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Posted: 12/24/2003 6:41:50 AM EDT
I would like to hear your recommendations on the best defensive round for a .45 in a 1911. Thanks
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:29:29 AM EDT
I generally carry Federal 230gr Hydra-Shoks in my personnal 1911.  Unfortunity all I can carry here in the sandbox is 230gr FMJ.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:36:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 7:37:54 AM EDT by meltdown]
whatever feeds most reliably.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:45:32 AM EDT
I run Speer 230 grain Gold Dot +P's in my 5" 1911.

It's some ammo Georgia Arms cooked up.

Have not chrono'd it yet. Shoots and feeds good though.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:10:48 AM EDT
CCI gold Dot; WW SXT; Federal HydraShok. Any of them in 230gr, that feeds reliably will get you through the night just fine.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:04:14 PM EDT
Win Ranger (LEO, but available)
Proload Gold Dot
BH Gold Dot

All in 230gr JHP
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:26:54 PM EDT
All I carry in my 1911's are 230gr Ball ammo,
They work just fine
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 10:39:56 PM EDT
Does anybody use the Corbon +P hollowpoints?
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 1:01:58 AM EDT
Yes, there are.  I like the Corbon 165gr+P or 185gr+P, although indoors I use Magsafes or Glasers.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 1:03:19 AM EDT
Defensive ammo should be picked for its reliable operation in your pistol.  Unfortunately, many people pick it for its alleged expansion characteristics in a potential target.  The .45 is big enough that expansion is not a real issue.

Me, I recommend 230gr ball.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 4:34:33 AM EDT
dpmmn and 1911shootist,

What 230gr ball ammo do you guys recommend for self defense? Are there certain characteristics that you look for? Do you look for a higher velocity round or just a more consistant round overall? Or just whatever ball you can get your hands on...

I have always wondered how to make the choice for best ball carry.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 5:28:10 AM EDT
In order:  Black Hills Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger SXT, and Fed HydraShok.  I would give the new Taurus all-copper ammo a shot, but MO state law would classify it as armor-piercing, even though it is made to expand.  They consider any round "made entirely of red metal" to be AP.  This is what happens when laws are made by people who know nothing about the subject matter.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:16:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 12:33:02 PM EDT by QuinlanV]
I prefer to stick to 230gr HP or FMJ. I suggest going to tactical forums and doing a search in the terminal effects section. You can see what types perform the best, then try several and see what works best in your particular handgun.
Right now I am using 230gr Fed Hydra-shocks. Mainly because I have trained with them more than any other defence ammo, and they work well in my TLE. Stay away from the Glasers and ammo of that nature. They tend to be all hype.
You can find lots of good info here.
www.tacticalforums.com/
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:19:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whywork40:
Does anybody use the Corbon +P hollowpoints?



I carry 230gr JHP+P Corbon in my full size and commader as well as my P220.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:22:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whywork40:
Does anybody use the Corbon +P hollowpoints?



No, I have some, but chose not to carry them as I've never shot them throught the 1911 I have.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:52:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 11:13:11 AM EDT by AlanD]
If no JHP reliably feeds in your firearm, or you can’t afford to purchase JHPs because they are more expensive, then you are forced to use ball.  But for everyone else, the use of a modern JHP is superior to ball for defensive use.  The 45acp round produces a formidable wound whether it expands or not, but why not maximize the effectiveness of your weapon.

Modern JHP reliably expand in real life situations.  This results in the production of a larger wound channel and greater tissue damage since the cross-section of the bullet is greater.  Expansion also decreases the chance of over penetration.  If the bullet exits its target it may injure an innocent.  Additionally, you want the bullet to deposit all of its energy into the target (to maximize injury), which will not happen if it exits.

Do some more research before selecting ball as your defensive round (check out ammolab.com). Do you know any law enforcement agencies that carry ball (unless they have no choice)?
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 12:10:44 PM EDT
I used Fed 230 gr Hydra Shok, Speer Gold Dot 230 gr and Rem Golden Saber 230gr.  If JHP doesn't feed for you try the new Cor-Bon 165gr Powr' Ball.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 12:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AlanD:

Do you know any law enforcement agencies that carry ball (unless they have no choice)?



I don't believe that many LEOs carry .45 sidearms, so ball is perhaps not the best choice in their case.  If you can get JHP to work 100 percent reliably in your pistol, then it's obviously a good choice.

I don't worry too much about the *type* of ammo I use so long as it's reliable and accurate.  Plain old Federal red box Eagle works for me, and affords me lots of practice with the same ammo I use for defense.

Which bring up another point.  It's preferable to practice with the same ammo you carry.  That can get expensive with some of the more exotic rounds.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 1:19:06 PM EDT
It doesn't really matter.  Most of the modern JHP from major manufacturers work very well.  Just be sure that they feed properly.  My personal favorite are golden sabers.  They have a fairly round profile making them feed well and they are loaded similarly to ball ammo.  The flash, report and recoil are pretty the same as ball which helps with practicing.  I'm not a fan of hotly loaded rounds.  The extra power is not worth the increased recoil (slower follow up shots) IMHO.

It's preference really...
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:45:21 PM EDT
Federal Hydra-Shocks in 230gr.  They've always fed for me.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:27:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 7:31:10 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Winchester Ranger 230gr or Gold Dot 230gr if you want reliable penetration and expansion.
I like the accuracy of the Hydra-Shok 230gr,and its also a very reliable feeder, but its a dated design, and expansion is hit and miss depending on the clothing it has to go through first.  Remington Golden Sabre has a problem with bullet set back in my opinion, dangerously increasing pressure after even one or two chamberings.  Ball is for practice.  It overpenetrates too much for self defence or law enforcement work.

I avoid +P rounds.  They are usually reliable but can cause cycling problems if your recoil and/or magazine springs aren't set up correctly.  In order to ensure reliability, you should put several hundred of them through your gun.  One box doesn't prove it reliable at feeding and cycling in a particular gun.  Many people aren't willing to do this, since +P rounds tend to carry premium prices. I don't find the recoil objectionable, but they do increase wear on your gun for a slight increase in velocity in most loads.  Ive put literally several thousand rounds of Corbon 230gr +P down range pin shooting, and I can tell you it does take a toll on the guns.  A properly designed .45ACP JHP bullet doesn't need +P velocity to function reliably.

Other designs are just sales gimmicks.


Link Posted: 12/25/2003 8:04:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 8:12:00 PM EDT by bvmjethead]
Lumpy you bring up a good point. Most people just do not shoot enough of the ammo they decide on carrying.

I'd be willing to bet that there are people here on this board that don't even know how many rounds have been fired in their 1911 since the last recoil or firing pin change. These kinds of things will have a great effect on the wear and tear on your pistol. ESPECIALLY shooting +P ammo.

The Georgia Arms stuff I carry in my 1911 is +P stuff with Gold Dot bullets loaded. I do not know the powder, primer or type of case. Georgia Arms lists it at 850 FPS and does not give energy numbers.

It is however new ammunition and I've run plenty of it through my gun to trust it for carry.

It runs $13.75 for a bag of 50 rounds and the part number is G45AF. It can also be purchased in lots of 100 for $27.00 and in lots of 1000 for $260.00.

This is new ammo using all new components people, it is NOT remanufactured or reloaded ammo.

It's accurate, it goes bang every time and for $14 per 50 rounds, it's hard to fault it.

www.georgia-arms.com/power.htm

I do also keep Starfire, regular Gold Dot (non +P) Hydra-Shock, Corbon +P and non +P and some Remington stuff on hand. I switch out every now and then what I carry.

Right now I'm really liking this Ga. Arms stuff cuz I can afford to practice shooting what I'm carrying.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 8:24:26 PM EDT
Another point I forgot to mention, most .45ACP pistols are sighted from the factory for 230gr standard velocity ammunition.  A standard 230 load, with ball for practice is a sound idea.

B, sounds like a good load at a good price.  I like the Gold Dots.

Link Posted: 12/26/2003 2:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 2:19:06 AM EDT by AK_Mike]

Originally Posted By 1911Shootist:
Defensive ammo should be picked for its reliable operation in your pistol.  Unfortunately, many people pick it for its alleged expansion characteristics in a potential target.  The .45 is big enough that expansion is not a real issue.

Me, I recommend 230gr ball.



The great thing is that while the 230gr ball is what was designed to feed in the 1911, and is of greatest feeding reliability, there are many rounds that duplicate the profile for the same reason.  Corbon Powerball as well as Glaser both have the same ball type profile.  Why settle for a nonexpanding 230 grain when you can have an equally reliable feeding round that expands like a hollowpoint for a more than .60 terminal slug...  As for +P rounds, I am not so concerned with longevity as I am putting the bad guy down.  If you are going to shoot a 1911 in the first place, one must be sure that it is utterly reliable, and in many cases that will require some tuning work.  I'll carry a tuned 1911, but I sure like that my Sig P220 never jams, right out of the box.  Personally, I carry a Glock CCP right now because none of my Glocks have EVER, I repeat EVER, jammed.  Doesn't mean they don't for others, nor is it due to my preference, I just want to make sure it goes bang when required.  The 1911 fits me best, and my favorite to shoot regardless.

Something of trivia for cold weather.  In Alaska, heavy winter clothing is common.  It is not uncommon for a hollowpoint to get plugged up from clothing material.  For those reasons, I switch to .45 in the winter cause if I am going to have a plugged up bullet, I might as well make it as big as I can.  I am really liking the Corbon powerball for this reason.  Hardball profile, can't get plugged, yet is a hollowpoint...
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 2:59:28 AM EDT
... As David Byrne used to sing "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was ... "

... Corbon 45ACP +P, 230gr JHP
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 4:19:21 AM EDT
Wow, bvmjethead, you can get Georgia Arms Ammo in Virginia?  The shipping must hurt .  I'm lucky, I can get it at the local funshows.  The GA Arms loaded Gold Dots is some good stuff.  The last batch I bought was loaded in nickle-plated Starline brass, and it was consistent and fed in my old Custom II very well.  I would strongly recommend that since the price is so reasonable, and they have a good track record.  

Ghost
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 5:55:21 AM EDT
Winchester white box USA Q 230grn ball.  Its cheap, and what I use at the range.  Just my $0.02
                             
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 3:14:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 3:15:18 PM EDT by cyanide]
Anything that is 200 grn or better, and zips along at or near 1000 fps. Excellent.

Does not matter if it is or isn't a hollow point.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 7:59:27 PM EDT
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 8:29:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.



No slam, but I don't think so.  I have a video where a manufacturer of body armor shoots himself (as in 6 inches away), repeatedly, with a .44 mag with no harm or trauma.  He isn't using a plate, but he does slip a phonebook underneath to disperse the shock, much like a trauma plate.  Without the phone book, he would only have bruises, pain, and slight trauma, and he was probably using 240gr or better in his magnum travelling up to 1450fps, a third faster than the standard 230gr .45 hardball.  This is only level IIIa he was wearing, not even III (higher rating) or a plate.  In the same video is someone who gets shot 10 feet away with a .308 while wearing LvIII and a plate, and it only caused him to stagger back a few feet, and though it did not cause any trauma, it was unpleasant to say the least.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 8:53:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.



So HOW THE HELL do you explain cops that have been shot with not only .45ACP but even .44mag while wearing Kevlar that lived with nothing more than a bruise????????????

ARE YOU ON CRACK???
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 3:54:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.



So HOW THE HELL do you explain cops that have been shot with not only .45ACP but even .44mag while wearing Kevlar that lived with nothing more than a bruise????????????

ARE YOU ON CRACK???



Well you bring all theses people who survived to Virginia and I will take them down to Quantico for further testing. And no I do not do drugs like your buddies.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.



Someone forgot to tell that to a few of the officers on our Sheriffs Dept.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:22:37 AM EDT
230 gr load using Gold Dot bullets, 230 gr BLack Talons/Rangers, 230 gr Golden Sabers (just watch the bullets for setback).
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:59:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 11:06:44 AM EDT by cyanide]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
230 grain ball in 45 ACP, never has failed yet. You can have all the voodoo ammo in the world and the high tech rounds, if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.



So HOW THE HELL do you explain cops that have been shot with not only .45ACP but even .44mag while wearing Kevlar that lived with nothing more than a bruise????????????

ARE YOU ON CRACK???

you left out the .308

Davis of second chance would shoot himself on tape with a rifle cal. .308 while standing on one leg (and wearing body armor), he lived and never lost balance. It is not quite as bad and it sounds. Just physics, a 230 grn bullet is not going to knock down a adult of normal build. It may leave a bruise, that is it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:51:10 AM EDT
long-rifle-tactical,

You should really know what you're talking about around here before trying to be an expert.


We don't suffer fools well.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 12:03:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 12:03:31 PM EDT
Careful SGB, he knows people at Quantico
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 12:09:30 PM EDT
Gee whiz............


­





........"Semper Fi"
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:04:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
long-rifle-tactical,

You should really know what you're talking about around here before trying to be an expert.


We don't suffer fools well.


Never said or stated that I was an expert, you took it out of context. I posted links here about how the so called bullet proof vest have failed more than once, some of you are so quick to judge others where I am just stating facts and results.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=220691&w=myTopicPop This link is to the LEO forum where I posted links to fatual information that some times they really do not work. www.napo.org/legislative-update/bulletproofvest.htm

Just accept it, some of us have been around the block a few more times than some of you and have seen what happens when criminals are using the lead to there advantage at the cost of LEO lives. I as well do not raise others who act like they know it all and you could read the links and instruct your self prior to opening your mouth and inserting your foot.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:05:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Careful SGB, he knows people at Quantico


I work at Quantico
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:24:29 PM EDT
Oh, God, NOT AN OFFICER!!!!

SEMPER FI!
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:28:18 PM EDT
I work at Disneyland.

Big fuckin deal.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:47:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I work at Disneyland.

Big fuckin deal.



Ninja Mouse!!
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:47:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I work at Disneyland.

Big fuckin deal.



I always wondered who milked Mickey Mouse

Congradulations on your promotion from boot licker for Goofy.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:49:30 PM EDT
Take it to IM like you tried to earlier LRT
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:50:19 PM EDT
OK, guys!  Neutral corners.  Opinions vary, and everyone has one.

Now shake hands and play nice!
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:58:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 2:05:40 PM EDT by Hawkeye]

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By SGB:
long-rifle-tactical,

You should really know what you're talking about around here before trying to be an expert.


We don't suffer fools well.


Never said or stated that I was an expert, you took it out of context. I posted links here about how the so called bullet proof vest have failed more than once, some of you are so quick to judge others where I am just stating facts and results.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=220691&w=myTopicPop This link is to the LEO forum where I posted links to fatual information that some times they really do not work. www.napo.org/legislative-update/bulletproofvest.htm

Just accept it, some of us have been around the block a few more times than some of you and have seen what happens when criminals are using the lead to there advantage at the cost of LEO lives. I as well do not raise others who act like they know it all and you could read the links and instruct your self prior to opening your mouth and inserting your foot.



You might want to read all the info on the link you posted.

I hardly see where Second Chance discontinuing their Ultimax line of vests, because they found that the Zylon material they were using, degraded faster than expected, has ANYTHING to do with all bullet resistant vests allowing a .45 to cause such massive trauma and wounding as you state.

if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs.

Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:20:47 PM EDT

Just accept it, some of us have been around the block a few more times than some of you and have...............


I now how many times I've been around the block. I also know that others here have been around the block a time or two themselves.

Your

....... if a 230 grain strikes a human even if they are wearing Kevlar and a plate, it still will put them down for a trip to shock trauma or sever internal bleeding due to the sternums fragmentation or ribs being slammed into the lungs
is pure bullshit. And tells me how many times you've been around the block......... but then that's my opinion and like Assholes we all have one.

YMMV
s(Iain'tnofuckingnewbee)gb
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:44:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Davis of second chance would shoot himself on tape with a rifle cal. .308 while standing on one leg (and wearing body armor), he lived and never lost balance. It is not quite as bad and it sounds. Just physics, a 230 grn bullet is not going to knock down a adult of normal build. It may leave a bruise, that is it.



I may be mistaken, but I think this is may be the same guy who likes to start off his presentations by shooting himself in the chest with a .44 magnum after slipping a phonebook underneath, like a trauma plate, but does not use the trauma plate because he wants to show how the round won't penetrate.  The guy who does this has done it well over a hundred times.

Another study I saw that was done to dispell myths was that a .45ACP will not knock someone off their feet, even if hit in the spine, it may knock them off balance and thus they fall over on their own accord though.  I have a great video that was made to dispell myths, and a guy gets shot with the .308 10 feet away and the shot guy just staggers back a few feet.  It also shows how even a .44 can bounce right off a car hood, and how some rounds can even bounce off of a car windshield.  Most of it had to do with angle of incidence.  They did some other cool stuff in the video.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 2:43:10 PM EDT
If I was testing vests and "knew" a round wouldn't penetrate the vest, I'd much rather use a phone book over a trauma plate under the vest. Phone books deform, are relatively soft and will provide cushioning of impact as it disperses the impact energy through the seperate pages. Trauma plates are hard and transfer energy through them.

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