. For me though, 9mm(147gr Winchester Ranger Talons RA9T) and .45acp(230gr+P Federal Tactical Bonded) represent my choices, as to me they have the fewest cons and the most pros.

In the end, the .357sig is what it is, just another service pistol caliber. It doesnt posess "lightning bolt stopping power" like one idiot gunwriter states. That same idiot gunwriter also perpetuates the biggest myth of the .357sig, the infamous guy hiding in a semi cab. The .45acp some deputies were using didnt get the bad guy, but the .357sig the trooper used did. Its hogwash. Those .45acp firing deputies were at the front of the truck, and the trooper was on the side. Not even .308Win was goona beat that enginbe block. Not only that, but the bad guy did have several hits on him from those .45acp, and several from the troopers .357sig. The guy died several hours later. But all that is conveniently left out. Need I mention a pursuit involving TXDPS chasing a violent felon into New Mexico, once in NM, the chase got nasty, and a trooper sunk 6 125gr Speer Gold Dots from his service P226 into the bad guys chest. The bad guys trial will begin soon.
Link Posted: 8/19/2009 7:35:32 AM EST
For me, it was choice between 147gr 9mm or 125gr .357 SIG. Winchester's website shows a 360 fps difference and 186 ft-lbs in energy difference at the muzzle. The two rounds close the gap after 50 yards with the 9mm round showing more energy at 100 yards.

I went with the .357
Link Posted: 8/19/2009 8:52:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By beavo451:
For me, it was choice between 147gr 9mm or 125gr .357 SIG. Winchester's website shows a 360 fps difference and 186 ft-lbs in energy difference at the muzzle. The two rounds close the gap after 50 yards with the 9mm round showing more energy at 100 yards.

I went with the .357

Energy doesnt mean jack when it comes to pistol rounds. Science has proven this. Penetration, expansion rule.
Link Posted: 8/19/2009 6:33:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2009 6:34:28 PM EST by Infallible]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Infallible:
So are you saying the velocity plays little to no difference in the reliability of "good" ammunition? I don't understand why anyone would purposely want less velocity out of a handgun round. I would hardly call two less rounds skimping.


If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the ammo will go bang, velocity plays no part in it. If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the round will reliably penetrate to acceptable depths and expand consistently, not really. Bullets are designed to perform within a certain velocity range. If you go much above or below that velocity then the round won't offer optimal performance. Velocity is a factor in how a given cartridge will perform, but it isn't an end in and of itself.

In testing and in real life use, .357 sig has demonstrated no measurable advantage over good 9mm loads....so the choice is between 9mm-like performance with less capacity or 9mm-like performance with more capacity. I'd rather have the extra capacity, lower training costs, and wider range of good platforms for the 9mm than the extra velocity of the .357 sig.


Hmm interesting. The only first hand experience I have is speaking with the troopers who are issued them and reading what the gun writers wrote when it first debuted. As a fan of the .357 Mag I was instantly a fan of the .357 sig pushing similar velocities out of a regular framed semi-auto. Unfortunately with the round not catching on as well as I had hoped, I stuck to my 9mms and .45acps. Looks like I made the right choice. FWIW I carry a 1911.
Link Posted: 8/20/2009 1:14:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By Infallible:
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Infallible:
So are you saying the velocity plays little to no difference in the reliability of "good" ammunition? I don't understand why anyone would purposely want less velocity out of a handgun round. I would hardly call two less rounds skimping.


If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the ammo will go bang, velocity plays no part in it. If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the round will reliably penetrate to acceptable depths and expand consistently, not really. Bullets are designed to perform within a certain velocity range. If you go much above or below that velocity then the round won't offer optimal performance. Velocity is a factor in how a given cartridge will perform, but it isn't an end in and of itself.

In testing and in real life use, .357 sig has demonstrated no measurable advantage over good 9mm loads....so the choice is between 9mm-like performance with less capacity or 9mm-like performance with more capacity. I'd rather have the extra capacity, lower training costs, and wider range of good platforms for the 9mm than the extra velocity of the .357 sig.


Hmm interesting. The only first hand experience I have is speaking with the troopers who are issued them and reading what the gun writers wrote when it first debuted. As a fan of the .357 Mag I was instantly a fan of the .357 sig pushing similar velocities out of a regular framed semi-auto. Unfortunately with the round not catching on as well as I had hoped, I stuck to my 9mms and .45acps. Looks like I made the right choice. FWIW I carry a 1911.


FWIW PISTOL caliber does not matter . . . .at all! Just ask Jack Bauer, specially in those tense life threatening situations he was in, never did he pause after taking the bad guy's gun and say "huh I'm not using this pipsqueak insert caliber here" before shooting the other bad guy!
Link Posted: 8/20/2009 1:15:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2009 1:16:21 AM EST by jbj16]
double post
Link Posted: 8/20/2009 3:40:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2009 9:44:14 AM EST
I don't want to use a necked-down pistol cartridge.

I have standardized on 9mm and 45ACP. If neither of those two give me what I want, then I need to use a long gun.
Link Posted: 8/21/2009 10:48:47 AM EST
Really it is not whether it is better or not it is what the OP likes and what the OP is comfortable with. I shoot everything 9mm Para, .357Sig, 40SW, 45ACP, 45GAP.... I like them all I do want to add a 10mm in there just have not got around to it. But when I personally do carry the .357Sig and 45ACP that is what I like and feel comfortable with.
Link Posted: 8/21/2009 12:39:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By Infallible:
So are you saying the velocity plays little to no difference in the reliability of "good" ammunition? I don't understand why anyone would purposely want less velocity out of a handgun round. I would hardly call two less rounds skimping.


If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the ammo will go bang, velocity plays no part in it. If by "reliability" you mean whether or not the round will reliably penetrate to acceptable depths and expand consistently, not really. Bullets are designed to perform within a certain velocity range. If you go much above or below that velocity then the round won't offer optimal performance.


Indeed.

Something else to consider: In calibrated ballistics gelatin testing, the best-performing 9mm loads are typically the slowest - standard-pressure 147gr. Those loads travelling at higher velocities - such as those +P or +P+ rated - offer inferior penetration and reduced weight retention through most all cases. (Of course, this is excepting the Barnes DPX loads, which utilize such drastically different bullet construction that such comparisons between weights and velocities are meaningless.)
Link Posted: 8/26/2009 8:53:55 PM EST
.357 Sig penetration is largely overblown and is entirely dependant upon the given media. For example, if you are shooting at a vehicle penetration will be very good, though not outside the bounds of a 9x19mm +P or even a bonded 165grn .40 projectile. However, if you are shooting at flesh penetration will likely be less than the previously mentioned rounds. The 125grn Gold Dot is the most commonly used and most proven load in this caliber. Since the Gold Dot is an efficient, modern JHP it isn't nearly as velocity dependant as older designs. Thus, the faster the bullet moves the more aggressively it expands. The more expansion you have, the less penetration you get.

This can be a good or bad thing. If you have enough penetration for lethality, then you end up with a very efficient bullet that dumps all availible energy into the target. If you read through the reports of LE shootings, you can find several in which bullets failed to exit the perp.

Also, consider that the most effective projectiles for penetrating heavy clothing are heavy/slow, not light/fast.

in 1994, when the .357 Sig was developed, velocity was a critical factor in JHP expansion. Fortunatly, this is no longer the case with modern JHP ammo. The .357 Sig is very loud, bright and agressive. Unfortunatly, it doesn't offer any notible increase in actual performance. In the vast majority of circumstances, the extra 200 FPS over a 9mm load won't mean anything.

The .357 Sig is a dinosaur. If you want real penetration stick with 147grn 9mm's.
Link Posted: 8/26/2009 9:48:58 PM EST
During the great late 2008 ammo shortages .357Sig was about the only ammo left on the wally world shelves next to the .25 ACP
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 10:46:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By novaDAK:
Originally Posted By Mateba:
Originally Posted By max229:
I think that it is nice to have that extra ability to penetrate barriers, but it is still less good at this than the 7.62x25 round.


Better

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=577709


Worse

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

.357mag can be loaded hotter than .357sig as well, but for this case lets just call them even. On the next page, the Tok penetrated what even the .357mag could not.


It depends on the medium. Different rounds penetrate different mediums to different degrees of effectiveness. For example ball 5.56 is better at penetrating steel than ball 7.62x39, but the opposite is true with brick/mortar. 5.7 is better at penetrating Kevlar than non AP 9mm, but the opposite is true in many other mediums (gelatin, tissue, wood, etc..) MV, SD, ductility of the medium, tensile strength, flexibility, etc.. all play together to create many different outcomes to different scenarios. That said, steel would be a far more likely barrier that you would come up against than a kevlar helment. My nod goes to 357 Sig.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 10:50:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 10:50:36 PM EST by Mateba]
Originally Posted By Steve_Canyon:
.357 Sig penetration is largely overblown and is entirely dependant upon the given media. For example, if you are shooting at a vehicle penetration will be very good, though not outside the bounds of a 9x19mm +P or even a bonded 165grn .40 projectile. However, if you are shooting at flesh penetration will likely be less than the previously mentioned rounds.


If you look at most of the ballistics testing out there, you will find that you are wrong. In almost every case 357 Sig will penetrate deeper than 9mm. The exceptions are oddball loads with extremely light bullets (which nobody recommends), where the high MV causes the bullet to fragment and fail to penetrate adequately.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 1:11:24 PM EST
They're all the same thing. It's like arguing which crotch rocket is faster around Laguna Seca. Sure some will be marginally quicker than other but at the end of the day the rider has the largest influence and they're all stinkin' fast.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 8:46:42 PM EST
If cost and mag capacity and fully loaded gun weight were the same for each cartridge, then which one would be chosen? Add to this hypothetical situation that this is true using your favorite firearm: Glock, SIG, 1911, whatever. In other words, exclude all variables. I suspect that in many discussions of self-defense handgun cartridges these other variables are hidden yet influential in the choice argued for.

The 9mm crowd often has the hidden variables of cost, capacity and weight. The .45acp crowd may have the hidden variable of the 1911. The .40S&W crowd may have a bias against 9mm and desire more capacity than common in .45acp. Everyone may be thinking about the guns they can use with the cartridge they're arguing for.

Most importantly, in most cases the majority of participants in the debate have no personal experience with the self-defense firing of a handgun. Ask a cop what he'd prefer to carry. He's someone who's life is really on the line.

GL

RIP Officer Richard Crittenden


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 2:52:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 6:57:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mateba:
Originally Posted By Steve_Canyon:
.357 Sig penetration is largely overblown and is entirely dependant upon the given media. For example, if you are shooting at a vehicle penetration will be very good, though not outside the bounds of a 9x19mm +P or even a bonded 165grn .40 projectile. However, if you are shooting at flesh penetration will likely be less than the previously mentioned rounds.


If you look at most of the ballistics testing out there, you will find that you are wrong. In almost every case 357 Sig will penetrate deeper than 9mm. The exceptions are oddball loads with extremely light bullets (which nobody recommends), where the high MV causes the bullet to fragment and fail to penetrate adequately.


Nope. The .357sig, with say the 125gr GDHP penetrates a little bit less than a 124gr or even a 124gr+P GDHP. Same for the Winchester Ranger Talon when comparing the 125gr .357sig to the 124gr+p or even the 127gr+P+ versions in 9mm. Albeit not by much, but the .357sig isnt the deep penetrator its hyped to be. For that matter, .357sig isnt alot of things its hyped to be.


Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:55:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
I don't want to use a necked-down pistol cartridge.

I have standardized on 9mm and 45ACP. If neither of those two give me what I want, then I need to use a long gun.



Good point.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:10:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 1:11:03 PM EST by max229]

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Originally Posted By Mateba:
Originally Posted By Steve_Canyon:
.357 Sig penetration is largely overblown and is entirely dependant upon the given media. For example, if you are shooting at a vehicle penetration will be very good, though not outside the bounds of a 9x19mm +P or even a bonded 165grn .40 projectile. However, if you are shooting at flesh penetration will likely be less than the previously mentioned rounds.
If you look at most of the ballistics testing out there, you will find that you are wrong. In almost every case 357 Sig will penetrate deeper than 9mm. The exceptions are oddball loads with extremely light bullets (which nobody recommends), where the high MV causes the bullet to fragment and fail to penetrate adequately.
Nope. The .357sig, with say the 125gr GDHP penetrates a little bit less than a 124gr or even a 124gr+P GDHP. Same for the Winchester Ranger Talon when comparing the 125gr .357sig to the 124gr+p or even the 127gr+P+ versions in 9mm. Albeit not by much, but the .357sig isnt the deep penetration its hyped to be. For that matter, .357sig isnt alot of things its hyped to be.

How does it compare with FMJ ammo?
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:57:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 4:09:19 PM EST by Demo_Dave]
Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Originally Posted By Mateba:
Originally Posted By Steve_Canyon:
.357 Sig penetration is largely overblown and is entirely dependant upon the given media. For example, if you are shooting at a vehicle penetration will be very good, though not outside the bounds of a 9x19mm +P or even a bonded 165grn .40 projectile. However, if you are shooting at flesh penetration will likely be less than the previously mentioned rounds.


If you look at most of the ballistics testing out there, you will find that you are wrong. In almost every case 357 Sig will penetrate deeper than 9mm. The exceptions are oddball loads with extremely light bullets (which nobody recommends), where the high MV causes the bullet to fragment and fail to penetrate adequately.


Nope. The .357sig, with say the 125gr GDHP penetrates a little bit less than a 124gr or even a 124gr+P GDHP. Same for the Winchester Ranger Talon when comparing the 125gr .357sig to the 124gr+p or even the 127gr+P+ versions in 9mm. Albeit not by much, but the .357sig isnt the deep penetrator its hyped to be. For that matter, .357sig isnt alot of things its hyped to be.


NOTE: I'm not claiming this to be gospel truth as I have NO Idea how ATK/Speer came about with this data but: Gold Dot Poster

(A) Bare Gelatin* (B) Heavy Clothing* (C) 20 Gauge Steel (2)* (D) 1/2 Inch Wallboard (2)* (E) 3/4 Inch AA Fir Plywood* (F) 1/4 Inch A.S.I. Laminated Safety Glass* (G) IWBA Heavy Clothing (* FBI Test Events )

9mm 115 Gr. GDHP (SIG P226 / 1191 fps Ave. Velocity / 362 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 11.75" Expansion = .690" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.5 GRS.
B) Penetration = 13.75" Expansion = .590" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.9 GRS.
C) Penetration = 22.45" Expansion = .380" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.1 GRS.
D) Penetration = 10.95" Expansion = .620" DIA. Retain Wt. = 115.0 GRS.
E) Penetration = 13.70" Expansion = .570" DIA. Retain Wt. = 115.0 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.38" Expansion = .550" DIA. Retain Wt. = 98.8 GRS.
G) Penetration = 18.85" Expansion = .510" DIA. Retain Wt. = 115.8 GRS.

9mm+P+115 Gr. GDHP (GLOCK 17 / 1277 fps Ave. Velocity / 416 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 10.50" Expansion = .830" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.9 GRS.
B) Penetration = 12.75" Expansion = .600" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.8 GRS.
C) Penetration = 24.00" Expansion = .390" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.4 GRS.
D) Penetration = 11.30" Expansion = .650" DIA. Retain Wt. = 115.3 GRS.
E) Penetration = 12.60" Expansion = .620" DIA. Retain Wt. = 114.5 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.00" Expansion = .530" DIA. Retain Wt. = 98.0 GRS.
G) Penetration = 15.90" Expansion = .530" DIA. Retain Wt. = 115.4 GRS.

9mm 124 Gr. GDHP (SIG P226 / 1139 fps Ave. Velocity / 357 ft lbs Energy )
A) Penetration = 11.35" Expansion = .682" DIA. Retain Wt. = 123.9 GRS.
B) Penetration = 14.61" Expansion = .562" DIA. Retain Wt. = 123.7 GRS.
C) Penetration = 19.20" Expansion = .462" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.2 GRS.
D) Penetration = 11.65" Expansion = .615" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.5 GRS.
E) Penetration = 15.70" Expansion = .513" DIA. Retain Wt. = 123.6 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.65" Expansion = .571" DIA. Retain Wt. = 110.4 GRS.
G) Penetration = 16.43" Expansion = .555" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.5 GRS.

9mm+P 124 Gr. GDHP (GLOCK 17 / 1235 fps Ave. Velocity / 420 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 11.78" Expansion = .720" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.3 GRS.
B) Penetration = 14.13" Expansion = .600" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.0 GRS.
C) Penetration = 27.63" Expansion = .450" DIA. Retain Wt. = 123.9 GRS.
D) Penetration = 12.52" Expansion = .660" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.2 GRS.
E) Penetration = 14.00" Expansion = .594" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.5 GRS.
F) Penetration = 14.95" Expansion = .543" DIA. Retain Wt. = 103.9 GRS.
G) Penetration = 15.88" Expansion = .560" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.4 GRS.

9mm 147 Gr. GDHP (SIG P226 / 961 fps Ave. Velocity / 301 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 12.58" Expansion = .660" DIA. Retain Wt. = 146.9 GRS.
B) Penetration = 14.93" Expansion = .570" DIA. Retain Wt. = 146.9 GRS.
C) Penetration = 19.43" Expansion = .420" DIA. Retain Wt. = 146.2 GRS.
D) Penetration = 15.63" Expansion = .550" DIA. Retain Wt. = 147.8 GRS.
E) Penetration = 16.13" Expansion = .490" DIA. Retain Wt. = 147.2 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.90" Expansion = .560" DIA. Retain Wt. = 130.9 GRS.
G) Penetration = 16.93" Expansion = .540" DIA. Retain Wt. = 146.2 GRS.

357 SIG 125 Gr. GDHP (SIG P226 / 1379 fps Ave. Velocity / 528 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 14.34" Expansion = .617" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.4 GRS.
B) Penetration = 18.30" Expansion = .532" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.4 GRS.
C) Penetration = 18.70" Expansion = .477" DIA. Retain Wt. = 122.9 GRS.
D) Penetration = 14.44" Expansion = .594" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.4 GRS.
E) Penetration = 17.05" Expansion = .564" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.3 GRS.
F) Penetration = 15.45" Expansion = .527" DIA. Retain Wt. = 99.6 GRS.
G) Penetration = 17.50" Expansion = .535" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.5 GRS.

357 MAG 125 Gr. GDHP (S&W Model 65 / 1189 fps Ave. Velocity / 392 ft lbs Energy )
A) Penetration = 15.65" Expansion = .553" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.1 GRS.
B) Penetration = 23.00" Expansion = .407" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.4 GRS.
C) Penetration = 18.30" Expansion = .473" DIA. Retain Wt. = 122.7 GRS.
D) Penetration = 17.46" Expansion = .506" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.3 GRS.
E) Penetration = 20.70" Expansion = .357" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.3 GRS.
F) Penetration = 14.93" Expansion = .517" DIA. Retain Wt. = 99.0 GRS.
G) Penetration = 22.75" Expansion = .394" DIA. Retain Wt. = 124.3 GRS.

40 S&W 155 Gr. GDHP (GLOCK 23 / 1162 fps Ave. Velocity / 465 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 12.05" Expansion = .769" DIA. Retain Wt. = 154.1 GRS.
B) Penetration = 16.40" Expansion = .632" DIA. Retain Wt. = 153.8 GRS.
C) Penetration = 17.95" Expansion = .502" DIA. Retain Wt. = 153.6 GRS.
D) Penetration = 12.58" Expansion = .677" DIA. Retain Wt. = 155.0 GRS.
E) Penetration = 13.10" Expansion = .645" DIA. Retain Wt. = 154.2 GRS.
F) Penetration = 13.05" Expansion = .572" DIA. Retain Wt. = 120.3 GRS.
G) Penetration = 14.45" Expansion = .630" DIA. Retain Wt. = 154.6 GRS.

40 S&W 165 Gr. GDHP (S&W Model 4006 / 1099 fps Ave. Velocity / 442 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 13.32" Expansion = .672" DIA. Retain Wt. = 165.3 GRS.
B) Penetration = 18.00" Expansion = .618" DIA. Retain Wt. = 165.1 GRS.
C) Penetration = 18.80" Expansion = .494" DIA. Retain Wt. = 163.8 GRS.
D) Penetration = 13.06" Expansion = .628" DIA. Retain Wt. = 165.2 GRS.
E) Penetration = 15.42" Expansion = .621" DIA. Retain Wt. = 165.4 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.80" Expansion = .588" DIA. Retain Wt. = 141.4 GRS.
G) Penetration = 17.55" Expansion = .583" DIA. Retain Wt. = 165.4 GRS.

40 S&W 180 Gr. GDHP (GLOCK 23 / 995 fps Ave. Velocity / 396 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 12.19" Expansion = .640" DIA. Retain Wt. = 179.9 GRS.
B) Penetration = 13.25" Expansion = .709" DIA. Retain Wt. = 180.3 GRS.
C) Penetration = 19.60" Expansion = .507" DIA. Retain Wt. = 178.9 GRS.
D) Penetration = 12.75" Expansion = .673" DIA. Retain Wt. = 179.7 GRS.
E) Penetration = 17.10" Expansion = .575" DIA. Retain Wt. = 180.0 GRS.
F) Penetration = 12.75" Expansion = .612" DIA. Retain Wt. = 154.4 GRS.
G) Penetration = 14.10" Expansion = .662" DIA. Retain Wt. = 179.3 GRS.

45 AUTO 185 Gr. GDHP (SIG P220 / 970 fps Ave. Velocity / 386 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 10.69" Expansion = .827" DIA. Retain Wt. = 185.6 GRS.
B) Penetration = 12.63" Expansion = .738" DIA. Retain Wt. = 186.6 GRS.
C) Penetration = 18.20" Expansion = .512" DIA. Retain Wt. = 184.5 GRS.
D) Penetration = 12.04" Expansion = .743" DIA. Retain Wt. = 186.2 GRS.
E) Penetration = 15.66" Expansion = .584" DIA. Retain Wt. = 184.4 GRS.
F) Penetration = 11.05" Expansion = .679" DIA. Retain Wt. = 173.9 GRS.
G) Penetration = 15.00" Expansion = .651" DIA. Retain Wt. = 185.1 GRS.

45 AUTO+P 200 Gr. GDHP (GLOCK 21 / 1025 fps Ave. Velocity / 467 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 10.33" Expansion = .819" DIA. Retain Wt. = 200.1 GRS.
B) Penetration = 12.42" Expansion = .727" DIA. Retain Wt. = 200.1 GRS.
C) Penetration = 22.70" Expansion = .518" DIA. Retain Wt. = 199.2 GRS.
D) Penetration = 11.83" Expansion = .732" DIA. Retain Wt. = 199.1 GRS.
E) Penetration = 16.80" Expansion = .701" DIA. Retain Wt. = 200.0 GRS.
F) Penetration = 14.58" Expansion = .647" DIA. Retain Wt. = 183.4 GRS.
G) Penetration = 15.20" Expansion = .675" DIA. Retain Wt. = 200.2 GRS.

45 AUTO 230 Gr. GDHP (S&W Model 4506 / 851 fps Ave. Velocity / 370 ft lbs Energy)
A) Penetration = 13.00" Expansion = .711" DIA. Retain Wt. = 229.3 GRS.
B) Penetration = 13.60" Expansion = .692" DIA. Retain Wt. = 230.2 GRS.
C) Penetration = 19.45" Expansion = .512" DIA. Retain Wt. = 229.9 GRS.
D) Penetration = 16.80" Expansion = .620" DIA. Retain Wt. = 230.4 GRS.
E) Penetration = 21.95" Expansion = .451" DIA. Retain Wt. = 232.4 GRS.
F) Penetration = 13.10" Expansion = .609" DIA. Retain Wt. = 217.5 GRS.
G) Penetration = 14.55" Expansion = .675" DIA. Retain Wt. = 230.0 GRS.

Again, I am by no means claiming this to be the gospel nor am I a 357S fan boy, this is just information from the link posted above that is found on ATK' website. I believe their GDHP load to be the 54234 load (just based off the velocity quoted) BUT in comparison the 53918 load in FBI tests didn't farethat different (and also, yes I did omit some loads that aren't needed for this comparison)

4" SAAMI test Barrel (1,312 fps Ave Velocity)
A) Penetration = 14.70" Expansion = 0.64" Retain Wt. = 125.1 GRS
B) Penetration = 17.35" Expansion = 0.51" Retain Wt. = 125.1 GRS
C) Penetration = 16.45" Expansion = 0.50" Retain Wt. = 123.0 GRS
D) Penetration = 14.15" Expansion = 0.56" Retain Wt. = 125.6 GRS
E) Penetration = 15.25" Expansion = 0.54" Retain Wt. = 125.2 GRS
F) Penetration = 14.80" Expansion = 0.56" Retain Wt. = 96.3 GRS
Heavy Clothing at 20 yards: Pen = 17.80" Exp = 0.53" Retain Wt. = 125.3 GRS
Auto Glass at 20 yards: Pen = 15.15" Exp = 0.53" Retain Wt. = 106.0 GRS
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:17:22 PM EST

The NC Highway Patrol just awarded S&W contracts for the M&P 357sig and the M&P AR's. My understanding is that it (357) was awarded (probably not the sole reason) for vehicle / glass / barrier penetration.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:56:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 6:57:52 PM EST by Demo_Dave]
Originally Posted By GIDDS-45:

The NC Highway Patrol just awarded S&W contracts for the M&P 357sig and the M&P AR's. My understanding is that it (357) was awarded (probably not the sole reason) for vehicle / glass / barrier penetration.


NC SHP just switched pistols, they've used 357 Sig for a decade.

Beretta Cougar ––> 229R DAK ––> M&P357
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:13:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
I don't want to use a necked-down pistol cartridge.

I have standardized on 9mm and 45ACP. If neither of those two give me what I want, then I need to use a long gun.


Why did you put down your long gun in the first place?

~Augee

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:55:11 PM EST
It has the same ballistics as the .357 Magnum. My Smith M&P holds 15 rounds of it. Next question.
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