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Posted: 8/20/2004 9:53:13 PM EST
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:54:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 9:56:09 PM EST by topjimmy]

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.



This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on this site.

[edit] You better get this book immediately.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936279001/qid=1093071505/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-0641955-2877453?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:58:05 PM EST
85% of people shot with handguns in this country survive, That said, the more fucked up your attacker is, the better your chance of survival is.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:00:36 PM EST
This is not a place to call someone new to the hobby an idiot, i'm 23 years old & just go into handguns, give me a break.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:02:45 PM EST
So i take it i might as well get a .45 auto/with hydroshocks with an 8-round clip, & a 9mm backup huh?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:07:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
This is not a place to call someone new to the hobby an idiot, i'm 23 years old & just go into handguns, give me a break.




Buy a 9mm, .40 or .45 and don't worry about the other guy. So long as you are legally justified in shooting him, you'll be fine. You have plenty of time after that to sort out morality.

Shoot at silhouette targets and try to get some role playing time in, This conditions you to shoot without hesitation. Make sure you practice shooting when and only when you would be justified in doing so, and you will do it without hesistation.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:21:53 PM EST
First off let me apologize for the rude individual earlier.

Handguns are NOT NOT NOT a NON-Lethal form of defense. Even small ones.

We, as CCW handgunners, are all faced with the possiblity of deploying lethal force in defense of our selves or our families one day, and that accepting the possiblity we may have to take a human life.

When you decide to arm yourself you MUST be willing to accept this.

If you wish a non-lethal form of defense consider chemical weapons like mace, or pepper spray, or perhaps a stun gun.

Even a small caliber like a p22 (and I do have one, very nice range fun guns) can and will kill a man.

A firearm should NEVER be used to "scare" someone away.

If you are justified in shootings someone to defend yourself or your family, you are justified in killing them. If you are in a situation that you feel you would not be justified in killing that person you are not justified SHOOTING at that person.

Never ever ever deploy a firearm against an attacker going into the conflict with Non-Lethal intentions.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:47:22 PM EST
I would very highly suggest that in such situations you just drive the hell off if possible, even if it damages your vehicle further. I also reccomend a large can of pepper spray. Failing that and you've tried your hardest to leave/end the problem AND you feel your / someone else's life is in IMMEDIATE jeapardy then by all means shoot the bastard. Use a .45 or .357, 9mm, 40, whatever is available. If you feel you can just poke holes in someone with a .22 and be fine you've got to learn a bit before you start packing. You are just as likely to cause fatal injury with a .22 as a .44 magnum. A .22 is less likely to be a good stopper and end the fight but is just as likely to result in the person dying from his wounds.....eventually. If you just plan to shoot the first guy that flicks you shit or threatens to kick your ass you'll wind up bubba's girlfriend in the state pen. Always use any less than lethal options before resorting to shooting someone if you can.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:50:59 PM EST
I found this post a little shocking.

In a given situation it is either appropriate to present the gun and pull the trigger, or it's not. You're basically saying you're more likely to shoot someone if you have a .22 instead of a 45, .40, or 9mm.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's crazy logic!

If you're going to pull a gun, the situation better warrant it. That means your life better be in real danger. If that is the case, then you're going to want the biggest scarriest caliber possible.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 7:40:10 AM EST
The bigger and scarier the weapon the less likely you are to actually have to fire it. That beig said you will have to be an extreemly accurate with a .22 for it to be effective.
They way most laws are written today you must shoot to stop a situation. That being said, in today's world you are better off killing the attacker. After the event you will be in a world of shit because of legal problems. If you don't kill the attacker it is very likely that he or she will sue you. If you do kill them it is likely that the family will sue you. Not to mention your legal troubles for acctually using the weapon.
If you shoot to only scare your attacker chances are it won't work and it might make things worse.
Make yourself more comfortable with a more effecctive weapon.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 8:03:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 8:03:52 AM EST by THellURider]
If you're willing to carry a gun for defense then you need to already have accepted the fact that you will kill someone, so get a gun that will do it for christs sake. Your life or your loved one's might depend on it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 8:05:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.



Holy shit.

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:07:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By THellURider:
If you're willing to carry a gun for defense then you need to already have accepted the fact that you will kill someone, so get a gun that will do it for christs sake. Your life or your loved one's might depend on it.



What he said.

If you want to scare them away, try yelling BOO! If you are scared that you'll kill someone, get some pepper spray and hope that does the job. Personally, if a situation gets to the point where I draw my gun, then I'm more than prepared to kill someone if they continue to make it necessary. I don't want to, and if they get scared and run off, so much the better, but if I have to shoot them, I want to put them out of the fight as quickly as possible.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:17:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:10:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:15:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 5:14:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:05:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 5:06:20 AM EST by Emoto]
To address part of the question, I have 2 friends at my club with the P22s. They both jam all the time. Seriously. Seems to be very fussy about what ammo it likes. High velocity stuff may work the best, but if you are considering it for self-defense, you need something that is 100% dependable, and frankly, although it is a neat little gun, I don't think it is reliable enough for your intended purpose. Consider a revolver.

I don't have any pointers handy, but would urge you to read up and study about the use of "deadly force" (which is what ANY gun is) and the conditions under which it may be deployed. It is a lot trickier than you might think. Carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility, and you need to be in full understanding of the legal issues as well as in command of your ego and emotions before you consider it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:18:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:37:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.



Holy shit.




No shit!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:59:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 6:45:21 AM EST by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:32:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 6:36:14 AM EST by Strudle54]
IMHO - I look at a .45 acp as a Tiger swat, while a .22 lr is more in line w/ a Puma swat - they can both kill yah but the tiger is far more devistating.

If my life is on the line, I want the Tiger in my corner.

What you need to understand is that your life is on the line, being "nice" is out the window, you MUST defend your self w/ as much fire power as you can bring to bear. F*ck the bad guy, he is out to kill you so you need to do the same to him , but faster. There is a good chance a .22 will not provide the fire power needed to end the assault, in your favor and I'm not willing to take that chance.

Bottom line, if you are not willing to defend your life, by killing the bad guy, then you may not want to carry a weapon. (Hesitation may very well cost you your life)

With that said, a .22 beats throwing rocks if a .22 was ALL I had, I'd sure as shit use it but one may find themself on the losing end of the confrontation - you don't want that


ETA - The-beer-slayer's comments are right on traget!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:57:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
DONT carry a gun.

Your current state of mind makes it more of a danger to YOU

exactly what i was thinking.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:12:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:45:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
BEFORE you consider carrying a firearm you need to make sure you are mentally able to use it. No second guessing and no hesitation. If you are scared to pull the trigger there is no point in you having a firearm. Hesitation will get you killed. I have met many folks that could not shoot another person for any reason. i don't fault them. I try to help them find another solution.

I have a walther p22 and really like it. Howevere there is ZERO chance i would use it for Self defens. I had to use a 22lr rifle to put down a dog last year. it took four shots at point blank to the head to kill it. <hit by a car only gun i had>

Unless you get a VERY good shot that .22 will NOT stop an attacker. hurt yes stop no.

.22lr ammo is notoriously flakey and sensitive. I have seen VERY little that cycled 100% of the time and went bang 100% of the time. Reliability is not there.

If you are not ready to carry a firearm get some pepperspray. Avoid confrontational areas and LEARN situational awareness techniques.

This is not a stupid question and should not be treated as such. I had this same issue with my mother a few years ago when she was considering carrying. It took her a year or so before she finally told me she could without a doubt pull a trigger and kill someone. At that point we went shopping and got her some training.



Not to go off topic but Im curious. What did you get her?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:02:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 9:03:11 AM EST by TheSaint2004]
If you want a good car defence gun get this!! I wish I could justify the cost. You don't have to aim www.impactguns.com/store/serbu_super_shorty12.html

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:06:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
So i take it i might as well get a .45 auto/with hydroshocks with an 8-round clip, & a 9mm backup huh?




What's your object? To protect yourself and stop an attack? If so, the answer to the above is YES.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:25:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:26:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:35:23 AM EST
My car gun is a short barreled 870 with Knoxx folder and loaded with 4 rounds of Winchester #1 buck. It is the most powerful weapon I can fit in and deploy from the cabin of my car.

Usually, I also have some sort of semi automatic centerfire carbine/rifle in the trunk.

That being said the least gun I carry for defensive purposes is a Kel-Tec P-32 and that is only to back up the 9mm or two I am also carrying.

.22LR is a poor choice for stopping attackers. If I was forced to use a .22, I would aim for the face and empty the magazine.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:01:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
DONT carry a gun.

Your current state of mind makes it more of a danger to YOU



WORD
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:09:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 11:33:53 AM EST
i'm buying more kevlar....
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 1:33:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
This is not a place to call someone new to the hobby an idiot, i'm 23 years old & just go into handguns, give me a break.



Defending your life is not a hobby.

Shooting guns can be a hobby.

For the hobby: P22 is great.
For your saving life: not so great. Find something else ->preferably 9mm +

Folks are giving you a tough time because the care. Think Tough Love.

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:35:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Emoto:
To address part of the question, I have 2 friends at my club with the P22s. They both jam all the time. Seriously. Seems to be very fussy about what ammo it likes. High velocity stuff may work the best, but if you are considering it for self-defense, you need something that is 100% dependable, and frankly, although it is a neat little gun, I don't think it is reliable enough for your intended purpose. Consider a revolver.

I don't have any pointers handy, but would urge you to read up and study about the use of "deadly force" (which is what ANY gun is) and the conditions under which it may be deployed. It is a lot trickier than you might think. Carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility, and you need to be in full understanding of the legal issues as well as in command of your ego and emotions before you consider it.



I had the same problem with my P22 for the first 2000 rounds. The ammo it likes best is Minimags, and seems to run nearly 100% with them. After the break in period it works really well with Winchester Wildcat high velosity, and they are a lot cheaper than the CCI Minimags.

Mine has really smoothed out now... and will run with cheap stuff too. It just takes a while.

But youre right... its not a defensive pistol... just a really neat range gun.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:26:38 PM EST
If you're in a life-or-death situation that justifies the legal application of lethal force, revoke that motherf**ker's breathing privileges with extreme prejudice.

If you cannot handle this responsibility, you don't need a pistol and extra magazine. You need a leather gimp mask and a butt-plug.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:24:09 AM EST
It helps if don't think of your attacker as a human being. Because most of them aren't.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:29:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 8:30:33 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.



Weather he dies or not is IRRELEVANT

In order to have cause to shoot, you must have cause to KILL.

.380ACP or higher, allways shoot to kill (but never say so when questioned).

If you can't justify killing your attacker(s), don't shoot them...
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:41:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.




OMFG!!!!!

PLEASE take the NRA Personal Protection in the Home: (8 hours.) www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp before you end up in jail!!!!!!

If you need to ask WHY I said jail, you need to take the course.


-LS
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:42:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
DONT carry a gun.

Your current state of mind makes it more of a danger to YOU




Wise advice in this case.

-LS
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:10:08 PM EST
i'm a "youngster", but i grew up in a undesireable nighborhood where I knew lots of locals who have been killed on the streets....get a full size cartrige ( ie .45 ACP or .357, etc)

you should be more concerned with your life, not some lowlife willing to harm you
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:32:04 PM EST
Caliber and self defense techniqes aside, the P22 is one of the most unreliable pistols I've ever come in contact with, period.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:48:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:18:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 9:30:24 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By xm15_es2:
I'm looking for a compact weapon to keep in my car when i go on long trips, just incase i break down, or pull over at a gas station late at night with some undesirables around (I'll have my CHP of course).

Will a walther P22 provide sufficient firepower to scare away an intruder & injure him enough to end the altercation?

My dilema is, i love big guns, i have an AR15, a 9 etc. But the thought of popping someone with a 9 or a 45 sends chills up my spine & who knows i might hesitate. But with a .22 there would be no hesitation because i know the chances of that man dying have just dropped in half.

That being said, anyone have one for sale in VA? Let me know.



Several problems here.

Firstly a .22 is NOT acceptable as a primary weapon for anything bigger than squirrels.

Secondly compact .22 semi-auto handguns are not known for being terribly reliable.

Thirdly, almost all .22 semi-auto handguns are real picky about what they will feed.

Can a .22 stop someone? Sure. Will it do so reliably? The track record of the round up until now doesn't indicate that it will.

You would be much better off with a good S&W .357 revolver.

I have news for you: A .22 will kill a man just as dead as a .308 will. When you pull the trigger you are using lethal force, and a person may die as a result of it.

The idea behind self defense is that it is a him or me situation where he has forced the issue. Thus in order to survive I need to stop him and do it right now, before he can follow through on the intent he has manifested to kill me. My weapon needs to work, and it needs to stop him. The P22 is a plinker and is not meant for this situation.

If you can't wrap your full being around that little bit of thinking, then you are better off not carrying a gun at all. Because if you pull a gun on somebody, it does not make the bad guy go away. Certainly most criminals would rather run than fight with an armed man, but those 1 percenters out there just don't care.

When you pull a gun on someone you had darned well better be prepared to pull the trigger. If you aren't then you will just end up being shot with your own weapon.

So my advice is to not carry anything at all until you develop resolve enough to survive.

It is not my intent to sound rude or dismissive. But there is something you need to realize:

Combat with another human being is messy, ugly, and life altering. Like it or not, there are bad people out there who would just as soon kill you as look at you. They will kill you and rape your loved ones and not feel the slightest bit of guilt. They just don't care. No plea will move them. No compassion or humanity dwells within them. No sentiment touches them.

They are not human because they do not subscribe to anything resembling human morality. They are very intelligent beasts who view every other person in the world like wolves view sheep. When they see you they think you are food.

You need to be aware that when you encounter someone like that, you either shoot them or die. Not all criminals are this way, but many more than you would like to think are. So you had better be prepared to face them.

And your equipment had better be up to the task.

Carry a real gun, .38 SPL + AND CARRY A BACKUP TOO.

A gunfight is a FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE, and if you don't go in prepared to survive you won't. If that sounds harsh and hurts your feelings, it is not my intent.

But with all due respect, deal with it.

There are people out there who will do a hell of a lot more than hurt your feelings, and you had better be prepared to deal with it. If you are not, then put the guns away and stay asleep. You will just put yourself in greater danger.

A gun does not make you "feel secure." Carrying one does not make me feel safer. It is a huge bother to pack heat everywhere, especially concealed, and to constantly be aware of my surroundings and the proximity of others.

But the alternative is having nothing more than fingernails against a person like I mentioned, and that is unacceptable to me.

The most valuable commodity you can own is a warrior mindset. Until you develop that, the best weapon in the world is useless to you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:54:09 PM EST
The primary goal in such scenarios is to stop someone or something for doing grevious bodily harm and/or killing you and/or your loved one. Their death is just a secondary side effect of you achieving that goal.

A .22 will generally not stop them from attacking you. A .22 is not big enough to pose a serious threat to stop them from starting an attack. If you are not sure that you are mentally prepared to pull the trigger, then they will take the gun away from you.

Case in point, the BG that broke in my apartment in 1998 thought that he could rush me and take my .45 away from me. He was quite surprised when he came around the coffee table at me. The only thing that kept him alive was that the 230FMJ hit the door jamb when I gave him the 7 mil lead. The first patrol car arrived 30 minutes after I called. This was 2 blocks off of Preston and Arapaho in Dallas. I talked with the police LT that came to the 911 call and he said that the BGs in that area thought that the older white residents were too scared of the legal consequences of pulling the trigger and would try to rush people to be able to take the handgun. That way they would have a pistol also as a result of their burglary. So, merely having a 'Billy Bad Buns' pistol is not enough. You have to have the wherewithall to pull the trigger or the cops are going to arrive an half hour later to fill out the paperwork on yet another murder. Been there, done that, lived to tell you about it.

Get a big enough gun to stop the BG and be ready to pull the trigger to do so. Hesitancy can be fatal to you.

wganz

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:58:53 PM EST
Two very excellent posts!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:02:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Two very excellent posts!



+1
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:27:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:00:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:
The primary goal in such scenarios is to stop someone or something for doing grevious bodily harm and/or killing you and/or your loved one. Their death is just a secondary side effect of you achieving that goal.

A .22 will generally not stop them from attacking you. A .22 is not big enough to pose a serious threat to stop them from starting an attack. If you are not sure that you are mentally prepared to pull the trigger, then they will take the gun away from you.

Case in point, the BG that broke in my apartment in 1998 thought that he could rush me and take my .45 away from me. He was quite surprised when he came around the coffee table at me. The only thing that kept him alive was that the 230FMJ hit the door jamb when I gave him the 7 mil lead. The first patrol car arrived 30 minutes after I called. This was 2 blocks off of Preston and Arapaho in Dallas. I talked with the police LT that came to the 911 call and he said that the BGs in that area thought that the older white residents were too scared of the legal consequences of pulling the trigger and would try to rush people to be able to take the handgun. That way they would have a pistol also as a result of their burglary. So, merely having a 'Billy Bad Buns' pistol is not enough. You have to have the wherewithall to pull the trigger or the cops are going to arrive an half hour later to fill out the paperwork on yet another murder. Been there, done that, lived to tell you about it.

Get a big enough gun to stop the BG and be ready to pull the trigger to do so. Hesitancy can be fatal to you.

wganz




You show more restraint than I would have.

WG is completely right. Without the resolve to use a weapon, you are better off not having one.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:48:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 4:49:32 AM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Weather he dies or not is IRRELEVANT




I would disagree with this, although I see your point.
My point is dead men don't bring civil suits against you.
If the situation is grave enough to shoot, it is grave enough to kill. Of course the legal term is shoot to "stop" the attacker.

Judge (at grand jury hearing): So did you shoot to kill this attacker?
Defendant: No, your honor, I shot to STOP the attacker.
Judge: Why did you shoot him 15 times?
Defendant: Your Honor, because I only had one magazine.
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