I can't do a Glock for these reasons:
-  I hate the grip angle
-  I hate the trigger
-  I hate DAO
-  I hate that there are no safeties
-  ...and most of all, I'm just "not professional enuf" (that I know of)

What modern 9mm handgun (I already have a 1911, and love it) has these features:
Single action
A non-retarded grip angle
A safety
A good reputation
A reasonable (sub-$400 used) price
ETA: Available threaded barrel

CZ
Never understood the "safety" issue when for years revolvers had no safeties and nobody said word one about it.

No blame should be placed on the user or the company for the grip angle. It's a matter of choice and preference, both yours and theirs.

Good thing there are so many choices of a good pistol out there, I don't think you'll have a problem finding the perfect one for you

H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though.

Quoted: H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though.

I liked the USPs I've shot.  Can you get a threaded barrel for a 9mm USP, and does anyone know if they'll function with a can?

Quoted: Quoted: H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though. I liked the USPs I've shot.  Can you get a threaded barrel for a 9mm USP, and does anyone know if they'll function with a can?

Yes and Yes.

Jarvis makes threaded barrels for the USP.

You want single action, like a 1911?

Or a DA/SA?

BTW, +1 HK, Browning or CZ. You just have to look around. CZ and Browning being much cheaper. Also Beretta, I'm no Beretta fan, but they are decent enough guns and they meet your requirements. No idea what has threaded barrels and what doesn't, I'm not into them, so I haven't looked...sorry.

If you are willing to give up a safety I also recommend Sig.

Quoted: CZ Never understood the "safety" issue when for years revolvers had no safeties and nobody said word one about it.

+1000000000000000 Reliable, Dead accurate, great grip, affordable but quality.

CZ75B or compact or P01 or PCR.

Quoted: Browning Hi Power Clone.

+1 for a BHP

Or forgot to mention, S&W makes several pistols with all those features.

I really like the SW 5906
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/974946.html

That gun is from the PD of the city I live in. I've talked with several of the officers during training. They likes the 5906 well enough; the only issue is that they are a bit more complex to field strip and clean then say, a glock.

Quoted: CZ Never understood the "safety" issue when for years revolvers had no safeties and nobody said word one about it.

Simple...

Revolvers don't come with a bone stock 5.5 pound trigger pull, nor the common mod to make it an even more dangerous 3.5#.

Quoted: Quoted: CZ Never understood the "safety" issue when for years revolvers had no safeties and nobody said word one about it. Simple... Revolvers don't come with a bone stock 5.5 pound trigger pull, nor the common mod to make it an even more dangerous 3.5#.

glock

Quoted: dangerous 3.5#.

Do you think carrying a 1911 (standard 3.5#) triggerpull cocked & UN-locked is safe? would you carry one like that yourself? Think many others would think that's safe? Does the Glock trigger modified with a 3.5# pull make the weapon substantially safer than a cocked & unlocked 1911? I contend it does not. Many others do as well.

The only firearm that comes close to what you're looking for is the Hk USP 9 SD.

Ain't gonna find one for under 400 though.  With all the features you mentioned up there, I dont think ANY firearm will do it for under 400.

Quoted: Quoted: H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though. I liked the USPs I've shot.  Can you get a threaded barrel for a 9mm USP, and does anyone know if they'll function with a can?

+1, yes and yes.  Most people just get a barrel for a 9mm USP Tactical if they want to have a can.  

Quoted: Quoted: CZ Never understood the "safety" issue when for years revolvers had no safeties and nobody said word one about it. Simple... Revolvers don't come with a bone stock 5.5 pound trigger pull, nor the common mod to make it an even more dangerous 3.5#.

Not dangerous unless you pull it

Also, it's apples and oranges to compare a DAO or a Glock "Safe Action" trigger system with a SA.  They're different animals, regardless of weight.  A DA or DAO will always have much more travel than a SA because the DA/DAO has to cock the hammer/striker and then release it, while the SA only has to release the hammer (striker if we're talking about old guns).  

+1. You should keep your finger out of the trigger guard at all times and you won't have a problem. I've handled guns for years and never had an ND.

Shave the glock grip to 1911 angle. Change the glock connector to 3.5#. Someone sells a manual safety for glocks that even glock approves. Glock does not have a double action trigger.

Quoted: Quoted: dangerous 3.5#. Do you think carrying a 1911 (standard 3.5#) triggerpull cocked & UN-locked is safe? would you carry one like that yourself? Think many others would think that's safe? Does the Glock trigger modified with a 3.5# pull make the weapon substantially safer than a cocked & unlocked 1911? I contend it does not. Many others do as well.

The GLOCK trigger has a longer travel and built in trigger safety, but no, I would not be uncomfortable carrying a 1911 with the safety off. I carried a Hi-Power for a while and didn't use the safety.

Quoted: ... What modern 9mm handgun (I already have a 1911, and love it) has these features: Single action A non-retarded grip angle A safety A good reputation A reasonable (sub-$400 used) price ETA: Available threaded barrel

In addition to some of the suggestions above, the Taurus 92 series could also fit the bill for your listed requirements.  Same ergonomics as the Beretta 92 (for good or bad), but (unlike most Berettas) can be carried cocked-&-locked and shot SA exclusively.  Reliable and reasonably-priced, as well.  Recent models have a de-cocker in addition to the safety.

I would persoanlly look for a good, used BHP to fit your bill, but it was already listed and I had to contribute something fresh to the discussion.

Quoted: Quoted: ... What modern 9mm handgun (I already have a 1911, and love it) has these features: Single action A non-retarded grip angle A safety A good reputation A reasonable (sub-$400 used) price ETA: Available threaded barrel In addition to some of the suggestions above, the Taurus 92 series could also fit the bill for your listed requirements.  Same ergonomics as the Beretta 92 (for good or bad), but (unlike most Berettas) can be carried cocked-&-locked and shot SA exclusively.  Reliable and reasonably-priced, as well.  Recent models have a de-cocker in addition to the safety. I would persoanlly look for a good, used BHP to fit your bill, but it was already listed and I had to contribute something fresh to the discussion.

Good idea, I find the Beretta 92 (same would go for the Taurus) fits my hands better than a Glock personally, even though I can make either work for me.  

In fact, the grip on a Beretta feels better than a 1911 to me.  Also, a Beretta/Taurus already has a barrel that extends slightly past the slide, which may make it eaiser to have threaded for use with a can.  

If you use it with a can, you will need to get sights with a higher profile so you can still aim without the can blocking the sights.  

Quoted: Quoted: dangerous 3.5#. Do you think carrying a 1911 (standard 3.5#) triggerpull cocked & UN-locked is safe? would you carry one like that yourself? Think many others would think that's safe? Does the Glock trigger modified with a 3.5# pull make the weapon substantially safer than a cocked & unlocked 1911? I contend it does not. Many others do as well.

That's a good theory, and based in poor logic.

If you carry a "cocked and locked" 1911 style weapon, the safety should come off when it clears leather, not 1/2 second before a shot is fired.

The locked part is to prevent unwanted discharges, much like the grip safety.  Same as the Glock with it's trigger safety, drop safety, and "half cocked striker".

Pulling the trigger on either weapon make them fire...........................

Generally the lighter the trigger the more accurate the weapon. If you are gonna shoot, it's safer to shoot accurately.

EDIT----------------------

As an FYI most police holster will not close properly on pistols that have thier "safeties" engaged. The one exception might be Berreta, because the safeties are so low profile. Most safeties are used simply as decockers, like SIG.

In other words in the holster the the gun is ready to fire as soon as the trigger is pulled.

The only exceptions are 1911 style weapons, most of which must be locked to be holstered properly.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though. I liked the USPs I've shot.  Can you get a threaded barrel for a 9mm USP, and does anyone know if they'll function with a can? +1, yes and yes.  Most people just get a barrel for a 9mm USP Tactical if they want to have a can.

I would suggest getting a USP9 and putting a jarvis threaded barrel in it. The USP9SD barrel has a funky threading, whereas you could get the normal 1/2x28 on the jarvis barrel

Haha, nice sig line Bob :-)

Quoted: Browning Hi Power Clone.

+1

Look at the line of CZ pistols, particularly at the CZ75b. It is DA/SA, but it can be carried cocked and locked and its SA trigger pull is good and crisp.

Nobody's said Ruger yet.  How odd.

Anyway, I'd go with one of those given your requirements.  A little heavy, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Only bad thing I can really say about them is I've only tooled with one Ruger semi that had a hammer, and it was a bitch to cock back.  But hey, go to a gunshop/pawnshop and try one out, see how you like it.

Quoted: That's a good theory, and based in poor logic. If you carry a "cocked and locked" 1911 style weapon, the safety should come off when it clears leather, not 1/2 second before a shot is fired. The locked part is to prevent unwanted discharges, much like the grip safety.  Same as the Glock with it's trigger safety, drop safety, and "half cocked striker". Pulling the trigger on either weapon make them fire...........................

I find your criticism only partially valid. You have a good point about the DRAW on SHTF. While some debate "when" to flip the safety on a 1911 SHTF I agree with your assessment so for the sake of argument we'll deem that the proper way to disengage (as it leaves the holster). Since the 1911 grip is depressed in this case, a triggerpull = Bang! from each pistol making both pistols equally (un)safe in this regard.

However, The concensus of pistol owners with safeties DO NOT DISENGAGE the safety on a non SHTF. If I remove mine from the leather to clean, or for any other reason outside of SHTF, the safety is ON until I am cognizant of the situation/surroundings and I am prepared to safely clear the pistol. If that safety is on I KNOW or have reason to suspect she's loaded. Fatigue, negligence, stupidity all require this active step of flipping the safety AND trigger pull to perform a ND. Glock doesn't have this protection and I hope for the sake of the argument that NDs by and large do NOT occur (by the numbers) during SHTF, but when shooters are "safe" at home, range, etc when they are overconfident, tired, negligent, etc. Therefore the pistol is unsafe.

The trigger comparison is apples to oranges? Maybe so. Or maybe Fuji v. Granny Smith. I would put it to the old timers back in the day that very few cops would, or perhaps even could walk the beat with a duty revolver sporting a 3.5 pound trigger or even a 5.5 pound trigger. There you have a DA trigger comparison that people would find unsafe.

I don't have the numbers (possibly none of us do) but if possible I think it would be very telling about the amount of Glock NDs v the amount of other duty pistol NDs for LE. I have suspicions about the numbers, even though many interpretations could indeed be formed whatever they might be.

Regardless, I find the pistol is unsafe and I am not professional enough to shoot myself in the leg during a safety demonstration, so I'll stick with my trusted (AND TESTED) 1911. I have yet to have a ND (knock wood) and I know from exp that I have no prob instinctively flipping the safety in SHTF. I contend that the absence of an external safety was a Design flaw of Glocks based on their overconfidence of their new technology. Most advocates for Glocks are going to defend their "trusty" weapon no matter what the criticism may be, and to them I wish them luck and a smart finger at all times. On second thought, I'll wish that upon ALL of us.  

BHP +1

And as far as Glocks go, I like them.  It was my first pistol.  Easy to learn, shoot, and strip + clean.

However, as my pistol-fu increased, I saw the need for the frame mounted safety.  It will not go bang if something snags the trigger---priceless.

I don't carry Glocks anymore.  I find BHP like an extension of my hand.  And I love SA.

Wanting a sub $400 pistol with the features you listed is not going to happen.

Save your money and buy a quality firearm.  I recommend HK for the features you listed.  It's not going to be cheap.

Quoted: Wanting a sub $400 pistol with the features you listed is not going to happen. Save your money and buy a quality firearm.  I recommend HK for the features you listed.  It's not going to be cheap.

Yes it is. Look for a FN Hi-Power. They can be had for around $400.

The CZ-75 is a great option, too.

Quoted: That's a good theory, and based in poor logic. If you carry a "cocked and locked" 1911 style weapon, the safety should come off when it clears leather, not 1/2 second before a shot is fired.

I have to disagree with you on that one. I dont like the idea of a loaded weapon with no safeties engaged, and pointed at my femoral artery or my foot. Safety should come off when the muzzle is pointed away from you.. or even when the sights are beginning to become aligned onto your target

Quoted: Quoted: That's a good theory, and based in poor logic. If you carry a "cocked and locked" 1911 style weapon, the safety should come off when it clears leather, not 1/2 second before a shot is fired. I have to disagree with you on that one. I dont like the idea of a loaded weapon with no safeties engaged, and pointed at my femoral artery or my foot. Safety should come off when the muzzle is pointed away from you.. or even when the sights are beginning to become aligned onto your target

Until you put your finger on the trigger, the trigger saftey on a Glock is engaged................. So you shouldn't put your finger where, unless you mean to shoot?

Never had a revolver?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's a good theory, and based in poor logic. If you carry a "cocked and locked" 1911 style weapon, the safety should come off when it clears leather, not 1/2 second before a shot is fired. I have to disagree with you on that one. I dont like the idea of a loaded weapon with no safeties engaged, and pointed at my femoral artery or my foot. Safety should come off when the muzzle is pointed away from you.. or even when the sights are beginning to become aligned onto your target Until you put your finger on the trigger, the trigger saftey on a Glock is engaged................. So you shouldn't put your finger where, unless you mean to shoot? Never had a revolver?

im kind of confused on what you said. But, I dont own/carry a glock or revolver for CCW

Quoted: I contend that the absence of an external safety was a Design flaw of Glocks based on their overconfidence of their new technology. Most advocates for Glocks are going to defend their "trusty" weapon no matter what the criticism may be, and to them I wish them luck and a smart finger at all times. On second thought, I'll wish that upon ALL of us.

What about SA and their XD/HS2000 pistol? They had plenty of time to make the choice to add a safety to the Croatian pistol. Hell, the Croatian .mil could have chosen to add one but they kept them the same as Glock. The S&W M&P does not have one either. If it really is that necessary to have a manual safety, you would think they would have added one along the line somewhere.

Quoted: What modern 9mm handgun (I already have a 1911, and love it) has these features: Single action     Well it is DA/SA A non-retarded grip angle  Depends on your pref. A safety     i agree that is why I sold the Glock 23 A good reputation     Great rep with owners. A reasonable (sub-$400 used) price     360- to 380- new ETA: Available threaded barrel      ?Unknown?

   

I sold my Glock 23.  Kept the S&W.  Love This Thing Ruger P95 "The Warthog".

"Ruger P. Low cost (Buy lots of ammo w savings). Reliable. Ugly. Loved by owners. Hated by non owners. Backed by Ruger customer service and reliability.

The A-10 warthog of handguns.  No pilot wants it. Once they fly it you cant pry them away.  They always come home no matter how many shots they take."

P95 Thread

Quoted: Until you put your finger on the trigger, the trigger saftey on a Glock is engaged................. So you shouldn't put your finger where, unless you mean to shoot? Never had a revolver?

Yes, with a 9 pound triggerpull. And that is precisely why I cited it as a case in point as to why a Glock is unsafe. Do you know of any manfacturers who make or smith a customer's carry pistol to 3.5 pounds? Why don't they, since a lighter pull has advantages? I believe the case is because the disadvantage of ND outweighs the advantages of a lighter trigger. Given your logic, we should not have any problems setting up pistols/revolvers with a 1.5 pound pull either. After all, if your finger wasn't on the trigger at the time in which it shouldn't have been, the gun shouldn't be going off. Clearly, this is absurd for safety reasons.

Quoted: What about SA and their XD/HS2000 pistol? They had plenty of time to make the choice to add a safety to the Croatian pistol. Hell, the Croatian .mil could have chosen to add one but they kept them the same as Glock. The S&W M&P does not have one either. If it really is that necessary to have a manual safety, you would think they would have added one along the line somewhere.

THe first thing that must be established (which the rebuttal dept has had trouble putting together) is that I cite the Glock as unsafe because of the lack of a manual safety combined with the lighter triggerpull.

Can you establish these pistols all have triggerpulls at 3.5 pounds? 5.5? If they are greater than that you are entering closer into the "revolver margin of safety". If they are on par with the Glock triggerpull (of which I don't know, but I'd bet a modest wager the XD is not) then I would contend that in the absence of an external safety, they ARE unsafe pistols. You also have the option to open the can of worms about the XD's grip safety & start a shitstorm about NDs involving grip and NDs involving a snag or a non-grip ad nausem.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: H&K USP--not for under $4-hundo though. I liked the USPs I've shot.  Can you get a threaded barrel for a 9mm USP, and does anyone know if they'll function with a can? +1, yes and yes.  Most people just get a barrel for a 9mm USP Tactical if they want to have a can.   I would suggest getting a USP9 and putting a jarvis threaded barrel in it. The USP9SD barrel has a funky threading, whereas you could get the normal 1/2x28 on the jarvis barrel

http://www.hk-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=211&SITEID=B&PartNumber=709001

or just get it with the can that HK matched to it.

Spend a little more and get a USP.

- I hate the grip angle
- I hate the trigger
- I hate DAO
- I hate that there are no safeties

I love all those things.

XD.

There are only four makes of pistol I will ever buy; Glock, H&K, and Springfield, and Colt. Since Glock does not do it for ya, may I suggest the other three. H&K USP, SA XD or Colt 1911s. All 45ACP of course.

Quoted: Quoted: Until you put your finger on the trigger, the trigger saftey on a Glock is engaged................. So you shouldn't put your finger where, unless you mean to shoot? Never had a revolver? Yes, with a 9 pound triggerpull. And that is precisely why I cited it as a case in point as to why a Glock is unsafe. Do you know of any manfacturers who make or smith a customer's carry pistol to 3.5 pounds? Why don't they, since a lighter pull has advantages? I believe the case is because the disadvantage of ND outweighs the advantages of a lighter trigger. Given your logic, we should not have any problems setting up pistols/revolvers with a 1.5 pound pull either. After all, if your finger wasn't on the trigger at the time in which it shouldn't have been, the gun shouldn't be going off. Clearly, this is absurd for safety reasons.

Well, you COULD always get a NY trigger for a Glock

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Until you put your finger on the trigger, the trigger saftey on a Glock is engaged................. So you shouldn't put your finger where, unless you mean to shoot? Never had a revolver? Yes, with a 9 pound triggerpull. And that is precisely why I cited it as a case in point as to why a Glock is unsafe. Do you know of any manfacturers who make or smith a customer's carry pistol to 3.5 pounds? Why don't they, since a lighter pull has advantages? I believe the case is because the disadvantage of ND outweighs the advantages of a lighter trigger. Given your logic, we should not have any problems setting up pistols/revolvers with a 1.5 pound pull either. After all, if your finger wasn't on the trigger at the time in which it shouldn't have been, the gun shouldn't be going off. Clearly, this is absurd for safety reasons. Well, you COULD always get a NY trigger for a Glock

My suspicion is that heavier trigger pulls do very little to stop idiots that are going to ND a lighter trigger pull.

But with heavier trigger pulls, it's more likely that when the shooter squeezes the trigger that their trigger finger will have to contract so forcefully, that their other fingers will also "squeeze". That generally causes the muzzle to dip when the trigger is squeezed, and has a real bead effect on accuracy.

While that might be the case when the triggerpul exceeds a certain threshhold, say 11-12 pounds I find that a bit problematic given the fact that we have had DA revolvers out there with heavy triggerpulls for a loooong time, and the dip-down is not something people commonly have had to accept. Smoothness of the trigger trumps weight of the pull (though I contend both yield the best combination). Also If we're talking finger discipline (or safety switching) training training and more training out of one side of our mouth, it seems foolish not to also be able to say trigger squeeze training as well.

The heavier trigger weights are a liability control action that most PD's won't live without. I know of at least one NYPD officer who while stomping through the underbrush of Riverside park, lost his footing and caught the trigger guard of his issue S&W on a piece of brush. NYPD issue pistols have very heavy triggers, and it was the heavy trigger that saved him from a ND.

The answer to the Glock grip angle may be this:

www.ccfraceframes.com/Mainpage.htm

Quoted: My suspicion is that heavier trigger pulls do very little to stop idiots that are going to ND a lighter trigger pull.

If you love the 1911 then get a Springfield in 9mm....it has all the features you want.

Have you pulled a 3.5# trigger on a Glock?  Its nothing like a 3.5 on a 1911 or other firearm.
I personaly like the stock 5.5#, but don't see a problem with the 3.5#, it's certainly not "dangerous".



For what you wan't, I would go with a Browning Pro9/40, or the FN FNP.  They are the same gun, browning just imports them.

They are cheap, maybe $5-600 new if your lucky.
They are DA/SA with a saftey/decocker
They don't have any wierd grip or something.

I personaly would have gotten it over the Glock(I still love my G19 though), but they are not legal in MA.