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Posted: 10/15/2016 6:17:38 AM EDT
Say there existed an in-production pistol meeting the following criteria absolutely:

*Less than 1.1" thick including control levers
*Weighs less than 20oz with empty magazine
*Hammer fired
*Traditional DA/SA action
*Factory option for decock-only
*Available in 9mm

Which manufacturer's typical style would you prefer, given those specs? That is, if you'd like such a pistol, which manufacturer would you prefer to come out with one first?
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 7:27:53 AM EDT
CZ or Sig
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 9:35:48 AM EDT
S&W, as that is what they designed for the Army Trials in 1954.

"Light" is a quality that you can have in excess. The lighter the gun the heavier the recoil.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 9:55:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 9:59:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By tirod:
"Light" is a quality that you can have in excess. The lighter the gun the heavier the recoil.
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That is true, but the threshold would be well below my absolute maximum of 20oz for the purposes of this thread. I have one 9mm pistol which weighs 14oz with magazine, and its recoil is still comfortable.

I think I'm being more than generous in setting the limit at 20 ounces for the purposes of this thread.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 10:25:10 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
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I thought the 3913 weighed about 25 ounces? Is there some variation of the 3913 which weighs less than 20 ounces with magazine?
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 10:27:49 AM EDT
bersa, so it would be reasonably priced & ignored by hipsters
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 11:56:14 AM EDT
CZ, Sig, or Walther.

Actually a single stack Walther P99C in 45 would really be wonderful, as the P99 is a DA/SA striker fired pistol already in production and well proven.

The CZ would be great because it would be reasonably priced, well made, and accurate.

The Sig would be an equally good gun, but would be at a pretty high price point, like all Sigs, and come in 20 billion different variations each more expensive than the already over priced base model.

And don't get in a twist Sig fans, I own a P229 Enhanced Elite, and it is an excellent fire arm, fortunately I purchased it used.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 12:30:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2016 12:32:44 PM EDT by Gamma762]
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
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Dunno about perfect, but it's already been done, OP is just two or three decades behind the times.

Sig 225 would be another option in the genre.

Putting an artificial limit on the size of controls, when you specify something that requires controls, is a recipe for failure.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 12:39:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2016 12:46:46 PM EDT by williewvr]
What's you 14 oz 9mm OP?
A PF9 is all I'm aware of around 14 oz and I would hardy call it comfortable to shoot.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 12:48:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By williewvr:
What's you 14 oz 9mm OP?
A PF9 is all I'm aware of under 14 oz and I would hardy call it comfortable to shoot.
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Kel Tec P11. It weighs just a bit more than a PF9, but I think the grip geometry is the main reason it's more comfortable for me to shoot. Also, after looking at my sources, 14 oz may be the P11's weight without a magazine. My scale is broken, so I can't check that right now.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 1:06:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By gomipile:


Kel Tec P11. It weighs just a bit more than a PF9, but I think the grip geometry is the main reason it's more comfortable for me to shoot. Also, after looking at my sources, 14 oz may be the P11's weight without a magazine. My scale is broken, so I can't check that right now.
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Originally Posted By gomipile:
Originally Posted By williewvr:
What's you 14 oz 9mm OP?
A PF9 is all I'm aware of under 14 oz and I would hardy call it comfortable to shoot.


Kel Tec P11. It weighs just a bit more than a PF9, but I think the grip geometry is the main reason it's more comfortable for me to shoot. Also, after looking at my sources, 14 oz may be the P11's weight without a magazine. My scale is broken, so I can't check that right now.

Might want to put it on a working scale. Kel-Tec claimed weights are usually a little light. They claim the PF9 is 13oz but mines 14.2 oz. no big deal as it's still the lightest thinnest 9 I could find for my summer carry in south Texas. The P11 is probably better shooting as the mag is much wider forcing them to use a wider frame.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 1:46:50 PM EDT
Sig.

I'm pretty happy with my P290, it's close enough.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 4:32:45 PM EDT
CZ - Single stack version of a Rami. Perfect small belt gun IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 6:38:43 PM EDT
Sig 225 9mm would be my choice because it is what I have tried although I would really like to get my hands on a 3913.



Link Posted: 10/15/2016 8:09:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NVGdude:
CZ - Single stack version of a Rami. Perfect small belt gun IMHO.
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This

Link Posted: 10/16/2016 8:30:10 AM EDT
SIG or S&W.
Link Posted: 10/16/2016 9:01:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
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Yup


Link Posted: 10/16/2016 9:05:06 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Yup

http://i.imgur.com/WlgeN1A.jpg

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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
Yup

http://i.imgur.com/WlgeN1A.jpg



For some reason most s&w autos look goofy to me. The 3913 looks good.

How many rounds on board?
Link Posted: 10/16/2016 9:35:31 AM EDT
The S&W 3913 doesn't meet my guidelines, and isn't in production. Unless you mean to say you'd like an altered version of it which meets the guidelines of the original post, saying it's perfect as an answer to the question here is a non sequitur.

Yes, it's thin, and probably feels thin enough to satisfy me. Yes, it is a traditional double action.

However, to my knowledge, it didn't come in a decocker-only version. It didn't have a version which weighed less than 20 ounces. Another important quality which wasn't a bullet point, but was part of my framing of the question is that a pistol meeting these criteria be in production. This is important because one of the reasons I lament this gap in available pistols is that I would recommend such a pistol to some of my friends and acquaintances(if it had a reasonable record of reliability too, of course.) I rarely, if ever, give a strong recommendation for any piece of equipment which is out of production, for several reasons. I sometimes give mild recommendations to out of production tools, but such recommendations always come with an explicit caveat that I don't know if one might be able to easily find the tool for sale, and that service and parts may be expensive and/or difficult to obtain.

That is not to say I don't value out of production tools myself for various reasons, but I do think that being out of production limits the usefulness of a tool. I like my primary tools to be ones I'm willing to replace. If replacement is difficult, I'm less likely to consider a tool for regular use, and even less likely to recommend it as a primary option.
Link Posted: 10/16/2016 10:27:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


For some reason most s&w autos look goofy to me. The 3913 looks good.

How many rounds on board?
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
Yup

http://i.imgur.com/WlgeN1A.jpg



For some reason most s&w autos look goofy to me. The 3913 looks good.

How many rounds on board?
Got it used from the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office. I've put about 1,000 rds through it without a hiccup. I love shooting it at the range.
Link Posted: 10/16/2016 9:14:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Got it used from the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office. I've put about 1,000 rds through it without a hiccup. I love shooting it at the range.
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Smith 3913. It's already been done and it was perfect.
Yup

http://i.imgur.com/WlgeN1A.jpg



For some reason most s&w autos look goofy to me. The 3913 looks good.

How many rounds on board?
Got it used from the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office. I've put about 1,000 rds through it without a hiccup. I love shooting it at the range.


No, in the mag
Link Posted: 10/17/2016 7:05:17 AM EDT

¿Que?

Eight rounds.
Link Posted: 10/17/2016 11:01:40 AM EDT
Sig all the way!
Link Posted: 10/17/2016 4:56:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NVGdude:
CZ - Single stack version of a Rami. Perfect small belt gun IMHO.
View Quote


Like a Sig P239?
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:54:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By justinbiscuit:


Like a Sig P239?
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Originally Posted By justinbiscuit:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
CZ - Single stack version of a Rami. Perfect small belt gun IMHO.


Like a Sig P239?


No, the Sig P239 doesn't have specs like a slimmed-down single stack version of a RAMI.

Sigs and CZs have a different operating feel, anyway, which is part of the point of this thread. I do like both, though, and I'd like a 20 ounce decocker-only offer from either.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 11:33:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Royalwithcheese:
Sig.

I'm pretty happy with my P290, it's close enough.
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If the trigger was smoothed and not as heavy, this fits all the requirements (minus the DA/SA, which would require a decocking lever): SIG P290RS

It's definitely on the compact side, but still heavy enough for stout loads and hosts some of Sig's best night sights. Here's a few comparison shots:



S&W Model 3913 is a premier SA/DA choice as well, but weigh in about 5-6 ounces heavier...

ROCK6
Link Posted: 10/19/2016 3:38:46 PM EDT
The HK P30 SK is close to your specs. A little thicker than your spec (1.37 in.) and a smidge heavier (24 oz)
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 10:40:36 AM EDT
The P290 is a nice form factor, but I really like the ability to choose between two types of trigger pull. If the P290's trigger pull is the way I want my first shot pull to be on a hammer fired auto, then it's by definition not the way I want every shot.to be on a hammer fired auto.

If they made a slim decocker for it, that'd potentially be great.
Link Posted: 10/20/2016 11:26:57 AM EDT
CZ or HK based on HK's P7 M series pistols design and craftsmanship.
Link Posted: 10/21/2016 7:23:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By gomipile:
The P290 is a nice form factor, but I really like the ability to choose between two types of trigger pull. If the P290's trigger pull is the way I want my first shot pull to be on a hammer fired auto, then it's by definition not the way I want every shot.to be on a hammer fired auto.

If they made a slim decocker for it, that'd potentially be great.
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I agree. I don't necessarily mind DAO, but stock triggers really hurt their marketing against striker-fire triggers. At least with a decocker and DA/SA, you have the edge on versatility. I don't think most realize how accurate the P290RS is capable of and the full-size sights make a huge difference...a better trigger (or SA) would really maximize that potential.

ROCK6
Link Posted: 10/21/2016 3:07:44 PM EDT
Beretta! While the current 92's are awesome, they could use a "thinning down" in my opinion.
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