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Posted: 9/11/2004 11:27:43 AM EST
I'm in the process of getting my CCW in MO and was thinking about scenerios that I may encounter. I thought of several that were fairly far fetched, but something I've seen more than once is a domestic argument in public - in the parking lot, at a resturant, once in a sunny city park at 11:00am. None of these escalated beyond name calling and over dramatics, but say the guy pushed the woman , say he hit her, say she locked herself in the car and he broke a window to try and get at her, say he pulled a knife. How long would you watch this unfold before intervening. My thoughts are that you should never draw to make a point - only if you plan to use it. At what point would you morally or legal be able "use it". Would it make a difference if it was a man and women vs. two men fighting over a women or two women fighting over a man?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 11:43:39 AM EST
what if what if what if....................... what if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.....


J

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 11:47:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
what if what if what if....................... what if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.....


J


Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:14:55 PM EST
if he pulled a knife, it would be over.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:23:17 PM EST
in VA if you popped the knife wielder (assuming the woman was not your wife or daughter) you'd certainly go to jail...And likely to prison!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:40:23 PM EST
That doesnt sound quite right. It shouldnt matter who is about to be gravely harmed or murdered, if their life is in danger, its your resposibility(if your up to it) to do something.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:46:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 12:46:30 PM EST by Smitty59]
In this kind of situation it's critical to understand the laws of the state you are in. While morally you would be justified in intervening if you reasonably thought someone's life was in danger, you might get a good citizen award in one state and a prison term in the other.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:53:06 PM EST
jryag,

Become very, very familiar with your state laws. Those will (legally) guide you. This is very important. Unfortunately, the moral and legal divide may be large in your state.

Here in Texas, drawing my weapon does not mean that I used deadly force. We also are able to protect others.

Packing.org has great info. Also, choose your CHL class carefully. My instructor worked for the DA's office, and two attorneys from that office gave briefings.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:03:22 PM EST
This is why I sometimes hate taking training. There's always one of these WHAT IF EVERYTHING guys in the classroom portions.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:25:25 PM EST
markm,

IM to ya.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:17:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:32:36 PM EST
What if the guy was really drunk, and after he pulled a knife, slipped and fell onto the street where a passing bus ran him over. Would she go out with you?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:44:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By W-W:
in VA if you popped the knife wielder (assuming the woman was not your wife or daughter) you'd certainly go to jail...And likely to prison!



That's F#%*ed up... Just aboutv every cop/jail guard is aware of (the name escapes me) training film where it's demonstrated that an assailant with a knife as close as 21ft is a deadly threat. You cannot draw and fire in the time it would take the knife-man to cover the 21ft and stab/cut you.
What's that old sayinf?
Charge a gun.. Run from a knife...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:50:32 PM EST
Here's a clue. If you see shit like that going on, you CALL THE COPS. Do you want to go to jail and/or lose everything you have or ever will have for a stranger? You're not a cop. You don't have any obligation legally to intervene on ANYONE's behalf..and you new gun carriers who think you're now a junior g-man because you have a pistol are going to get a nasty surprise.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:58:53 PM EST

...you CALL THE COPS ... You don't have any obligation legally to intervene on ANYONE's behalf

I agree, by all means call the cops first if you can and have time, and if things will wait, wait on them. I doubt you'd even have a chance to reach for your phone, and you might just have to grow some balls and be a man and do something you really dont want to. Legally, you may not have an obligation, and you may risk everything you own, but you are as wrong as the person with the knife if you dont do something. If this type of dilemma is a problem for you, maybe you shouldnt be wearing a gun either.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:06:49 PM EST
I feel misinterperted by several and belittled by others. I think it's important to ask "what if" questions. Few things in life are black and white and I'd rather contemplate the grey while in an sensible state of mind as opposed to stressful split seconds. I don't remember stating that I feel like a vigilante or superman because I'm about to get my permit. In fact, it's quite the opposite - Having the responsiblity of choosing when and how to use a weapon scares the be-jesus out of me. I hope I'm never in a situation where I have to make that decision, but if I am I'll feel much more confident in my decision (watch someone get hurt vs. hurting someone) and less like to regret it if I put a little fore-thought into it. Calling the cops in great idea...but in the meantime? I'm seriously asking for help here. BTW- I'll check the Missouri statues and check with my CCW instructor. I like the idea about asking a DA.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:12:03 PM EST
When I got my permit I thought about these things. Then after a little while I realized it's not my job to play freelance cop. I carry for my protection, not someone else's. If you see something like that, call the cops from your cell phone, be a good witness and let them handle it.

After you called the cops, you can always yell at the guy to stop because the cops are on the way, but it's not your place to intervene. As far as you know, the guy could be the woman's drunk husband and they are having their weekly fight in the parking lot of the bar.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:36:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By AK103K:

...you CALL THE COPS ... You don't have any obligation legally to intervene on ANYONE's behalf

I agree, by all means call the cops first if you can and have time, and if things will wait, wait on them. I doubt you'd even have a chance to reach for your phone, and you might just have to grow some balls and be a man and do something you really dont want to. Legally, you may not have an obligation, and you may risk everything you own, but you are as wrong as the person with the knife if you dont do something. If this type of dilemma is a problem for you, maybe you shouldnt be wearing a gun either.



It isn't a problem for me. I'm not getting involved in anyone else's shit unless it threatens me or mine, then I'm going to destroy the targets. If you want to blame someone for me having this attitude, blame the lawyers and the cops.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:56:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 3:59:07 PM EST by SO-COM]
I'd like to think that if I drew to help someone I'd be at a distance that was safe for me (21+ feet) to do demand the cease and get on the ground. If they didn't it would be clear what needed to be done. I'd rather goto jail for brandishing a firearm, then goto jail for popping someone to save someone else. Even if the guy didn't die.

I can't believe anyone should have to sit back and do nothing when they can help another. Indifference like that is what we all seem to preach about the lack of muslim outcry. Honestly, I'm more worried about what I'm packing for a firearm and how I'm going to conceal it completely.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:03:14 PM EST
Upon additional reflection and consideration of the input, I think I lean toward leaving the scene and calling the cops. I couldn't watch someone be seriously hurt or killed and sleep very well. I'll just walk away, after all it's not my problem. That's why I'm getting my CCW permit - to protect myself and those I love. Who knows, maybe she deserves it. It's not like it's going to impact the little bubble I live in. I'm sure I can find someway to rationalize away any guilt I might feel. Or maybe, just maybe, that's one of the cancers that's eating this country. I don't even know my nieghbor, so why help them in a way I would want my sister, mother, daughter helped. Both arguements seem ligite, but the bottom line is I got a family to go home to and provide for. I couldn't let some good samaritan BS get in the way of that.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:28:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:21:48 PM EST
Self defense is the key word here. You are not Rambo and if you want to be a Cop go apply. CCW is only to be used where loss of life is threatened, no question. Your attitude should not change after you carry. Do what you would do before you had CCW until all other options are exhausted.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:22:10 PM EST
Good point, and more importantly, I don't think you could count on her in court either.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:56:30 PM EST
Keep in mind when you pull your gun you are escalating the situation. You are putting the other guy in a do or die senario. If he wants to have at it, then you are forced to shoot him to defend yourself.

This is where the attorney conducting the lawsuit for this guy's family will rip you apart. YOU escalated the situation to a deadly force encounter, then killed this guy. YOU got into somebody else's business and an unnessasary shooting was the outcome.

The CCW weapon is not for scaring off the badguys or thumping your chest. It is for eliminating threats to you and your family. If my gun ever leaves it's holster there is a 90% chance I am going to drop the hammer. If not, then no one ever needs to know I am carrying.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:32:18 PM EST
I posted a thread like this not long ago too... I decided its stupid to wonder about the what ifs...

Just use your good sense and judgement... If you lack good sense and judgement then you have no business carrying CCW.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:45:44 PM EST
What if OJ jumped out of the bushes doing the Can Can in a Green sweater while wearing a Catcher's mask, Numb Nuts?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:47:20 PM EST
Several years ago, I witnessed a "love triangle" double homicide & suicide at close proximity right outside my office window, in mid-day. It was not a pleasant experience. However, even if I had been carrying (which is damn near impossible to do legally in the extremely liberal democrat big-city area where this occurred), I must say I would not be inclined to get involved in a situation like this. It is just not worth it. I had no personal knowledge of the circumstances or the individuals, nor did I really care to learn more as it was immediately clear that at least one if not all 3 of them were unstable & dangerous. Tragic -- of course -- but worth risking my own safety AND having to deal with hellacious legal hassles thereafter? Nope, not to me.

On another fun day, a friend and I were held up at gunpoint by a strung-out kid. He was so freaked that he was literally shaking, and quickly took the $7 we tossed his way (hey, we were broke 20-somethings) and ran. I still thank god for making it through that experience of having a loaded handgun a foot from my forehead. I cannot say for certain if we might have had enough time to draw -any- kind of weapons as he basically snuck up on us in a residential garage i.e. we were backed in to a corner with no exit and limited outward visibility (I HATE being in that position BTW and perhaps this is one reason why). But given any reasonable chance to either defend against the initial attack or stop the kid as he turned to run back to his crack pipe, I would've drawn without question.

The reality is that most of these kind of situations develop in a real hurry. Situational awareness is a key skill to develop.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:29:37 AM EST
I dont think the "what if's" are a stupid thing, no matter how stupid they seem to some, at least your thinking about things and how you might work them out. The minute you stop thinking about things, you should probably leave your gun at the house. If you have at least thought of how you would handle it, you wont have to come up with a plan as its happening, just maybe modify it as it comes apart. You cant plan for everything or expect everything to go as you've planned, but at least you've got some sort of a plan.

I find it interesting that so many here are driven by what "might" happen after the fact and how afraid they are of what the lawyers are going to do to them in court, be it criminal or civil. I see a New York City "mind your own business" mentality here and its not a very comforting thing. I'll bet that if it was your mom or wife, or daughter being assaulted, you would rather that someone else would be the one who happens upon the scene than one of those here who chooses not to get involved because they fear what might happen to them in court or in public opinion. I guess if your lucky, they at least just dialed 911 and stood by and watched them get raped, beaten, or killed, so they could give the police a report. Somehow I have a feeling they would just walk away so they wouldnt have to get involved. Then again, if the "bad guy" happened to see that they saw him do the act, and came after them when he was done, they can at least protect themselves because they have their gun along. I wonder if they have a "what if" for that whole scenario, or will they just stand there looking pretty and crap their pants?

I'm not advocating vigilantism or being or thinking your a tough guy because you have a gun. I'm not saying you should go look for trouble or try to act as a cop or think its your responsibility to take care of everyone you think needs help. Far from it. But if something starts to happen in front of you, and you are the only one there at that very moment and someone is in need of obvious help, then it IS your responsibility as a person to act somehow. You dont have to draw your weapon, you dont even have to show it, just do something to stop or delay or redirect the attack. Then again, you may very well just have to shoot someone. Wearing a gun is a real pain in the ass. It tears up your clothes, your body, your furniture and car seats, and it has a real good chance of getting you in trouble by just doing the "right" thing. If any of that bothers you, I say it again, maybe you shouldnt be wearing it if your not up to it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:09:06 AM EST

I've seen more than once is a domestic argument in public - in the parking lot, at a resturant, once in a sunny city park at 11:00am. None of these escalated beyond name calling and over dramatics, but say the guy pushed the woman , say he hit her, say she locked herself in the car and he broke a window to try and get at her, say he pulled a knife. How long would you watch this unfold before intervening. My thoughts are that you should never draw to make a point - only if you plan to use it. At what point would you morally or legal be able "use it". Would it make a difference if it was a man and women vs. two men fighting over a women or two women fighting over a man?
anywhere, at any time, with anyone, I would get involved and call the police asap on my cell phone. it would only take the guy to push the girl for me to act.
if she was crying and he was still swearing at her, in public, i would say something to him.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 10:57:56 AM EST
DON'T EVER pull your weapon out of your holster, unless it is absolutely imperative that you are going to USE it. Now granted, that's easier said than done, but try to live by that.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:43:45 PM EST
Hey,jrayg at least your thinking! I tryed to IM you but neither IM or e-mail are enabled . If you want e-mail me and I'll try to help you out.Take care.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:47:35 PM EST
In Washington State you can prevent others from physically harming anyone. You can also defend yourself and the lives of those you love.

Don't make it visible unless you plan on using it.

MT
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:20:08 PM EST
In all honesty, I think its best to just not get involved unless you simply have no choice.

If there is a domestic argument in a parking lot, like a previous post mentioned, best just to call the police and let them handle it.

Chances are if you get involved and LEOs ride up on the situation cuz someone else called them you might be mistaken for a BG. After all, all they know right then is they are rolling up on a violent situation and low and behold there you are waving a gun round... could get yourself shot.

I would imagine that if you DO have to do someting, just yelling at the BG that you've called the police may be enuf to get him to go away.

But too many what ifs... you can "what if" yourself to death.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 9:56:49 AM EST
in this case i'd go with a verbal intervention. throw the biggest screaming fit of your life and berate the guy mercilessly. get others involved, throw things, set off car alarms, honk horns- make the biggest scene you possibly can. i can't remember where i heard that this was a good technique for halting domestic disturbances.

obviously you're stickin' your neck out here, but you would be by shootin' the sob too.

just my thoughts- less legal reprocusions than the other way. and you at least tried another route if you do wing up poppin' the guy. just my thoughts.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:22:47 PM EST
Thanks for the advice so far. I think I can receive email now.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:28:02 PM EST
I would not get myself involved in anyone else's domestic disputes.

Hell for all we know that could be their idea of foreplay.

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:21:05 PM EST
Neo Con makes a good point. WHen you get involved with other people, you might not know what is going on. As a LEO I have been on two calls of a rape in progress that turned out to be couples engaging in a little role-playing to spice up their love life. While working undercover I had a good citizen draw down on me because he thought I was assaulting an elderly woman instead of realizing that I was trying to arrest a major drug dealer.
And you don't know what the aftermath will be. One good friend of mine intervened in a situation and by the time it was all over he had lost his house, his daughter had been crippled in retaliation, and his wife divorced him. You carry a CCW for self defense. If the other party doesn't think their life is important enough to take care of their personal safety, why should you?
The other side of the coin, of course, is that if it is my daughter and you don't help her I'm going to be very, very unhappy with you. Tough decision, and one you need to make now and be able to live with it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:49:23 PM EST
I know this sounds selfish, but since the situation didn't directly involve me, I'd beat a retreat to my car and call the cops. A few LEOs types I've spoken with have said that, as long as you can leave a situation without interference, it is difficult to justify self-defense.

And intervening in a domestic violence case is just insane.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 9:42:16 PM EST
She would get a cell phone call to 911 from me.... and thats about it really. She really should have had her own gun. I am not out to save anyone except myself, my wife, and my kids. If you CHOOSE not to take the proper steps to defend yourself - Not my problem. If you know me, and you consider taking some CCW training, and I find out about it... I'm taking you to the range... To shoot my guns, with my ammo, and 9 times out of 10... on my dime. I will answer any questions you might have, and do anything I can to help you make the right, informed, choice. But, if you refuse to take that first step, no help from me... sorry. It's like that old story about the neighbor some guy somewhere had who was outwardly against gun ownership. The only promise he ever made to that neighbor was "Thats fine with me, if I see someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night, you can rest assured that I would NEVER use any of my guns to save you!" (I wonder if that has ever actually been said... LOL!)
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:58:18 AM EST

The other side of the coin, of course, is that if it is my daughter and you don't help her I'm going to be very, very unhappy with you. Tough decision, and one you need to make now and be able to live with it.



Well, I disagree, because the police are responsible for the welfare of the subjects in general, right? I am only responsible for myself and immediate family. I am sorry to say but if it is not me that is in harms way I am not going to intervene to help your daughter. That is what the cops are for. heck, they all have unlimited CCW now, so there should be one around to help out, right? The laws are too slanted against the gun owner, and it would not be worth it for me to fight a legal battle for stepping in.

And Jrayg, I would think carefully about your scenerio and understand that you should not intervene unless your own life is in danger and as a last resort. Don't try to run around town trying to be a hero. Chances are you will never need to draw your gun in self defense, but it is a nice feeling to know you can protect yourself if you need to. Be smart and be safe. It is a great responsibility.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:53:25 AM EST
>>Well, I disagree, because the police are responsible for the welfare of the subjects in general, right? I am only responsible for myself and immediate family. <<
If you read my whole post, that is pretty much what I said, so i'm not sure whyyou would disagree. My point is that there is a lot of pro and con on both sides, and you need to decide how far you are willing to go BEFORE the situation confronts you.
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