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Posted: 12/2/2013 8:26:55 PM EDT
I've often wondered how shooting with out ear pro would affect me.  Obviously a SD shooting would lack our usual range accouterments so why not train without it?

Just for grins I took off my ears and dropped the hammer on my 1911 (last range trip). Holy shit it was loud.  Stunned me for a second.

Any thoughts?
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 8:31:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 8:34:37 PM EDT
I think it's a great way to do permanent damage to your hearing.  I don't see a benefit in harming a critical survival sense in the very rare chance you'll have to shoot defensively without earpro.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 8:37:38 PM EDT
In a real life situation you probably won't even hear the shots anyway.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 8:56:45 PM EDT
Just think of it this way, if you practice without hearing protection long enough you really won't have to worry about the sound when it's fo time.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 10:49:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.
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+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 1:44:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LTCetme:
I've often wondered how shooting with out ear pro would affect me.  Obviously a SD shooting would lack our usual range accouterments so why not train without it?

Just for grins I took off my ears and dropped the hammer on my 1911 (last range trip). Holy shit it was loud.  Stunned me for a second.

Any thoughts?
View Quote



Why bother wearing eyes and ears either? safety and hearing is for fags.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 3:09:17 AM EDT
Years ago, in the Marines you were not allowed to wear hearing protection on live fire and maneuver ranges.   The thought process was you had to hear all commands from your leadership, the range safety types and you had to get us to the sound and concussion you would experience in combat

We stopped the practice years ago with the fielding of combat arms ear plugs and more awareness of hearing conservation

I have to say though, there are some people like my self who never got ringing ears even as a SAW of 240 gunner while all my TBS classmates complained about it for days after each field exercises
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 3:24:57 AM EDT
I've been shooting USPSA/IPSC for over 30 years... most of the time also an active range officer... I have significant hearing loss in the 4000Hz range... even with custom ear plugs... and double muffs for the dreaded 9x25s....
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 4:32:05 AM EDT
It's loud, it is highly unlikely to affect you immediately in the event you are involved in an actual shooting, your focus will be elsewhere. Even while hunting without any immediate danger to life most people's senses are so engaged that recoil and blast are barely noticed if at all. Conserve your hearing, losing it sucks, and then there's that damned ringing.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 4:48:44 AM EDT
Don't do it because it serves no purpose and you'll screw up your hearing permanently in very short order.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:01:04 AM EDT
WHAT DID YOU SAY?


Seriously, training is training, no need to lose your hearing over training.

I can honestly say I have never really heard [I do normally wear hearing protection when I hunt with my .454 Casull, they are the active plug type, but on several occasions with a shotgun I didn't] the shot when taking one. All I have really heard was a muffled thump which is entirely different then when sighting in.

Protect your ears as much as you can, after all, you DO want to hear the "bad guy" when he breaks into your house, right?
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:11:49 AM EDT
My ears are bad enough too, shootin' guns, going to concerts, and loud guitar amps. Not worth it. If there's any background noise, I can hear people speak, just can't make out what they are saying.

The first time I ever shot a .357 was with no plugs or muffs, it was pretty bad. And it was only 1 round. I never did that again.

Once in a long while, I'll shoot a few .22 rounds without plugs, but I very rarely even do that. (not recommended)
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:13:41 AM EDT
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:14:50 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.
View Quote


No..........
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:23:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RobRat:


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.
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Originally Posted By RobRat:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.


Damn it.  Now I'm sitting here hearing the ring.  I forget about it because it's always there....
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:25:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.
View Quote


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:27:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:29:40 AM EDT


From experience,  In real life I did hear the shots but they weren't loud (to me).  

A guy shot at us so four of us returned fire.  I heard every shot but it didn't effect my hearing at that time.  

I've shot without hearing protection at the range and it's real loud.  My ears rang for hours.  

Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:34:00 AM EDT
probably not a good idea
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:37:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.
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This...don't be a deaf dumbass.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:38:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Colt_SBR:


From experience,  In real life I did hear the shots but they weren't loud (to me).  

A guy shot at us so four of us returned fire.  I heard every shot but it didn't effect my hearing at that time.  

I've shot without hearing protection at the range and it's real loud.  My ears rang for hours.  

View Quote


I accidentally touched off one single round [and not a top end load at that, just a 260 grain XTP] from my .454 without hearing protection [I usually double up] and it was physically painful. That is, it hurt like hell. It is a very easy way to bring on a screaming case of the "flinchies."
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:43:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RobRat:


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.
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Originally Posted By RobRat:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.

Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:44:50 AM EDT
Way back in the day the .45 ACP was preferred by tunnel rats due to lower muzzle flash and less offensive muzzle blast.   But it was still very loud and well over the threshold required for damage to your hearing.

With that in mind consider that the average 9mm is even louder and an AR-15 is significantly loader than that, especially in 16" carbine form.    The moderator used on the XM177 series was intended to reduce the noise level to that comparable to the M16A1.    

It's something worth considering next time you hear someone talk about what a great choice the AR-15 is for home defense, when it's really about the last thing you want to be firing in an enclosed space without hearing protection.  It's not a deal breaker maybe, but it certainly a valid factor to consider when it's you, your wife and children that will be exposed.

In some cases hearing loss can be minimized after an exposure to gun fire without hearing protection.  Your local doctor will prescribe steroids of a couple weeks and have you wear ear plugs to prevent any addition noise trauma during the healing process, but there are no guarantees.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 8:12:13 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By vengarr:



Why bother wearing eyes and ears either? safety and hearing is for fags.
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Originally Posted By vengarr:
Originally Posted By LTCetme:
I've often wondered how shooting with out ear pro would affect me.  Obviously a SD shooting would lack our usual range accouterments so why not train without it?

Just for grins I took off my ears and dropped the hammer on my 1911 (last range trip). Holy shit it was loud.  Stunned me for a second.

Any thoughts?



Why bother wearing eyes and ears either? safety and hearing is for fags.

Amen!
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:13:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 1:46:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
With that in mind consider that the average 9mm is even louder and an AR-15 is significantly loader than that, especially in 16" carbine form.    The moderator used on the XM177 series was intended to reduce the noise level to that comparable to the M16A1.  
View Quote


The sound reduction of the compensator was 2-3 dBs. That was almost certainly nothing more than a side effect of the true function of the device: provide increased back pressure to reliably cycle the carbine.

Back on topic: All it takes is one incidence of a suitably loud noise to destroy your hearing, and, once it's gone, it ain't coming back. Why risk it when hearing loss is completely preventable at the range?
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 2:27:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.
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Worth saying again.  I've done a lot of shooting without ear pro, and at 33 I'm already paying for it.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 2:50:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 5:48:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lew:


The sound reduction of the compensator was 2-3 dBs. That was almost certainly nothing more than a side effect of the true function of the device: provide increased back pressure to reliably cycle the carbine.
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Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
With that in mind consider that the average 9mm is even louder and an AR-15 is significantly loader than that, especially in 16" carbine form.    The moderator used on the XM177 series was intended to reduce the noise level to that comparable to the M16A1.  


The sound reduction of the compensator was 2-3 dBs. That was almost certainly nothing more than a side effect of the true function of the device: provide increased back pressure to reliably cycle the carbine.
I suspect you are a little fuzzy on what decibel differences actually mean.

First, the moderator on the XM177 reduced the noise by 4.7 dBs (when new), which got the total  sound intensity in the same ball park as the M16A1.  That made it a lot less deafening in a firefight, which was the point.

And when I say a LOT less that's exactly what I mean.   4.7 dB does not sound like much of a difference, but decibels are a logarithmic unit so, without getting into the math, a 4.7 dB increase equates to a sound intensity level that is about 3 times greater for the 11.5" XM177 without the moderator compared to one with the moderator.  Believe me, the moderator was there to moderate the sound of the short barreled XM177.  If you want to talk reliability enhancement in the XM177, you'd be better off restricting it to the move from the 10" barrel to the 11.5" barrel and the resulting port pressures.

Even if the reduction of the moderator was only 3 dBs when it was well used, dirty, etc, that still represents a reduction of the total sound intensity level by half, which is nothing to sneeze at.

This chart might help you visualize why small differences in decibels mean a lot.  



------

That understanding of decibels is worth applying to the chart posted on the previous page, as absent an understanding of decibels, the "small" increases don't make the point of how much louder the "too loud" weapons really are as the decibel levels increase.

In this case again, a 3 dB increase from the 9mm to the AR-15 means the sound intensity is not just a 1.8% linear increase, but rather it means the AR-15 is actually twice as loud as the 9mm Glock 17.   Which one do you want to shoot in an enclosed room in your house in the middle of the night with no hearing protection?

Link Posted: 12/4/2013 5:23:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RobRat:


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.
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Originally Posted By RobRat:
Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.


+1  as I sit here hearing "riiiiinnnng" every waking moment.


Same here, from one shot out of a .357 revolver 10 years ago. Don't mess around with your hearing, it never comes back.
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 6:52:53 AM EDT
I don't want to hurt my hearing while defending my life, so I'm going to choose a subpar weapon.

We should all use .22 rifles for SD, apparently.

Link Posted: 12/4/2013 7:12:06 AM EDT
I can't believe a Red Rider is 97db!!  That's crazy.


I would never train without ear pro.  It's just not comfortable and obviously bad for you.

That being said, I NEVER wear ear pro when I hunt.  Usually I only take 1 shot all day though :-)
There have been a few instances where I hit a deer with .30-06 then finish with my 9mm but just 2 shots is nothing compared to a day at the range.
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 9:12:06 AM EDT
1 shot is all it can take to permanently screw your hearing.  (as well as balance).  Would you rather train without ear pro and go permanently deaf, and not hear the glass breaking in your bedroom window as the perp comes into your house, or wear ear pro and hear them coming up the driveway?
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 10:51:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LTCetme:


Any thoughts?
View Quote


Oh I have thoughts, but I'd get a time out. You have one set of fucking ear drums. Save them.
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 10:56:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.
View Quote

Auditory exclusion is the term
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 12:37:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2013 12:39:20 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
You can't buy new hearing, take good care of what you have.
View Quote



you train cause you want to be safer. Safety's goal is to: allow you to live longer and to live a higher quality of life.

Going deaf defeats the 2nd part of that. Chronic exposure to lound shit will do that

training however, like life, is a balance between effectiveness (realism I guess for training) and safety (ie: going home so you can continune to life live...for the better)

wear your ear/eye pro. at the end of the day, you still have other shit to do; being blind and deaf wont help it
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 1:05:05 PM EDT
There is no need to train without hearing protection.  You are just hurting your hearing.  

During an actual incident you are not even going to really notice the sound.  Your brain goes through "auditory exclusion" where essentially the mind is not really concerned with something like a gun shot.

Never mind self defense, just talk to hunters that you might know.  They'll tell you when you actually feel the adrenalin and focus of shooting at live game, you don't even notice the sound.
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 1:06:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By King_Mud:


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


This is all true.  But what it implies is that there is no training value in shooting at the range without hearing protection.
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 1:14:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By catfssh:
I can't believe a Red Rider is 97db!!  That's crazy.


I would never train without ear pro.  It's just not comfortable and obviously bad for you.

That being said, I NEVER wear ear pro when I hunt.  Usually I only take 1 shot all day though :-)
There have been a few instances where I hit a deer with .30-06 then finish with my 9mm but just 2 shots is nothing compared to a day at the range.
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Decibels are (I believe) a logarithmic scale - that means 100 decibels is not twice as loud as 50 decibels.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 6:59:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By CyberIntel:
There is no need to train without hearing protection.  You are just hurting your hearing.  

During an actual incident you are not even going to really notice the sound.  Your brain goes through "auditory exclusion" where essentially the mind is not really concerned with something like a gun shot.

Never mind self defense, just talk to hunters that you might know.  They'll tell you when you actually feel the adrenalin and focus of shooting at live game, you don't even notice the sound.
View Quote

This. Heck, when my girlfriend shoots a deer, I'm excited enough that I don't hear a thing.
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 8:26:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 9:22:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AJE:

Your ears still do...  and they are damaged by it.

I started wearing hearing protection while hunting after going years without.
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Originally Posted By AJE:
Originally Posted By Tod-13:
Originally Posted By CyberIntel:
There is no need to train without hearing protection.  You are just hurting your hearing.  

During an actual incident you are not even going to really notice the sound.  Your brain goes through "auditory exclusion" where essentially the mind is not really concerned with something like a gun shot.

Never mind self defense, just talk to hunters that you might know.  They'll tell you when you actually feel the adrenalin and focus of shooting at live game, you don't even notice the sound.

This. Heck, when my girlfriend shoots a deer, I'm excited enough that I don't hear a thing.

Your ears still do...  and they are damaged by it.

I started wearing hearing protection while hunting after going years without.

We were talking about auditory exclusion. I hope nobody thought we meant it wouldn't effect your hearing.
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 4:00:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CyberIntel:


This is all true.  But what it implies is that there is no training value in shooting at the range without hearing protection.
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Originally Posted By CyberIntel:
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


This is all true.  But what it implies is that there is no training value in shooting at the range without hearing protection.


I firmly believe that is correct.
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 4:32:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.
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Auditory exclusion

http://www.killology.com/art_psych_combat.htm


Link Posted: 12/6/2013 2:40:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2013 2:51:11 AM EDT by ICEAGE]
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Originally Posted By King_Mud:


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

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Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Had an AR go off approximately 12" from the side of my head. 'Felt' it more then heard it. No ringing ears. No hearing damage. Granted it was only one round and in a semi confined alley and not a hallway/room indoors. Still....


Essentially it was just a pop... about the same sound level as a paintball gun. Now, I'm no doctor so I can't say it'll be the ssame for everyone. But I can say I didn't suffer any hearing loss from that paricular incident.



Training without earpro = stupid. When SHTF the rounds won't sound very loud. Your ears probably won't ring. And the trade off of not wearing earpro at that time is worth it.



Link Posted: 12/6/2013 12:45:00 PM EDT
This is rapidly becoming one of the dumber threads I've read on arfcom.

There is no magical property of adrenaline or activation of the sympathetic nervous system that will protect your hearing from loud noises.

Auditory exclusion has nothing to do with the physiology of hearing, it is a psychological process.   You may be so focused on specific events that you don't perceive or process other peripheral events, and/or you may not recall them as your memory of some of the peripheral events don't successfully transfer from short to long term memory.

But that in no way effects how the middle and inner ear functions, it does not mean you did not "hear" the sound of the gun shot (as opposed to perceiving it or recalling it) and in no ways means that the sound intensity experienced will not damage your hearing.

Link Posted: 12/6/2013 3:23:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE:


Had an AR go off approximately 12" from the side of my head. 'Felt' it more then heard it. No ringing ears. No hearing damage. Granted it was only one round and in a semi confined alley and not a hallway/room indoors. Still....


Essentially it was just a pop... about the same sound level as a paintball gun. Now, I'm no doctor so I can't say it'll be the ssame for everyone. But I can say I didn't suffer any hearing loss from that paricular incident.



Training without earpro = stupid. When SHTF the rounds won't sound very loud. Your ears probably won't ring. And the trade off of not wearing earpro at that time is worth it.



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Originally Posted By ICEAGE:
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
There are even reports of SD shootings or even combat where the shooter was actually protected by the adrenaline dump caused by the stress.


There is no magic hearing protection that kicks in. If you fire without earpro you will cause damage guaranteed. The shots might not be noticed by the shooter but that's not a physical block, just your brain discarding some sensory inputs. The amount of damage will depend on the circumstances and you may not do measureable damage but it will happen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Had an AR go off approximately 12" from the side of my head. 'Felt' it more then heard it. No ringing ears. No hearing damage. Granted it was only one round and in a semi confined alley and not a hallway/room indoors. Still....


Essentially it was just a pop... about the same sound level as a paintball gun. Now, I'm no doctor so I can't say it'll be the ssame for everyone. But I can say I didn't suffer any hearing loss from that paricular incident.



Training without earpro = stupid. When SHTF the rounds won't sound very loud. Your ears probably won't ring. And the trade off of not wearing earpro at that time is worth it.





Not being argumentative but unless you had hearing tests before and after you'll never really know. The thing about hearing loss is that by the time you notice it you are in bad shape. One round really can be enough to cause permanent hearing damage depending on the circumstances but it isn't guaranteed. It's a funny deal and I'm probably overly cautious because I always double up, even on handguns. As far as SHTF, that's what cans are for unless it's a CCW situation.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 7:46:48 AM EDT
I've never fired a gun without ears on, but I have been about 10' away from someone firing while taking a "range tour". It was mildly painful, but not ear-bleeding type stuff.

I'm going to continue practicing with ears on for safety, and I'm not going to be particularly concerned about hearing loss if I ever need to fire a gun outside of a one-way range.
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 10:07:27 AM EDT
5 slugs rapid fire out of a 12ga, no ear pro, but I didn't have much of a choice.

I barely heard the shots, but I'm sure it caused some damage.

Same thing with all the animals I've taken hunting.  Probably not so smart.  
Link Posted: 12/8/2013 10:41:49 AM EDT
way to many rounds fired with out hearing protection, wearing ears is not going to hurt your training.
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