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Posted: 8/27/2004 6:51:23 AM EST
I want to do so and want to re-read what was posted and what the limitations on doing so are. Since it is a pistol and has no bayo lug or stock can it have a FS?

Thanks guys
S.O.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:00:18 AM EST
they are everywhere
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:12:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
I want to do so and want to re-read what was posted and what the limitations on doing so are. Since it is a pistol and has no bayo lug or stock can it have a FS?

Thanks guys
S.O.



After the ban SUNSETS , not passes, there are no restrictions aother then it cannot have 2 pistol grips (then it would be an AOW), and cannot "be designed to be fired from the shoulder" i.e. No stock and never had a stock.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:19:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
I want to do so and want to re-read what was posted and what the limitations on doing so are. Since it is a pistol and has no bayo lug or stock can it have a FS?

Thanks guys
S.O.



After the ban SUNSETS , not passes, there are no restrictions aother then it cannot have 2 pistol grips (then it would be an AOW), and cannot "be designed to be fired from the shoulder" i.e. No stock and never had a stock.



It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:40:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




I've never heard this one before. All i've seen is that it can't have been a rifle. I can see wanting the 4473 to positively show it's not a rifle, that's my most of mine are transferred as "A15 receiver" or sometihng similar. That way, technically they are not a rifle or a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:48:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 8:51:20 AM EST by ANGST]

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By _DR:
It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




I've never heard this one before. All i've seen is that it can't have been a rifle. I can see wanting the 4473 to positively show it's not a rifle, that's my most of mine are transferred as "A15 receiver" or sometihng similar. That way, technically they are not a rifle or a pistol.



Right no requirement to have the reciever transfered as a pistol. "Pistol" or "Stripped lower" are fine. Some people just want this to CYA in case the go to court. The 4473 could even say "rifle" and you would not be in violation of the law as long as it was never a rifle. I think we can look back on the number of people who got in trouble with AR15 pistols from the mid-80s to 94 to see how much of an issue that relly is. (BTW is was never a problem).


EDIT: we should probably get someone to ask this of the tech branch after 9/13 and publish the letter on the site. Just to put the issue to bed once and for all.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:50:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By _DR:
It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




I've never heard this one before. All i've seen is that it can't have been a rifle. I can see wanting the 4473 to positively show it's not a rifle, that's my most of mine are transferred as "A15 receiver" or sometihng similar. That way, technically they are not a rifle or a pistol.



The law just says it can't have been assembled as a rifle. I think NAM is correct.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:14:50 AM EST

Right no requirement to have the reciever transfered as a pistol.

Be careful with state laws. Here in South Carolina, we have mandatory new handgun registration, so if you buy a new receiver you are going to use as a pistol, the dealer must have permission from the state police to sell it to you and the 4473 must show it as a pistol. There's also additional state paperwork that has to be filled-out. In North Carolina, you need the local sherrif's permission to buy a handgun, so their residents also have to do the 4473 as a pistol and give them your pistol permit. Many other states have simular laws.z
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:37:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 9:39:20 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
I want to do so and want to re-read what was posted and what the limitations on doing so are. Since it is a pistol and has no bayo lug or stock can it have a FS?

Thanks guys
S.O.



After the ban SUNSETS , not passes, there are no restrictions aother then it cannot have 2 pistol grips (then it would be an AOW), and cannot "be designed to be fired from the shoulder" i.e. No stock and never had a stock.



It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




Not true

4473 can say anything... Generally, it SHOULD say 'stripped reciever)...

The rule is that it must never have been a rifle (eg NEW stripped lower)....

That is the ONLY RULE WRT AR PISTOLS. IT MUST NOT HAVE BEEN 'MADE' INTO A RIFLE.

No special 'registration', stamping, or transfer is required....

OH YEAH: This assumes a 'normal' state that does not have pistol registration... Obviously, if you have to register pistols then you must register it...
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:46:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 11:18:58 AM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By _DR:
It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




I've never heard this one before. All i've seen is that it can't have been a rifle. I can see wanting the 4473 to positively show it's not a rifle, that's my most of mine are transferred as "A15 receiver" or sometihng similar. That way, technically they are not a rifle or a pistol.



Right no requirement to have the reciever transfered as a pistol. "Pistol" or "Stripped lower" are fine. Some people just want this to CYA in case the go to court. The 4473 could even say "rifle" and you would not be in violation of the law as long as it was never a rifle. I think we can look back on the number of people who got in trouble with AR15 pistols from the mid-80s to 94 to see how much of an issue that relly is. (BTW is was never a problem).


EDIT: we should probably get someone to ask this of the tech branch after 9/13 and publish the letter on the site. Just to put the issue to bed once and for all.



Now go figure, go argue with a BATF agent about whether your AR pistol was ever a long gun or not when the form 4473 and therefore the FFL's bound book clearly says "long gun". That means even though the form 4473 will go away after 30 days, it will be entered into the transferring FFLs bound book as a long gun. This bound book is a PERMANENT record that can and has been subpoenaed. That means that the stripped receiver, if entered in the bound book as a long gun, was in fact a long gun, even before you made it a handgun(AR Pistol), which is illegal. This is WHY it must be entered as a handgun on the form 4473 even though it is only a stripped receiver at the time of transfer, to be legal to make into a pistol.

There is not an option for "stripped receiver" on a form 4473. It is a "long gun", or a "Handgun" or "Both" as you can transfer up to three firearms on a single form 4473. If the FFL puts "long gun" on the 4473 and therefore in the permanent bound book also, you cannot legally make a handgun out of it without changing its status as a long gun with the BATF.

THOSE OF YOU WHO CLAIM YOU CAN PUT "STRIPPED RECEIVER" ON A 4473 ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION



But by all means, do what you want if you are convinced you are right. It's not my ass.

Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:13:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By _DR:
It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol. Stag Arms will reportedly ship receivers designated as "pistol" for those FFLs who are reluctant to put pistol on a 4473 for an AR15 receiver.




I've never heard this one before. All i've seen is that it can't have been a rifle. I can see wanting the 4473 to positively show it's not a rifle, that's my most of mine are transferred as "A15 receiver" or sometihng similar. That way, technically they are not a rifle or a pistol.



Right no requirement to have the reciever transfered as a pistol. "Pistol" or "Stripped lower" are fine. Some people just want this to CYA in case the go to court. The 4473 could even say "rifle" and you would not be in violation of the law as long as it was never a rifle. I think we can look back on the number of people who got in trouble with AR15 pistols from the mid-80s to 94 to see how much of an issue that relly is. (BTW is was never a problem).


EDIT: we should probably get someone to ask this of the tech branch after 9/13 and publish the letter on the site. Just to put the issue to bed once and for all.



Now go figure, go argue with a BATF agent about whether your AR pistol was ever a long gun or not when the form 4473 and therefore the FFL's bound book clearly says "long gun". That means even though the form 4473 will go away after 30 days, it will be entered into the transferring FFLs bound book as a long gun. This bound book is a PERMANENT record that can and has been subpoenaed. That means that the stripped receiver, if entered in the bound book as a long gun, was in fact a long gun, even before you made it a handgun(AR Pistol), which is illegal. This is WHY it must be entered as a handgun on the form 4473 even though it is only a stripped receiver at the time of transfer, to be legal to make into a pistol.

There is not an option for "stripped receiver" on a form 4473. It is a "long gun", or a "Handgun" or "Both" as you can transfer up to three firearms on a single form 4473. If the FFL puts "long gun" on the 4473 and therefore in the permanent bound book also, you cannot legally make a handgun out of it without changing its status as a long gun with the BATF.

THOSE OF YOU WHO CLAIM YOU CAN PUT "STRIPPED RECEIVER" ON A 4473 ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION

tinypic.com/3ezvp

But by all means, do what you want if you are convinced you are right. It's not my ass.





Section D , Column 18
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:05:50 AM EST
I would go with Angst there, and in the top section, call it both.

Technically, it can be either. It's not assembled yet.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:25:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 8:31:55 AM EST by _DR]
The "both" designation refers only to two firearms where one is a longarm and one is a handgun, a single firearm cannot be "both" a handgun and a long gun at the same time, per BATF regulations. Go ask any FFL, he will be happy to explain this.

Section D , Column 18, the decription section, is to further describe the firearm(s). Nam, You are incorrect, A 100% complete but unassembled stripped receiver IS considered a firearm, and as such MUST be classified as either a longarm or handgun. ALL non-NFA firearms must fall under one of these two categories. Section B, column 10 is not optional. One box must be checked. If there is a single firearm, it must be either a long gun or handgun. period.

I have had lengthy discussions about this with my local FFLs because I am planning to build an AR pistol after the ban expires. not one of them will put stripped receiver only on the 4473 without classification. The problem is that with a serial numbered firearm that you did not manufacture, it must have a classification in order to be sold by an FFL. If you build your own receiver or complete an 80% receiver, that is a different story, you can make it whatever your want.

You find me an FFL holder who will but "Both" as classification for a single receiver, and put only "stripped receiver" in the description. I guarantee that won't happen. But if you do, let me know and give me his number, and I'll order my receiver from him post haste.

Ain't gonna happen. The BATF has many gray areas, this is not one of them.

But by all means, don't take my word for it. Go to a local gun retailer you trust, and ask one of their FFLs the same question. Again, if he says he will put "both" for a single receiver, and "stripped receiver" ONLY in the description, I want his number.

Link Posted: 8/29/2004 2:19:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:


But by all means, don't take my word for it. Go to a local gun retailer you trust, and ask one of their FFLs the same question. Again, if he says he will put "both" for a single receiver, and "stripped receiver" ONLY in the description, I want his number.





That's about the worst thing you should do to find out anything. FFL's usally do not know all the laws, and in some cases , know just what it takes to get them by. What someone needs to do is write a letter to the tech branch of the ATF and get an answer that way.

... an hey wait, SOMEONE ALREADY DID .....



Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.


We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch





Looks like as long as Bushmaster, Amralite, Stag Arms, ect.... says they sold it as a stripped lower , you are fine.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 3:01:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
[It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol.



Doc, you have obviously given this a lot of thought but you are very, very wrong.

It makes NO DIFFERENCE what an FFL puts on the 4473. You are treating the 4473 as some sort of "registration" vehicle which it isn't. You are welcome, of course, to ask your FFL to write anything he wants on the form but the ATF already knows if a receiver is a complete firearm or not when it was sold by the manufacturer and what box the FFL checks cannot supercede that.

In fact, I can see people getting into real trouble relying on some bubba ffl to document their pistol builds. Case in point.........Bubba FFL has some old "stripped lowers" in stock that he has had for a while (he traded for them with another FFL at a gunshow a few years ago) . He uses _DR's method of establishing that it is a pistol by writing it on the 4473. Well, bubba has had these for a long time and didn't know that they were originally shipped from the manufacturer as complete rifles that someone pulled apart a LONG time ago. See the problem? Bubba doesn't have the ability to turn a former rifle into a pistol with the stroke of his pen. As per the ATF rules, once a rifle, always a rifle and they know in what state the receiver was in when it was "disposed into commerce" (sold) via the manufacturer's reporting.

Everyone, just make sure your stripped receiver came from the manufacturer that way and don't worry what the FFL writes (or doesn't write) on the 4473.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:30:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 11:53:57 AM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By _DR:
[It must say "PISTOL" on the BATF 4473 (BATF Yellow form) for a receiver to be legally built into a pistol.



Doc, you have obviously given this a lot of thought but you are very, very wrong.

It makes NO DIFFERENCE what an FFL puts on the 4473. You are treating the 4473 as some sort of "registration" vehicle which it isn't. You are welcome, of course, to ask your FFL to write anything he wants on the form but the ATF already knows if a receiver is a complete firearm or not when it was sold by the manufacturer and what box the FFL checks cannot supercede that.

In fact, I can see people getting into real trouble relying on some bubba ffl to document their pistol builds. Case in point.........Bubba FFL has some old "stripped lowers" in stock that he has had for a while (he traded for them with another FFL at a gunshow a few years ago) . He uses _DR's method of establishing that it is a pistol by writing it on the 4473. Well, bubba has had these for a long time and didn't know that they were originally shipped from the manufacturer as complete rifles that someone pulled apart a LONG time ago. See the problem? Bubba doesn't have the ability to turn a former rifle into a pistol with the stroke of his pen. As per the ATF rules, once a rifle, always a rifle and they know in what state the receiver was in when it was "disposed into commerce" (sold) via the manufacturer's reporting.

Everyone, just make sure your stripped receiver came from the manufacturer that way and don't worry what the FFL writes (or doesn't write) on the 4473.



If that is the case then I have been misinformed by my FFLs. I apologize if I have perpetuated erroneous information. Looks like I still need to obtain documentation from the manufacturer of the receiver to ensure legality.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:48:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
Looks like I still need to obtain documentation from the manufacterer of the receiver to ensure legility.



Need to? No. Is documentation from the manufacturer the only documentation the ATF cares about should a question arise in the future? Yes.

Building a pistol is no different than building a rifle from a kit or parts. There are laws in place that require that it conform to certain characteristics (16in barrel for rifles, no buttstock for pistols etc etc). We are not talking about NFA items here. There is no need for "permission" to build a Non-NFA firearm.

Personally, I would NEVER buy a pre-built rifle receivered pistol. Nor would I ever use a stripped receiver that I couldn't ABSOLUTELY verify was never built into a rifle........PERSONALLY (EVEN if Bushmaster, for example, sent you a letter in triplicate that they sold that receiver stripped, you never know if it's first or second owner had configured it as a rifle at some point in time.)

Buy NEW, enjoy the demise of the 50oz weight limit, let your imagination run wild, and HAVE FUN!

Thats what it's all about.

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