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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 4/7/2014 5:18:16 AM EDT
I occasionally see people claim the Korth is the greatest revolver ever. It's hard to discuss this with anyone because only about 1% of have even heard of them, much less handled or fired them. Can someone with experience explain it? I assume they must have some magical action, because I can't imagine they'd be any more accurate, and for me the looks rate below the Colts and Smiths. Are there very many variations?
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 5:28:05 AM EDT
They Might be a Big deal In Germany?????
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 5:52:20 AM EDT
They get their reputation from being basically handmade and low production/high cost.  I only handled one which I didn't fire but the quality of workmenship is very high.


CD
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 6:00:35 AM EDT
Their design, workmanship, and reliability are head and shoulders above other revolvers.
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 7:45:45 AM EDT
Once saw a review where one was fired.  No better than an off the shelf S&W.
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 1:50:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2014 1:52:14 PM EDT by jscheel1]
http://www.guns.com/review/2012/02/06/korth-combat-revolver-review-a-near-perfect-357-except-for/

I'm not in that tax bracket, but if I stumbled across one for a grand, I'd pick one up. There wouldn't be another one at the range too many days................
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 8:51:34 PM EDT
I'd love to get my hands on one -- beautiful machines ---   came oh so close to a very nice Manurhin a few years back ---   but the Korth's and Manurhin's are just guns i dont see pop up very often outside of the miscellaneous auctions ------

At the same time the small gun store i worked at had the Manurhin, there was also a 4" stainless Python for $850 that i passed up because i couldnt afford it  (I worked at a gun shop - go figure)  ----   Oh the humanity    --- this was within the last decade too, not ancient history
Link Posted: 4/8/2014 9:06:02 AM EDT
I'd rather have a classic S&W or Python done up by one of the classic gunsmiths of yesteryear.
Link Posted: 4/8/2014 7:18:52 PM EDT
The difference to a good S&W and a Colt Python is not just the quality and extreme care that it was given in production. The action is a lot different, the trigger is on a roller bearing. Comparing a S&W to a Korth is like comparing a Ruger MkII to a Hämmerli 208.

I have a rimfire Korth that was made in 1969 while Willi Korth was still alive and owned the shop. It is amazing that a rimfire revolver can still relaibly work with such a low trigger weight - and with what characteristics! My K-22 does not get close, neither did my Colt OMM.

Most people who comment negatively have no personal experience with a Korth and just repeat what their envy tells them.
Link Posted: 4/9/2014 7:37:49 AM EDT
What do top revolver shooters use?  ICORE, silhouette, serious hunters...Not Korth.  A 625 would cost a fortune if you only made a few per year.
Link Posted: 4/10/2014 4:28:25 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:


Once saw a review where one was fired.  No better than an off the shelf S&W.
View Quote
I read an article ~ 10 years ago about the DEA looking for an M4 pattern carbine. RRA passed the test, and it was a little more accurate than the. Colt. "The RRA is BETTER" a lot of folks said. Now, I bought the RRA 3 years prior to the DEA Tests because it was cheap and decently made. There were not a lot of good choices back then. It was a good gun, but no way in hell was it better than a Colt 6920 for the clearly defined purpose of an M-Faux.

 



There is a lot, lot more to a gun than accuracy reports from one person's "review."




I've seen and held Korths, but never fired one. They are truly built like a 1930s-50s  Rolls Royce.




I own S&Ws, but grew up shooting a Python. Accuracy is definitely not the only measure in this realm.
Link Posted: 4/13/2014 6:37:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
What do top revolver shooters use?  ICORE, silhouette, serious hunters...Not Korth.  A 625 would cost a fortune if you only made a few per year.
View Quote

Depends on what style of shooting they do. I'm betting that Freedom Arms revolvers are seen frequently due to their accuracy and quality. Dan Wesson would be another one you'd see frequently.
Link Posted: 4/15/2014 1:55:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
What do top revolver shooters use?  ICORE, silhouette, serious hunters...Not Korth.  A 625 would cost a fortune if you only made a few per year.
View Quote


None of those top shooters want to drop $5k on a hand made rare firearm and then drag it out to the tree stand or put 100k worth of ammunition through it just to say they could. Almost no one shoots a Python, a S&W registered magnum, or anything that valuable in any of these activities because they're just too expensive to want to put that kind of wear on. Yea, you will get someone, somewhere, who uses a very old, rare, and valuable firearm for their every day gun. You also get people who drive completely unreliable, exotic, and temperamental cars as their daily drivers. A Korth is the kind of gun you buy because you want one. You buy it because it's hand made. You buy it because it's rare. You buy it because you can. If you're going to rationalize the purchase as it pertains to what other people are using in a given sport, you're completely missing the point.
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 5:06:36 AM EDT
I was just on their site. They make some nice looking revolvers.


 
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 6:56:24 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:


None of those top shooters want to drop $5k on a hand made rare firearm and then drag it out to the tree stand or put 100k worth of ammunition through it just to say they could. Almost no one shoots a Python, a S&W registered magnum, or anything that valuable in any of these activities because they're just too expensive to want to put that kind of wear on. Yea, you will get someone, somewhere, who uses a very old, rare, and valuable firearm for their every day gun. You also get people who drive completely unreliable, exotic, and temperamental cars as their daily drivers. A Korth is the kind of gun you buy because you want one. You buy it because it's hand made. You buy it because it's rare. You buy it because you can. If you're going to rationalize the purchase as it pertains to what other people are using in a given sport, you're completely missing the point.
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Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By GreenLocust:
What do top revolver shooters use?  ICORE, silhouette, serious hunters...Not Korth.  A 625 would cost a fortune if you only made a few per year.


None of those top shooters want to drop $5k on a hand made rare firearm and then drag it out to the tree stand or put 100k worth of ammunition through it just to say they could. Almost no one shoots a Python, a S&W registered magnum, or anything that valuable in any of these activities because they're just too expensive to want to put that kind of wear on. Yea, you will get someone, somewhere, who uses a very old, rare, and valuable firearm for their every day gun. You also get people who drive completely unreliable, exotic, and temperamental cars as their daily drivers. A Korth is the kind of gun you buy because you want one. You buy it because it's hand made. You buy it because it's rare. You buy it because you can. If you're going to rationalize the purchase as it pertains to what other people are using in a given sport, you're completely missing the point.




good points  ---   it makes no sense for a guy to put down a gent driving a Rolls Royce because it does not  perform like his Outlaw Modified on a roundy round course
Link Posted: 4/16/2014 7:49:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2014 7:50:51 AM EDT by Andyd]
If you go to European handgun competitions, especilly those sanctiioned by the German associations, you will be surprised about the number of Korth and Manurhin revolvers.

They are no safe queens but high performance guns.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 5:19:22 PM EDT
Well made revolver, but not even close in craftsmanship to the older Pythons!
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 5:58:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 38spl357:
Well made revolver, but not even close in craftsmanship to the older Pythons!
View Quote


...and you have shot both?! I own both and have to tell you that you are way off.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 8:10:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2014 8:11:18 PM EDT by Green_Canoe]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andyd:


...and you have shot both?! I own both and have to tell you that you are way off.
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Originally Posted By Andyd:
Originally Posted By 38spl357:
Well made revolver, but not even close in craftsmanship to the older Pythons!


...and you have shot both?! I own both and have to tell you that you are way off.



So how's it stack up against a GP-100?  It's gotta be close.





Seriously now...  How would it compare to a Freedom Arms?  (I've handled a Premier Grade Model 97.)
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 6:04:50 AM EDT
Freedom Arms delivers a top product. It does not get any better in a Single Action revolver of current manufacture. I shot one and enjoyed every single shot.

It is hard to find the quality of registered magnums and 1st generation Pythons (Korths and FA 's) in most contemporary production guns.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 6:07:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:



So how's it stack up against a GP-100?  It's gotta be close.





Seriously now...  How would it compare to a Freedom Arms?  (I've handled a Premier Grade Model 97.)
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Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
Originally Posted By 38spl357:
Well made revolver, but not even close in craftsmanship to the older Pythons!


...and you have shot both?! I own both and have to tell you that you are way off.



So how's it stack up against a GP-100?  It's gotta be close.





Seriously now...  How would it compare to a Freedom Arms?  (I've handled a Premier Grade Model 97.)



By the way,

nothing wrong with the GP100. Mine has endured more use than my Korth did and barely shows it. The GP is one of those guns that my sons tortured in the days when daddy reloaded a box of 50 for under three bucks.

The good ole days...
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 12:56:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Andyd:
If you go to European handgun competitions, especilly those sanctiioned by the German associations, you will be surprised about the number of Korth and Manurhin revolvers.

They are no safe queens but high performance guns.
View Quote


Firearm ownership in Germany is extremely expensive, so I'm not surprised that Korth and Manurhin are well represented. By the time you add the cost of liscening, taxes and fees, and the mandutory sports club membership it costs something like $2,500 to own a G19.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 2:29:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2014 2:30:31 PM EDT by jscheel1]
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Originally Posted By 38spl357:
Well made revolver, but not even close in craftsmanship to the older Pythons!
View Quote


Really? You're not even close........................
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 7:23:55 PM EDT
Sorta looks like a Ruger raped a Python! For the price I'd much rather have a matched set of 6" Pythons NIB.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 8:00:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:


Firearm ownership in Germany is extremely expensive, so I'm not surprised that Korth and Manurhin are well represented. By the time you add the cost of liscening, taxes and fees, and the mandutory sports club membership it costs something like $2,500 to own a G19.
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Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
If you go to European handgun competitions, especilly those sanctiioned by the German associations, you will be surprised about the number of Korth and Manurhin revolvers.

They are no safe queens but high performance guns.


Firearm ownership in Germany is extremely expensive, so I'm not surprised that Korth and Manurhin are well represented. By the time you add the cost of liscening, taxes and fees, and the mandutory sports club membership it costs something like $2,500 to own a G19.


Licensing fees depend on the state and municipality. In general it costs between €12.78 to €20 to have a firearm added to a license. A red collector's license costs about €200 to be issued. As a sportsshooter it costs about €70 to 250 for a membership in a gunclub per year. This includes use of the range. V.A.T. is 19%. Used guns are selling cheaper than in the U.S. because of those restrictions.

How in the world did you dream up $ 2,500 for a G19? Please do not spread your misinformation here.

Link Posted: 4/24/2014 4:27:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2014 4:28:45 PM EDT by Sgt_Gold]
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Originally Posted By Andyd:


Licensing fees depend on the state and municipality. In general it costs between €12.78 to €20 to have a firearm added to a license. A red collector's license costs about €200 to be issued. As a sportsshooter it costs about €70 to 250 for a membership in a gunclub per year. This includes use of the range. V.A.T. is 19%. Used guns are selling cheaper than in the U.S. because of those restrictions.

How in the world did you dream up $ 2,500 for a G19? Please do not spread your misinformation here.

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andyd:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
If you go to European handgun competitions, especilly those sanctiioned by the German associations, you will be surprised about the number of Korth and Manurhin revolvers.

They are no safe queens but high performance guns.


Firearm ownership in Germany is extremely expensive, so I'm not surprised that Korth and Manurhin are well represented. By the time you add the cost of liscening, taxes and fees, and the mandutory sports club membership it costs something like $2,500 to own a G19.


Licensing fees depend on the state and municipality. In general it costs between €12.78 to €20 to have a firearm added to a license. A red collector's license costs about €200 to be issued. As a sportsshooter it costs about €70 to 250 for a membership in a gunclub per year. This includes use of the range. V.A.T. is 19%. Used guns are selling cheaper than in the U.S. because of those restrictions.

How in the world did you dream up $ 2,500 for a G19? Please do not spread your misinformation here.



It's not a dream, it's the nightmare that is Euro-socialist style gun control. Everything I'm going to quote I got off of US Army gun Owners in Germany.. I was stationed in Furth back in the mid 1980's when the exchange rate was close to 3 DM to the dollar, but it's only gotten worse since the Euro came along. I got the gun pricing from this gun store. You're lucky they're having a sale right now on Glocks. If you wanted a S&W revolver, an M&P auto, or any other exotic US made handgun the price almost doubles. All prices are in Euros.

Gen 4 Glock 19  695
Range                250
Insurance           100
Safe                   150
Red Card            200
-------------
Total                  1,395

You run that 1,395 Euro's through the universal translator and you get $1928.59 at today's rate of exchange. The numbers I used are for US military personnel who, AFAIK, don't have to pay what a German civilian has to pay for the 130 hour training course that's required for the issuance of a German gun license. The above total also assumes that the German national buys the cheapest safe, and very little ammunition. Once you add in the cost of everything the german civilian has to pay for, it can easily top the $2,500 I quoted.

I have no idea what the used gun market is like in Germany, but unless it's taking 50% off the cost of a new gun it isn't going to impact the overall cost a whole lot. If my numbers are wrong, or my information is wrong, let me know. I know there was a revision of the gun laws around 2003 that removed the requirement to belong to a sportsman's club, but unless you include the cost of a range the exercise is really pointless. Germany is not like the US, there is no federal or other land where you can just walk out into a field and start blasting away.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 8:24:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2014 8:28:11 PM EDT by Andyd]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:


It's not a dream, it's the nightmare that is Euro-socialist style gun control. Everything I'm going to quote I got off of US Army gun Owners in Germany.. I was stationed in Furth back in the mid 1980's when the exchange rate was close to 3 DM to the dollar, but it's only gotten worse since the Euro came along. I got the gun pricing from this gun store. You're lucky they're having a sale right now on Glocks. If you wanted a S&W revolver, an M&P auto, or any other exotic US made handgun the price almost doubles. All prices are in Euros.

Gen 4 Glock 19  695
Range                250
Insurance           100
Safe                   150
Red Card            200
-------------
Total                  1,395

You run that 1,395 Euro's through the universal translator and you get $1928.59 at today's rate of exchange. The numbers I used are for US military personnel who, AFAIK, don't have to pay what a German civilian has to pay for the 130 hour training course that's required for the issuance of a German gun license. The above total also assumes that the German national buys the cheapest safe, and very little ammunition. Once you add in the cost of everything the german civilian has to pay for, it can easily top the $2,500 I quoted.

I have no idea what the used gun market is like in Germany, but unless it's taking 50% off the cost of a new gun it isn't going to impact the overall cost a whole lot. If my numbers are wrong, or my information is wrong, let me know. I know there was a revision of the gun laws around 2003 that removed the requirement to belong to a sportsman's club, but unless you include the cost of a range the exercise is really pointless. Germany is not like the US, there is no federal or other land where you can just walk out into a field and start blasting away.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
If you go to European handgun competitions, especilly those sanctiioned by the German associations, you will be surprised about the number of Korth and Manurhin revolvers.

They are no safe queens but high performance guns.


Firearm ownership in Germany is extremely expensive, so I'm not surprised that Korth and Manurhin are well represented. By the time you add the cost of liscening, taxes and fees, and the mandutory sports club membership it costs something like $2,500 to own a G19.


Licensing fees depend on the state and municipality. In general it costs between €12.78 to €20 to have a firearm added to a license. A red collector's license costs about €200 to be issued. As a sportsshooter it costs about €70 to 250 for a membership in a gunclub per year. This includes use of the range. V.A.T. is 19%. Used guns are selling cheaper than in the U.S. because of those restrictions.

How in the world did you dream up $ 2,500 for a G19? Please do not spread your misinformation here.



It's not a dream, it's the nightmare that is Euro-socialist style gun control. Everything I'm going to quote I got off of US Army gun Owners in Germany.. I was stationed in Furth back in the mid 1980's when the exchange rate was close to 3 DM to the dollar, but it's only gotten worse since the Euro came along. I got the gun pricing from this gun store. You're lucky they're having a sale right now on Glocks. If you wanted a S&W revolver, an M&P auto, or any other exotic US made handgun the price almost doubles. All prices are in Euros.

Gen 4 Glock 19  695
Range                250
Insurance           100
Safe                   150
Red Card            200
-------------
Total                  1,395

You run that 1,395 Euro's through the universal translator and you get $1928.59 at today's rate of exchange. The numbers I used are for US military personnel who, AFAIK, don't have to pay what a German civilian has to pay for the 130 hour training course that's required for the issuance of a German gun license. The above total also assumes that the German national buys the cheapest safe, and very little ammunition. Once you add in the cost of everything the german civilian has to pay for, it can easily top the $2,500 I quoted.

I have no idea what the used gun market is like in Germany, but unless it's taking 50% off the cost of a new gun it isn't going to impact the overall cost a whole lot. If my numbers are wrong, or my information is wrong, let me know. I know there was a revision of the gun laws around 2003 that removed the requirement to belong to a sportsman's club, but unless you include the cost of a range the exercise is really pointless. Germany is not like the US, there is no federal or other land where you can just walk out into a field and start blasting away.


There is no mandatory 130 hour training class, there is a class that prepares for the "Sachkundeprüfung". It costs less than €100 and is usually one week end. There is no red card requirement, nor extra insurance for civilian gun owners in Germany. Insurance is usually included in the club membership. Club membership in a regular club is under €150, I am still a member in a gun club in the Hamburg area for €125. If someone has served in the German military, he can join the reserve (Reservistenvereinigung) for €30 per year and that is sufficient. It also invites their members to the reserve firearm training with free ammo.
That alone is worth the €30 after half a belt fired from the MG3.

Adding range fees to the purchase price is as wrong as adding the projected ammo cost for three years - or a lifetime. Prices for Glocks follow below.


Used G26 in Germany

New Glock in Germany

You can follow this old Python until the auction is over. Average going price for a Python is €500 to 600.

Python 1972 model

As for the exchange rate, the US$ has lost considerably since the introduction of the Euro, this is the current rate: 1 EUR = 1.38329 USD 1 USD = 0.722912 EUR
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:25:00 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andyd:
There is no mandatory 130 hour training class, there is a class that prepares for the "Sachkundeprüfung". It costs less than €100 and is usually one week end. There is no red card requirement, nor extra insurance for civilian gun owners in Germany. Insurance is usually included in the club membership. Club membership in a regular club is under €150, I am still a member in a gun club in the Hamburg area for €125. If someone has served in the German military, he can join the reserve (Reservistenvereinigung) for €30 per year and that is sufficient. It also invites their members to the reserve firearm training with free ammo.
That alone is worth the €30 after half a belt fired from the MG3.

Adding range fees to the purchase price is as wrong as adding the projected ammo cost for three years - or a lifetime. Prices for Glocks follow below.


Used G26 in Germany

New Glock in Germany

You can follow this old Python until the auction is over. Average going price for a Python is €500 to 600.

Python 1972 model

As for the exchange rate, the US$ has lost considerably since the introduction of the Euro, this is the current rate: 1 EUR = 1.38329 USD 1 USD = 0.722912 EUR
View Quote


Like I said, if my numbers are off I'm open to new information. When I used the $2,500 number I was talking about a German civilian with no ties to the military. I was also under the impression that being a member of a sportsman's club was still a requirement. I under valued the cost of the required safe at 150 euro so some of those cost are a wash. The prices of those used Glock pistols is on par if not more expensive then the average US pricing is. The Python is a steal, but an older Sig P210 is insanely expensive in the US, while In Switzerland it's just an old military gun. Bottom line is taking into account what it does cost to own a pistol in Germany it's still something like a $1,500 proposition just to be able to punch paper. There is no CCW, and there is no guarantee that the FRG is going to let you buy it in the first place.

To further my point here's some info from another board on the same issue.

Full disclosure: I left 19 years ago, and I didn't keep up with every little facet of regulation. But I think your numbers are off significantly.

First off, there is no right to own any guns in Germany. It is a privilege. You will have to prove to the authorities that you have a valid use or requirement for a gun. With very few exceptions, the only valid reasons are for hunting, and for sporting purposes. For hunting, you have to pass a "hunter's exam" (Jaegerpruefung) that requires significant study, participation in prep courses, etc. Not cheap at all. For sporting purposes, you need to show active participation in competitions. Typically, membership in a club is required for that, as shooting clubs are the only authorized venues to hold competitions. All competitions are regulated by (a number of different) associations, that in turn "license" their member clubs. It's expensive.

Just to repeat myself, there is no right to own firearms just for defensive purposes. Even if you are licensed because you're a certified "Jaeger", or are a club member shooting competitively, you are not allowed to use any of your guns for defensive purposes. Forget about concealed carry. Except for very few exceptions, you will not get a carry permit. All that Regular Joe can get is an ownership permit, allowing you to transport your guns to a competition, or use it for very regulated hunting activities.

Did you know that gun ownership implies your consent to unannounced checks by the authorities on how you store your weapons? There are regulations on how to securely store guns, and safes used for storage need to be certified according to documented criteria. Even more, authorities have a right to verify proper storage in your home, and verify the certification levels of your safe. Here's the kicker: they even make you pay for their unannounced visits that are supposed to check compliance. Every time they come, they make you pay for it. (There has just been a verdict in a civil suit in the Stuttgart court that the 210 Euros they charged a legal gun owner for each storage verification visit is excessive. I'll say! But the legality of the fee is not being discussed, just the amount.) I also seriously doubt that you will find a certified, compliant safe for gun storage 150 Euros, BTW.

Long story short, I'm sure you were spot on with your assessment on gun ownership costs for Germany. In fact, I'm sure you were way optimistic with your figure of $2500.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:43:44 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:


Like I said, if my numbers are off I'm open to new information. When I used the $2,500 number I was talking about a German civilian with no ties to the military. I was also under the impression that being a member of a sportsman's club was still a requirement. I under valued the cost of the required safe at 150 euro so some of those cost are a wash. The prices of those used Glock pistols is on par if not more expensive then the average US pricing is. The Python is a steal, but an older Sig P210 is insanely expensive in the US, while In Switzerland it's just an old military gun. Bottom line is taking into account what it does cost to own a pistol in Germany it's still something like a $1,500 proposition just to be able to punch paper. There is no CCW, and there is no guarantee that the FRG is going to let you buy it in the first place.

To further my point here's some info from another board on the same issue.

Full disclosure: I left 19 years ago, and I didn't keep up with every little facet of regulation. But I think your numbers are off significantly.

First off, there is no right to own any guns in Germany. It is a privilege. You will have to prove to the authorities that you have a valid use or requirement for a gun. With very few exceptions, the only valid reasons are for hunting, and for sporting purposes. For hunting, you have to pass a "hunter's exam" (Jaegerpruefung) that requires significant study, participation in prep courses, etc. Not cheap at all. For sporting purposes, you need to show active participation in competitions. Typically, membership in a club is required for that, as shooting clubs are the only authorized venues to hold competitions. All competitions are regulated by (a number of different) associations, that in turn "license" their member clubs. It's expensive.

Just to repeat myself, there is no right to own firearms just for defensive purposes. Even if you are licensed because you're a certified "Jaeger", or are a club member shooting competitively, you are not allowed to use any of your guns for defensive purposes. Forget about concealed carry. Except for very few exceptions, you will not get a carry permit. All that Regular Joe can get is an ownership permit, allowing you to transport your guns to a competition, or use it for very regulated hunting activities.

Did you know that gun ownership implies your consent to unannounced checks by the authorities on how you store your weapons? There are regulations on how to securely store guns, and safes used for storage need to be certified according to documented criteria. Even more, authorities have a right to verify proper storage in your home, and verify the certification levels of your safe. Here's the kicker: they even make you pay for their unannounced visits that are supposed to check compliance. Every time they come, they make you pay for it. (There has just been a verdict in a civil suit in the Stuttgart court that the 210 Euros they charged a legal gun owner for each storage verification visit is excessive. I'll say! But the legality of the fee is not being discussed, just the amount.) I also seriously doubt that you will find a certified, compliant safe for gun storage 150 Euros, BTW.

Long story short, I'm sure you were spot on with your assessment on gun ownership costs for Germany. In fact, I'm sure you were way optimistic with your figure of $2500.
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Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By Andyd:
There is no mandatory 130 hour training class, there is a class that prepares for the "Sachkundeprüfung". It costs less than €100 and is usually one week end. There is no red card requirement, nor extra insurance for civilian gun owners in Germany. Insurance is usually included in the club membership. Club membership in a regular club is under €150, I am still a member in a gun club in the Hamburg area for €125. If someone has served in the German military, he can join the reserve (Reservistenvereinigung) for €30 per year and that is sufficient. It also invites their members to the reserve firearm training with free ammo.
That alone is worth the €30 after half a belt fired from the MG3.

Adding range fees to the purchase price is as wrong as adding the projected ammo cost for three years - or a lifetime. Prices for Glocks follow below.


Used G26 in Germany

New Glock in Germany

You can follow this old Python until the auction is over. Average going price for a Python is €500 to 600.

Python 1972 model

As for the exchange rate, the US$ has lost considerably since the introduction of the Euro, this is the current rate: 1 EUR = 1.38329 USD 1 USD = 0.722912 EUR


Like I said, if my numbers are off I'm open to new information. When I used the $2,500 number I was talking about a German civilian with no ties to the military. I was also under the impression that being a member of a sportsman's club was still a requirement. I under valued the cost of the required safe at 150 euro so some of those cost are a wash. The prices of those used Glock pistols is on par if not more expensive then the average US pricing is. The Python is a steal, but an older Sig P210 is insanely expensive in the US, while In Switzerland it's just an old military gun. Bottom line is taking into account what it does cost to own a pistol in Germany it's still something like a $1,500 proposition just to be able to punch paper. There is no CCW, and there is no guarantee that the FRG is going to let you buy it in the first place.

To further my point here's some info from another board on the same issue.

Full disclosure: I left 19 years ago, and I didn't keep up with every little facet of regulation. But I think your numbers are off significantly.

First off, there is no right to own any guns in Germany. It is a privilege. You will have to prove to the authorities that you have a valid use or requirement for a gun. With very few exceptions, the only valid reasons are for hunting, and for sporting purposes. For hunting, you have to pass a "hunter's exam" (Jaegerpruefung) that requires significant study, participation in prep courses, etc. Not cheap at all. For sporting purposes, you need to show active participation in competitions. Typically, membership in a club is required for that, as shooting clubs are the only authorized venues to hold competitions. All competitions are regulated by (a number of different) associations, that in turn "license" their member clubs. It's expensive.

Just to repeat myself, there is no right to own firearms just for defensive purposes. Even if you are licensed because you're a certified "Jaeger", or are a club member shooting competitively, you are not allowed to use any of your guns for defensive purposes. Forget about concealed carry. Except for very few exceptions, you will not get a carry permit. All that Regular Joe can get is an ownership permit, allowing you to transport your guns to a competition, or use it for very regulated hunting activities.

Did you know that gun ownership implies your consent to unannounced checks by the authorities on how you store your weapons? There are regulations on how to securely store guns, and safes used for storage need to be certified according to documented criteria. Even more, authorities have a right to verify proper storage in your home, and verify the certification levels of your safe. Here's the kicker: they even make you pay for their unannounced visits that are supposed to check compliance. Every time they come, they make you pay for it. (There has just been a verdict in a civil suit in the Stuttgart court that the 210 Euros they charged a legal gun owner for each storage verification visit is excessive. I'll say! But the legality of the fee is not being discussed, just the amount.) I also seriously doubt that you will find a certified, compliant safe for gun storage 150 Euros, BTW.

Long story short, I'm sure you were spot on with your assessment on gun ownership costs for Germany. In fact, I'm sure you were way optimistic with your figure of $2500.


Mein Freund,

I know that country, its regulations and its language a little better than you.



A safe for handguns has to be the old B classification, they can be bought for €125.


http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4895973


You are wrong. Just wrong, whether you admit it, or not makes no difference. I am through with you.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:49:12 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andyd:
Mein Freund,

I know that country, its regulations and its language a little better than you.



A safe for handguns has to be the old B classification, they can be bought for €125.


http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4895973


You are wrong. Just wrong, whether you admit it, or not makes no difference. I am through with you.
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Auf wiedersehen.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:09:52 AM EDT




They sure know how to ugly up a Python with all those stamps and import marks -- no wonder its cheaper
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 9:15:16 AM EDT
I know for a fact that used Walther PPK, PPK/s and PP models in Germany are about half what we pay here.

In any case, back to the topic at hand...

I've seen exactly one Korth.

It's styling is debatable, but it sure was well made.

It's worth is what it is to the person buying it, nothing more or less, like any high end product.
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