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Posted: 9/6/2009 11:33:13 AM EST
I sure can't. I got a Rock Island 1911 and a surplus CZ-82 in 9mm Mak. Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with either

At 25 yards, I shoot roughly 6 to 8 inch groups with my 1911. I shoot the CZ a tad better, I can get 5 inch groups with it. I think this is because the sights on it are taller and more prominent than on a 1911.

I can shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards with my Smith and Wesson 22 pistol, but that doesn't count; it has a red dot on it, which made all the difference for me. I was shooting 4 inch groups with it beforehand.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 11:47:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2009 11:58:16 AM EST by Artiz]
I was able to do it with my Sig P226 in 9mm, but at 25 meters, which is even further than 25 yards. Last range trip I put 4 out of 5 rounds in a 3" group. The other was under that but still on the black center which is 7" wide. I am still getting used to the new to me (used, btw)german-made P226 after only 350 rounds shot with it. It's hard to adjust at that distance since I can't even see the holes in the black part of the target.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 11:56:44 AM EST
with my S&W K22, yes.

With my P229, no.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 11:58:10 AM EST
Most anyone who shoots PPC?
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 12:03:53 PM EST
Damn, I really do suck. Or I've had the extremely bad luck of buying two inaccurate pistols in a row.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 12:17:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2009 12:18:25 PM EST by Artiz]
^^ It's hard, it's just a matter of letting the shot go off without anticipating it, so you don't flinch, you don't move your fingers, you just let the pistol do it's job. Again it's hard, I still beat me when I anticipate the recoil because I still flinch from time to time.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 12:26:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Artiz:
^^ It's hard, it's just a matter of letting the shot go off without anticipating it, so you don't flinch, you don't move your fingers, you just let the pistol do it's job. Again it's hard, I still beat me when I anticipate the recoil because I still flinch from time to time.


I think something that helps me shoot my 22 that accurately is the red dot. When I'm not holding steady, it shows me how much I'm actually moving around the target in a way that iron sights can't. I'd probably do just fine with a 44 magnum hunting revolver with scope. But irons are another deal altogether.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 4:51:50 PM EST
I can't. About 6 inches is all I can do. Having said that, at times me and my brother have been very lucky and cosistent shooting clay pigons at 100 yds with our Beretta 92s. I'm not saying I can always hit one, but taking out 4 or 5 with a 15rd mag was not uncommon. That was about 2 years ago before ammo prices went batshit.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 4:53:18 PM EST
I'm lucky if I get a 4inch group at 10 yards.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 4:54:13 PM EST
I can with both of my pistols. But they are both Browning Hi Powers.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 5:31:06 PM EST
I can do it with a Glock 19, just takes a lot of practice. These days I'm more concerned with making a first round COM hit from the holster as fast as possible.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 6:03:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2009 6:15:34 PM EST by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
I'm usually around double that (7-8").

I can only muster 3-4" at roughly 12yds.

I guess we'll see if a Kart NM barrel and trigger job help that out, if not, I know I can rule out the pistol.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 6:09:40 PM EST
I think I still can, I haven't tried in a long time. This was at about 20 yards.

Link Posted: 9/6/2009 6:24:20 PM EST
It depends on how much coffee Ive drank. Get the AMU Marksmanship Manual, read all you can over on Brian Enos Forum, buy his book.

Double up on hearing protection and get an 8" steel plate set at 50yds and stock up on 3x5 index cards for 25yds.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 6:35:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
It depends on how much coffee Ive drank. Get the AMU Marksmanship Manual, read all you can over on Brian Enos Forum, buy his book.

Double up on hearing protection and get an 8" steel plate set at 50yds and stock up on 3x5 index cards for 25yds.


Yea.. it's odd. If I'm shooting a bullseye I can't keep it too tight at all. If I'm shooting tin cans I can hit them every time. The index cards seem a good idea.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 6:37:02 PM EST
So that being said, what are respectable groupings for a compact gun, at 5,10,20 and 25yds?
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 7:10:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By StuntHeavy:
So that being said, what are respectable groupings for a compact gun, at 5,10,20 and 25yds?


They say that in an actual gunfight you will be lucky to shoot twice as bad as your best. Just something to ponder.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 7:15:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
It depends on how much coffee Ive drank. Get the AMU Marksmanship Manual, read all you can over on Brian Enos Forum, buy his book.

Double up on hearing protection and get an 8" steel plate set at 50yds and stock up on 3x5 index cards for 25yds.


Yea.. it's odd. If I'm shooting a bullseye I can't keep it too tight at all. If I'm shooting tin cans I can hit them every time. The index cards seem a good idea.


Index cards have played a big part in helping my shooting. Along with accepting the float, burning the front sight in my vision and watching it. Once I got to the point where I could start calling my shots by focus on the front sight then I started playing with speed.

The gong at 50yds once you start to walk makes running at 10-15-25yds cake.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 7:18:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2009 7:19:09 PM EST by timpryor]
15 yeah on a good day, 25 nope, but I can shoot MOBG at 25
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 7:43:06 PM EST
trigger, sights, and comfort w/ your gun...on a good day and w/ the right circumstances and gun/ammo, i probably could; but i'm happy w/ MofMan at 25-100 yrds
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 9:14:54 PM EST
I can do that sometimes (not all of the time), it's always good to practice bullseye shooting, but I don't overly concentrate on it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 9:53:42 PM EST
6-8" groups with a stock gun at 25 yards will still put you in the top 10% of most of the shooters on this forum.
Link Posted: 9/6/2009 11:15:23 PM EST
I can. With the "service pistols". (i.e., excluding subcompact revolvers.)
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 2:39:56 AM EST
I've pulled off 6" at 25 before, but I don't try all that often. As someone else said, I'm more concerned with a COM hits from holster draw.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 5:10:52 AM EST
Taking my sweet sweet time I've come very close to that, but in no way shape or form will that ever help me.

At that distance, I'm only concerned about getting my rounds in the center circle of an IDPA target, and doing it as quickly as possible.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 5:36:02 AM EST
After reading the replys here, I don't feel so bad about my shooting now.

It's nice to hear I'm not the only one that can't put them all in the same hole at 25yds.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 6:24:29 AM EST
What do most CCW classes do? 5 at 5yds, and 5 at 10yds? Then 70% out of that?
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 6:31:25 AM EST
1 -13 rd mag at 50 yards the few I missed were no far off ...

Link Posted: 9/7/2009 5:50:16 PM EST
I use to be able to when I was shooting more, ~7k/yr center fire + rim fire. This was from my SA TRP/OP: 10 shots, off-hand, 25yds, slow fire using Win PD 230gr JHPs about 2"....


For those of you who can count to10 and only see 9 holes, the 10th is under the FT on the tape.

When I shot last, I was able to squeeze out a sub 3" group (5shots) out of my HK P7M8 off hand @ 25yds. I think that was w/ Win VP FMJ, but it could have been w/ the Fed Champion stuff. I am not sure now, as we were shooting both. But now a days, that is the exception, not the rule.

FB
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 6:51:12 PM EST
Yes. I can usually do it. With my smith wheelguns or my 1911's. Check out the pick. 35 yards on a run, heart shot. 5" 29-5 .44mag.



Link Posted: 9/7/2009 10:26:53 PM EST
I haven't tried doing that in such a long time now.

Today, I was shootina a surplus Romanian TTC in 7.62x25 that I recently bought. The last couple of times I shot it, it would group for crap. I was actually surprised and amazed that I was able to put two round (out of 8) on a 8X11 sheet of paper.

With my .22lr revolvers, hitting playing cards at 25yrds is child's play. With my other handguns, I can keep all of the shots on an 8X11 piece of paper.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 10:30:54 PM EST
glock 19 i have had for 18years, yea i didn't belive i could the first time either. now i can hit a softball 1out of 3 shots at 100yds with irons.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 2:18:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:

Damn, I really do suck. Or I've had the extremely bad luck of buying two inaccurate pistols in a row.



Don't give up just yet, IMO. There's a slew of reasons (potentially) for your groupings. First of all, dry fire the guns as much as you can. Watch the front sight as you pull the trigger, see if it moves? Then try multiple brands of ammo, try to find one the gun really likes. Different weight bullets, different brands, etc.

Next, try shooting from a rest. If this allows you to get that 2" group then you know both the gun & you are capable, you just need to practice.

Going from a 1911 to a TDA semi & back & forth isn't conductive to accurate shooting for the less than experienced shooter, IMO. One will usually find themselves slapping the trigger & thus affecting accuracy.

My .o2
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 2:55:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 4:14:22 AM EST
5" 1911 (S&W Koenig Edition.) YES
Glock 19 (i put trijicon 3dot) Yes
P3AT NO
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 11:45:20 AM EST
I recently took a pistol class to see if the instructor could help pinpoint area where I need improvement and I found that if I really slow down and take my time I can get my rounds in a 6" circle at 15 yards (My range has fixed post at 15, 25, and 50 yards for handguns) On the days when I'm getting cocky I hang a target at 25 and I'm lucky if I can hit the paper.

The instructor also took me to the IDPA pits at our local range just to give me an idea what it'd be like and surprisingly I was able to keep most of my shots inside the same 6" circle (he'd posted shoot and see targets on the idpa silhouette cardboard targets that were standing) while moving at all the various distances and shooting quickly. It seems that once my adrenaline is running and I stop over thinking everything I do better. I've noticed this with skeet shooting to, I do better when I stop trying to over think it and just let my brain do the math of aiming for me.

Link Posted: 9/8/2009 11:50:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 11:54:45 AM EST by colklink]
I can in slow fire. Any halfway decent pistol should be capable of doing it, the rest is just practice.

After reading more I should say, yes I can with a service sized pistol, and any decent service sized pistol is capable of doing it.

OP you listed your two pistols, if you want to get to be a better shot you need a quality .22lr pistol to practice with.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 8:20:43 PM EST
With a rest under 4" everytime. Offhand 85% of the time. I'm a police rangemaster and see alot of people shoot every year that carry a pistol for a living. We start our pistol Q course at 25 yds and fire 8 rounds from there supported on a barricade. My Sgt with 29 yrs on the job had 2 rounds that missed the entire TQ21 target that is 25"x40". My guess is most people that shoot 10" or better at 25 yds are doing well.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 8:32:58 PM EST
Lotta ball & dummy drills - trigger controll , and shoot so many .45 acp that recoil antiipation goes away...............OH - and a full size 1911 w/ a smooth trigger helps. -
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 6:19:41 AM EST
It depends on the gun.

With a match 1911 frame and Marvel top end I've broken 5 clay targets at 100m with 10 shots; with my HK carry gun I can break clays at 40m; with a Glock I struggle to hit a bucket at 15m. There are only three elements to marksmanship: breathing, sight picture and trigger control. The only one of these that is firearm dependent is the trigger control.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 6:43:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2009 6:54:39 AM EST by Kristofer_G]
Originally Posted By beltfed74:

Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
It depends on how much coffee Ive drank. Get the AMU Marksmanship Manual, read all you can over on Brian Enos Forum, buy his book.

Double up on hearing protection and get an 8" steel plate set at 50yds and stock up on 3x5 index cards for 25yds.


Yea.. it's odd. If I'm shooting a bullseye I can't keep it too tight at all. If I'm shooting tin cans I can hit them every time. The index cards seem a good idea.


Index cards have played a big part in helping my shooting. Along with accepting the float, burning the front sight in my vision and watching it. Once I got to the point where I could start calling my shots by focus on the front sight then I started playing with speed.

The gong at 50yds once you start to walk makes running at 10-15-25yds cake.


Indeed you need to aim small.

Additionally I have found dry fire practice not only improves the speed and constancy of my draw and other gun handling, but also improved my accuracy. Dry firing is crucial to seeing your follow though. Your involvement with each shot does not en30 paces for me should be at minimum 25 yards.d when the sear breaks.

ETA: 10 hits for 10 shots on a 8" Shoot-n-see at 30 paces. So 8" groups at 25 yards is where I am at currently.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 9:41:58 AM EST
This is about normal for me. Not real great but not bad either. I'm happy.



And to be 100% honest I started out at 15 yards (bullseye hits) and backed up to 25 yards.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 9:51:10 AM EST
Can? Yes. Reliably? No
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 11:19:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By colklink:
I can in slow fire. Any halfway decent pistol should be capable of doing it, the rest is just practice.

After reading more I should say, yes I can with a service sized pistol, and any decent service sized pistol is capable of doing it.

OP you listed your two pistols, if you want to get to be a better shot you need a quality .22lr pistol to practice with
.


I have a S&W Model 22A, which I think I mentioned in the my OP. I can shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards with it, but it has a red dot sight, so that's kind of cheating. The red dot shows me when I'm unsteady whereas irons really don't.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 11:38:04 AM EST
I wouldn't expect either one of your handguns to be tackdrivers. Frankly I think 6" groups at 25y is pretty good, especially with a RIA 1911.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 2:05:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2009 2:08:16 PM EST by Viper1357]
For me depends on the gun as some have mentioned. Most all of my semi autos I can hold 4" (or less) at 25 yards until I get sloppy/tired.

Here's a good example below of opposite extremes in different guns holding groups. With the (much) larger Taurus 608 .357 mag I can easily hold 2" groups @ 25 yds without much effort. The snubbie Smith 642 I have shot 4" groups @ 25 yds, but it isn't all that easy for me. Typically up to 6" groups sneak in after a while, but this is not exactly a 25 yard gun. At 25 feet I can easily hold 4" groups with the snub.



Every gun, ammo, shooting style, skills and experience will determine your group size.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 2:07:43 PM EST


Need to go shoot this gun again, I'm fairly certain the fliers were my fault.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 3:01:16 PM EST
I can hit 12" steel plates at 100 with my 1911 95% of the time, does that cound =D
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 3:05:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2009 3:08:00 PM EST by rockasons]
I've done it with the following:

Sig p229
Sig p6
HK P7
Beretta 92f
1911

I can shoot tight groups with my glock 17 + laser sight, but not with the trijicon sights. I haven't really attempted it with my other handguns. Keep in mind that this is slow and consistent shooting, not rapid fire.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 3:20:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By beltfed74:
It depends on how much coffee Ive drank. Get the AMU Marksmanship Manual, read all you can over on Brian Enos Forum, buy his book.

Double up on hearing protection and get an 8" steel plate set at 50yds and stock up on 3x5 index cards for 25yds.


Good advice here.

Reminds me that I really need to get the rest of my leg points for pistol and finish.
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 5:57:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
I wouldn't expect either one of your handguns to be tackdrivers. Frankly I think 6" groups at 25y is pretty good, especially with a RIA 1911.


One of the reasons I'm considering a CZ-75 in 9mm, a gun that is known for pretty good accuracy.

One of these days I might think about fitting a different barrel into my RIA, once I'm a good enough shot for it to actually make a difference
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