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Posted: 10/4/2005 2:14:30 AM EDT
I've had good luck with WWB 115 Grain Hollow Points in my XD-9 Service. Never a glitch, fairly accurate, too. And, according to the ballistic data, the deliver close to 400 lbs. muzzle energy, which is higher than other non +p loads of pretty much any weight.

Would these be okay rounds if I had to use them for Personal Defense? Like I said, I've fired about 5 or 6 hundred rounds of these things with nary a problem. For that matter, I've fired about 2500 rounds of various manufacturers/loads with not one problem out of my XD. I happen to have a pretty large stockpile of WWB ammo now, too.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:54:23 PM EDT
don't cheap out on defensive loads. most 115 gr rounds do not meet minimum penetrayion requirements. My recommendation is that you go and buy a couple hundred rounds of 147gr rangers or gold dots, function test them in your gun and carry that. There is barely a difference in recoil and POI deviations is negligable at reasonable distances.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:06:36 PM EDT
I thought the higher energy would be better, but you're saying it's the weight that counts. I'm confused about ballistics I guess.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:10:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 4:20:55 PM EDT by VBC]
There is some heated debate over which is better. Some will say use nothing less than 147 gr and some will say fast 124 gr. or even 115 gr. Most all will say Gold Dots (either the 147 or 124 +P).

The faster (lighter) bullets expand much earlier when they enter a target because they're going faster. This makes sort of a parachute effect making it slow down quickly within the body transferring all the energy into the body within a short depth.

The heavier rounds expand more slowly as they move through the body since they're moving slower. This paired with the heavier weight allows it to go further into the body since it doesn't parachute (mushroom) as quickly.

I have found the WWB 115 gr JHP to be an accurate round and you can buy plenty of to practice with. It's got a classic deep hollow point loaded on the hot side. I would say you could do a lot worse.
Okay for defensive use, most likely. The best out there, probably not.

Just my opinions.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:51:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
I've had good luck with WWB 115 Grain Hollow Points in my XD-9 Service. Never a glitch, fairly accurate, too. And, according to the ballistic data, the deliver close to 400 lbs. muzzle energy, which is higher than other non +p loads of pretty much any weight.

Would these be okay rounds if I had to use them for Personal Defense? Like I said, I've fired about 5 or 6 hundred rounds of these things with nary a problem. For that matter, I've fired about 2500 rounds of various manufacturers/loads with not one problem out of my XD. I happen to have a pretty large stockpile of WWB ammo now, too.



Feeding and functional reliability are more important than small differences in terminal performance. Unless you are prepared to test a new load with a few hundred rounds to assure feeding and functional reliability, I recommend sticking with what you have already shown feeds and functions well in your gun.

Having said this, the WWB 115 grain JHP loads in 9mm are somewhat a suboptimal choice for many applications and risk assessments, so you might do well in the longer term to make a plan for wringing out a better load for carry purposes. It's hard to give specific recommendations without knowing your applications and risk assessments.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:49:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:
The faster (lighter) bullets expand much earlier when they enter a target because they're going faster. This makes sort of a parachute effect making it slow down quickly within the body transferring all the energy into the body within a short depth.

The heavier rounds expand more slowly as they move through the body since they're moving slower. This paired with the heavier weight allows it to go further into the body since it doesn't parachute (mushroom) as quickly.





Thank you for putting this so clearly! Okay, then, how about this? Which (lighter, faster or slower, heavier) bullets are safer with regards to stray rounds escaping though walls, etc? I live in a somewhat populated suburban environment.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:10:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:

Originally Posted By VBC:
The faster (lighter) bullets expand much earlier when they enter a target because they're going faster. This makes sort of a parachute effect making it slow down quickly within the body transferring all the energy into the body within a short depth.

The heavier rounds expand more slowly as they move through the body since they're moving slower. This paired with the heavier weight allows it to go further into the body since it doesn't parachute (mushroom) as quickly.





Thank you for putting this so clearly! Okay, then, how about this? Which (lighter, faster or slower, heavier) bullets are safer with regards to stray rounds escaping though walls, etc? I live in a somewhat populated suburban environment.





Generally speaking the heavier will penatrate walls and people more (but not by much). This weekend I shot some 147gr remington golden saber and 124gr +p gold dot into water jugs. I recovered the gold dot in the 3rd jug and the 147gr in the 5th. Both performed as advertised. The faster lighter rounds like 115gr FMJ penatrate hard targets better. My 115gr WWB would go through this water culvert while the 147gr would not....didnt test the 124gr +p. If you are in a populated area use the lighter JHP ammo.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 3:10:05 PM EDT
Actually 147's will go through hard barriers better. You can't compare JHP and FMJ. obviously the 115gr FMJ will penetrate a hard barrier better by virtue of being FMJ.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:13:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
You can't compare JHP and FMJ.



Why not? Its velocity that causes penetration. Actually the heavier bullet doesnt ALWAYS penetrate better. Look at .45 and .9mm ....the 9mm penetrates barriers better. Using 230gr and 115 gr FMJ respectively

Also , I didnt test the 124gr. golddots on the culvert but im 90% sure they would have penetrated. I agree with you clubsoda that 147gr penetrate soft barriers better then the light, but I disagree with you on hard targets. The heavier just dont have the velocity. My 147 didnt penatrate as far as the 124 against bowling pins.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:11:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
You can't compare JHP and FMJ.



Why not? Its velocity that causes penetration. Actually the heavier bullet doesnt ALWAYS penetrate better. Look at .45 and .9mm ....the 9mm penetrates barriers better. Using 230gr and 115 gr FMJ respectively

Also , I didnt test the 124gr. golddots on the culvert but im 90% sure they would have penetrated. I agree with you clubsoda that 147gr penetrate soft barriers better then the light, but I disagree with you on hard targets. The heavier just dont have the velocity. My 147 didnt penatrate as far as the 124 against bowling pins.

why not? That's an easy one, as was said earlier on in this thread the lighter JHP open faster than the heavier ones therefore slows down faster. Whereas you said the lighter FMJ penetrated farther because of the higher velocity. Granted, it is going faster until it hits something, but it slows down faster upon impact (JHP, that is)
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:27:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
You can't compare JHP and FMJ.



Why not? Its velocity that causes penetration. Actually the heavier bullet doesnt ALWAYS penetrate better. Look at .45 and .9mm ....the 9mm penetrates barriers better. Using 230gr and 115 gr FMJ respectively

Also , I didnt test the 124gr. golddots on the culvert but im 90% sure they would have penetrated. I agree with you clubsoda that 147gr penetrate soft barriers better then the light, but I disagree with you on hard targets. The heavier just dont have the velocity. My 147 didnt penatrate as far as the 124 against bowling pins.

why not? That's an easy one, as was said earlier on in this thread the lighter JHP open faster than the heavier ones therefore slows down faster. Whereas you said the lighter FMJ penetrated farther because of the higher velocity. Granted, it is going faster until it hits something, but it slows down faster upon impact (JHP, that is)




we are talking about hard targets.......the JHP doent factor in here. Also, what is expected to happen doesnt always happen....while what you say makes sense and I agree with you, it doesnt always happen this way as I explained when I was ACTUALLY shooting 147gr, 124gr and 115gr. The lighter (124gr) penetrated more than 147gr
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 3:22:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:


we are talking about hard targets.......the JHP doent factor in here. Also, what is expected to happen doesnt always happen....while what you say makes sense and I agree with you, it doesnt always happen this way as I explained when I was ACTUALLY shooting 147gr, 124gr and 115gr. The lighter (124gr) penetrated more than 147gr

ok, I didn't notice where you said hard targets. I was thinking along the lines of drywall, where the JHP will slow a lot faster than the FMJ
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
You can't compare JHP and FMJ.



Why not? Its velocity that causes penetration. Actually the heavier bullet doesnt ALWAYS penetrate better. Look at .45 and .9mm ....the 9mm penetrates barriers better. Using 230gr and 115 gr FMJ respectively



45's have more surface area. If the round flattens out, it will not penetrate as far. JHP's tend to deform more than FMJ on contact with hard targets. In my experiance with vehicles, the 147's penetrated better.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 11:21:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2005 11:21:45 AM EDT by skypirate7]
I shoot WWB FMJ and Remington UMC Hollowpoints. Both have functioned 100% in my gun so far. I wouldn't mind using either for carry ammo.

When it comes to picking a defensive round, I think people should use what they can afford to practice with. I've shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds of WWB. I can't afford to do the same with Gold-dots or Hydra-Shoks so I can't prove their reliability in my gun.

With that said, I think a lot of people over-emphasize the difference a fraction of an inch of expansion will make. If you shoot a guy in the arm, chances are it won't make a difference when it comes to stopping the attacker. If you shoot a guy a fraction of an inch away from his heart, then yeah, that extra bit of expansion might be enough to kill him.

But it's not like the guy you shoot with Super-Dooper-Expandorizers is going to fly across the room, and with his last dying breath, say, "Damn you Super-Dooper-Expandorizers... Your premium expansion abilities were the only thing that could have killed me..."

Whatever you shoot, just practice.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 9:01:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
You can't compare JHP and FMJ.



Why not? Its velocity that causes penetration. Actually the heavier bullet doesnt ALWAYS penetrate better. Look at .45 and .9mm ....the 9mm penetrates barriers better. Using 230gr and 115 gr FMJ respectively



45's have more surface area. If the round flattens out, it will not penetrate as far. JHP's tend to deform more than FMJ on contact with hard targets. In my experiance with vehicles, the 147's penetrated better.



I cant argue with what you experience, the same as you argue with what I expierence. As far as Im concerned we are both right as to what we actually saw. Were you shooting at windows or was this the sheet metal of the body? I am just curious as to how far the 147 and the lighter load penatrated. What load were you shooting?
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