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Posted: 9/4/2004 10:30:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 10:35:33 AM EST by Bear_B]
This makes me think twice about carrying a 9mm... could Lumpy and SGB be right after all? Pay attention to the portions I've bolded.

A pizza deliveryman won't face charges for fatally shooting a would-be robber several times when he was approached in a high-crime area, but his employer, Pizza Hut, has fired him for violating a company policy against carrying firearms.

Ronald B. Honeycutt, 38, who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, says he's been delivering pizzas for 20 years and has always packed heat on the job.

According to a report in the Indianapolis Star, prosecutors announced Friday the Carmel, Ind., man will not face criminal charges.

"It's a clear case of self-defense," Deputy Prosecutor Barb Crawford said. "He did what the law allows him to do to protect himself."

Jerome Brown-Dancler approached Honeycutt at around 11 p.m. on May 17 just after he had made a pizza delivery in Indianapolis. According to the report, Brown-Dancler pointed a 9 mm handgun at the Pizza Hut employee as he was entering his van.

Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds. An autopsy revealed Brown-Dancler was hit at least 10 times. So much for one shot stops... and it seems from reading the story that this was pretty much point blank range

According to the report, Honeycutt insists Brown-Dancler didn't fall until after the last shot was fired HOLY SHIT

"The guy kept standing. He knew he was injured when he fell," Honeycutt told the paper. "His concern was he made an error, and the only thing he could say when I was grabbing his gun off the ground was, 'I just wanted pizza.'" (so he was concerned he made a mistake, and not concerned he had been shot 10 times??? Or worse yet he was shot 10 times with the 9mm and still was coherent enough to talk about friggen PIZZA?!?!?)

After the encounter, Honeycutt took Brown-Dancler's gun, fearing it might be stolen if it was left with the body. He got in his van, drove to the Pizza Hut restaurant where he worked and told his manager to call police, Crawford said.

"This was late at night. This was a high-crime area," Crawford is quoted as saying. "He left because he wasn't sure whether or not Brown-Dancler had any friends with him. As it turns out, he did indeed have friends with him. They left when they heard shots fired."

Honeycutt says he plans to find another job delivering pizzas.

"Other criminals better think twice, because I'm going back out there," he said, "and I know I'm not alone in the way I think about this."

Some Pizza Hut customers have complained to the company after it fired Honeycutt.

"I hope those of you in the media will realize the incredible unfairness of a huge company telling its employees – in essence – they must agree to die for the company rather than use legal reasonable means to defend themselves," Rick Whitham, an Indianapolis attorney, told WND. He says he saw Pizza Hut's action as "clear discrimination against those who choose to lawfully exercise a legal, heavily regulated right."

Whitham wrote to the company: "I don't spend my money with businesses that openly discriminate against people such as myself who understand that the police have no affirmative duty to protect any particular citizen and that no company is worth dying for – particularly yours."

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:32:55 AM EST
I've never seen anyone shot with a 9mm, but I have been present for an on duty shooting with a .45.

The suspect was a female, about 5'5" 140 pounds; who got shot three times in center mass with Winchester Ranger .45 hollowpoints from a Sig 220 within 7 yards. She didn't go down or get knocked back because of the shots. She just stood there for about 5-6 seconds and screamed "Motherfucker, you shot me". She then sat down and bled... Alot.

I know that I had a VERY different idea about how a person would react immediately after being shot. I'm not going to say that I'm "salty" and have all kinds of experience, but I've seen my fair share of shooting victims several minutes after the shooting. And I feel that I'm reasonably intelligent and can dismiss alot of the "bad guy shot and flew through the air" stuff, but I still just don't understand how coherent you can be after being shot.

It really strikes home how irregardless of caliber, unless you have a central nervous system shot, the fight ain't over. I have no doubt that if she wanted to continue fighting after being shot, she could have done significant damage with a gun.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:46:14 AM EST
People don't react as fast as bullets do. Getting shot takes less than a half second, and thats too fast for the boddy to react too. By the time the body realizes what has happened it blocks pain signals so that the person can stay functional to try to save its own life. It's as simple as shooting a deer in the heart/lungs and they can still run for quit some time.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:57:24 AM EST
Yup.

The article did not specify where the hits were located or the type of ammo. But if this guy has been carrying for that many years, maybe we can ASSUME (yes I know what assuming does) that they were probably hollow points.

I never bought into that whole throwing a man off his feet thing, but I would imagine that it should HURT enough to make someone WANT to sit down.

Hell... I would think that if you shot me once, or twice or three times Id want you to quit it. But this guy stood there and took TEN shots, and apparently may have taken more if the pizza guy didnt run out of ammo.

The autopsy said AT LEAST ten shots... which may give us a clue that the shots were probably grouped well enough that at least some of the wound channels kinda ran together... and that there may have indeed been MORE hits.

We also know that the BG was close enough to talk to the pizza guy. In the original article it says the BG spoke and said something like "Hey buddy" or something similar... so I would imagine this was at a range of maybe 3 yards (9 or 10 feet) so the shots may not have been TOO wild.

But he just stood there... taking shot, after shot, after shot, after shot... and even when he fell he did not loose conciousness.... and still had enough mental awareness to tell the driver that what he wanted was Pizza...

So he was not in enough pain to ask for an ambulance... or to ask to call 911... but only to say all he wanted was Pizza. Yes I know he probably went into shock, but still... damn.

The BG did eventually die... probably bled to death... but imagine if the guy did have a round in the chamber, and during the 8 seconds of the shooting decided to start shooting back? Thats what scares me now...

I can see myself (since I work nights) having some BG getting between me and my Jeep, and pulling a gun... I pull mine and start shooting... he does not FDGB (fall down go boom) and instead decides to start shooting back. Who knows... he may get a lucky head shot on me, or when we are both out of ammo we both FDGB and bleed out.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:10:13 PM EST
Unless your carrying an M16 or hit the guy in the CNS a BG is not gonna go down right now no matter what handgun you carry. It has been stated many times on this board and others that a handgun is marginal for use as a defensive weapon. I find it hard to believe that the size difference between a 9mm and a 45 would make much of a difference in wound channels. Heck, you preach shot placement on this board. Listen to yourself and be proficient with your weapon. One or two head shots would have finished that fight without a problem. As long as you use a "service" cartridge with ammo that meets FBI penetration and expansion specs, it's not gonna matter what caliber it is.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:24:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 1:45:55 PM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:35:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:42:34 PM EST
a 9mm is not even considered a major caliber in some certain shooting sports
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:34:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
#1. Any handgun is a poor first choice in a gun fight.

#2. ONLY CNS hits get circuit breaker results.

#3. No matter what caliber your using you never stop shooting until the BG ceases ALL AGGRESSIVE ACTIONS


While Lumpy196 and I prefer the .45acp neither of us would feel under gunned packing a 9mm. Having said that I and some others feel it is the minimum acceptable caliber for self defense. It is ultimately the tenacity of the individual to continue the fight to a win that is the most important factor.

<­BR>



PS..........LUMPY196 and I are always right



Yeah yeah... I may have to eat the crow, it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:48:01 PM EST
I prefer the .45 to the 9mm and have recently sold my 9mm in favor of carrying my .45.

However, in the light of an attacker threatening me I would have done the same as Ronald B. Honeycutt and kept on firing till the attacker was stopped.

Seriously doubt that it would take more than 3-4 from my Wilson though.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:00:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By KravMaga:
I've never seen anyone shot with a 9mm, but I have been present for an on duty shooting with a .45.

The suspect was a female, about 5'5" 140 pounds; who got shot three times in center mass with Winchester Ranger .45 hollowpoints from a Sig 220 within 7 yards. She didn't go down or get knocked back because of the shots. She just stood there for about 5-6 seconds and screamed "Motherfucker, you shot me". She then sat down and bled... Alot.

I know that I had a VERY different idea about how a person would react immediately after being shot. I'm not going to say that I'm "salty" and have all kinds of experience, but I've seen my fair share of shooting victims several minutes after the shooting. And I feel that I'm reasonably intelligent and can dismiss alot of the "bad guy shot and flew through the air" stuff, but I still just don't understand how coherent you can be after being shot.

It really strikes home how irregardless of caliber, unless you have a central nervous system shot, the fight ain't over. I have no doubt that if she wanted to continue fighting after being shot, she could have done significant damage with a gun.



Not trying to hijack, but... WOW! Three rounds of .45 hollow points and she just sat down? What happened to her? Did she die?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:03:34 PM EST
I have always liked .45 acp's
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:08:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
All handgun calibers suck at ending aggressive behavior from a determined or chemically modified human.

Some just suck a little less than others





Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:12:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 3:13:43 PM EST by QuietShootr]
Guys, stuff like this isn't uncommon at all. Pat Rogers tells a story in his class of a guy who took a Winchester 12ga slug full broadside...went through the torso completely and stopped in the opposite arm. The guy looked at the shooter and said something like, "Hey motherfucker, you shot me!", and lived to stand trial. Multiple shotgun hits at close range have failed to stop BGs. Carrying a bigger gun makes you less likely to have to shoot as many times, but even .308s have failed to stop assailants.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:19:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:37:15 PM EST
How about everyone doing there part by emailing Pizza Hut and telling them what you think about Mr. Honeycutt being terminated for LEGALLY defending his self.

I told them I would be taking my family elsewhere for pizza......
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:50:37 PM EST

The funny thing about 9mm is that when you actually shoot manstopping +P rounds, it recoils just about like a .45acp.

The hard part in using it for self defense is finding decent 9mm ammo. There is only one shop in my area that sells Speer GDHP in 50 round boxes. Everywhere else it is in 20rd boxes for almost the same prices as I pay for 50. Same goes for the internet shops.

Other ammo companies only sell their top 9mm to LE, so your out of luck. The guy in the story most likely used a poor quality civilian round. The advantage of the .45acp is even a crappy round does better then the majority of 9mm .
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:17:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 5:19:59 PM EST by Dave_A]
If 10 9mm hits won't put you down, I wouldn't trust 7-8 .45ACP hits to do it either...

In that situation, I'd rather have 15 chances to hit something critical than 7-8.

Judging by the 9mm & .45's military history, EITHER is a valid choice...

I, personally, shoot better with a Beretta than a 1911, so I preferr the 9...

P.S. I'm guessing he just pointed the gun at his attacker & dumped the magazine... After the first 2-3 hits & no drop, shifting point-of-aim (say, try for a head shot) might be a good idea...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:48:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
There are days when I carry my Browning 9mm just because I love the gun. I dont worry about it. I know it'll do the job if I do my part.




WOW! I guess I'll go get all those 9 milleys out of the trash can.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:56:31 PM EST
Hmmm...

So much to think about.

I have made it a project obtaining statistics of shootings with various calibers... I get ahold of what I think is good info and it turns out to be BS.

Capacity vs. Recoil vs. Muzzle Flip vs. Velocity vs. Energy...

I think I am now more confused than when I started my research project.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:01:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Hmmm...

So much to think about.

I have made it a project obtaining statistics of shootings with various calibers... I get ahold of what I think is good info and it turns out to be BS.

Capacity vs. Recoil vs. Muzzle Flip vs. Velocity vs. Energy...

I think I am now more confused than when I started my research project.




You should also add the differences in humans these days. Look at pictures of men and women from over 100 years ago and they look like starved teenagers. In general, today's people are bigger, stronger, and tougher. It takes more to bring them down then ever before. As soon as the price of the new .50 cal 1911s come down I want one
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:45:30 PM EST
Pick a caliber you like. Shoot it until you're proficient with it.

Overthinking problems could potentially be a lot more of a problem than what percentage of an inch in diameter your slug of choice happens to be.

That said, I kinda want a .45 ACP...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:49:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:57:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
As someone said in a thread on another board, you can make a 9mm get bigger, but you cant make a .45 get smaller



Isn't that like "9mm may expand but .45 will never shrink?"



I think either is a valid choice, but I now tend to prefer .45 because it has larger hole (only tenths of an inch, but still) and I like the gentler push better than snappy +Ps. Also, regardless of caliber I shoot 1911 better than Glock anyway.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:00:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:53:51 AM EST
MOZAMBIQUE
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:59:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By simonsay:
MOZAMBIQUE




??????
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:08:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds.

His concern was he made an error,



where'd the 15th round come from..the grassy knoll?

Yeah i'd say his assessment was correct, he did make an error
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:32:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 3:33:29 AM EST by jmz5]

Originally Posted By curt:

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds.

His concern was he made an error,



where'd the 15th round come from..the grassy knoll?

Yeah i'd say his assessment was correct, he did make an error



he might have had one in the pipe
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:42:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:32:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By simonsay:
MOZAMBIQUE




??????



Two to the chest and one to the head. Difficult at best under stress, possibly fatal against multiple aggressors.



You're not doing it right, then...on multiples, you run a box drill. Get a shot into each of them, then go back and finish up with head shots.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:54:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:07:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:08:10 AM EST by QuietShootr]

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

You're not doing it right, then...on multiples, you run a box drill. Get a shot into each of them, then go back and finish up with head shots.



I believe that is the El Presidente drill...............



No, El Presidente is this: Three targets, shooter starts with his back to them. On the go signal, turn, engage each target with two rounds COM, speed load, and reengage each target with two rounds COM.

A demi-Presidente is the same, but the second string is three headshots instead of the double taps.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:51:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By curt:

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds.

His concern was he made an error,



where'd the 15th round come from..the grassy knoll?

Yeah i'd say his assessment was correct, he did make an error



Badguy (named Brown-Dancler) had the 14 rounder.

Pizza guy (named Honeycutt) had the 15 rounds.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:59:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:11:54 AM EST
Shot placement, cover and concealment, 'nough said.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:27:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By simonsay:
MOZAMBIQUE




??????




From Jeff Cooper:

"As time passes we discover that there are a good many readers who have not been to school and who are puzzled by our reference to "The Mozambique Drill."

I added The Mozambique Drill to the modern doctrine after hearing of an experience of a student of mine up in Mozambique when that country was abandoned. My friend was involved in the fighting that took place around the airport of Laurenco Marquez. At one point, Mike turned a corner was confronted by a terrorist carrying an AK47. The man was advancing toward him at a walk at a range of perhaps 10 paces. Mike, who was a good shot, came up with his P35 and planted two satisfactory hits, one on each side of the wishbone. He expected his adversary to drop, but nothing happened, and the man continued to close the range. At this point, our boy quite sensibly opted to go for the head and tried to do so, but he was a little bit upset by this time and mashed slightly on the trigger, catching the terrorist precisely between the collar bones and severing his spinal cord. This stopped the fight.

Upon analysis, it seemed to me that the pistolero should be accustomed to the idea of placing two shots amidships as fast as he can and then being prepared to change his point of aim if this achieves no results. Two shots amidships can be placed very quickly and very reliably and they will nearly always stop the fight providing a major-caliber pistol is used and the subject is not wearing body armor. However, simply chanting "two in the body, one in the head" oversimplifies matters, since it takes considerably longer to be absolutely sure of a head shot than it does to be quite sure of two shots in the thorax. The problem for the shooter is to change his pace, going just as fast as he can with his first pair, then, pausing to observe results or lack thereof, he must slow down and shoot precisely. This is not easy to do. The beginner tends to fire all three shots at the same speed, which is either too slow for the body shots or too fast for the head shot. This change of pace calls for concentration and coordination which can only be developed through practice.

Mike Rouseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War. May he rest in peace!"
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:36:35 AM EST

I should add to that, when I heard it in person, Jeff Cooper said the BD was swinging the AK around to fire after being hit twice. The third shot was just in time.

This is a good lesson on why it is not good to empty your gun center of mass on an armed bad guy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:15:20 AM EST
For every failure to stop with a 9mm, you'll find one for the 45 or any other pistol caliber. Pick a caliber, fire it until you are proficent, then run with it and hope for the best.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:25:37 PM EST
A couple of things jumped out at me in this that nobody else seems to have commented on.

First of, he estimated he unloaded all 15 rounds in 8 seconds? For that to be true, he must have one fast ass trigger finger! Assuming for a second that is true, 8 seconds is not a lot of time for a criminal's body to react the the damage it just sustained.

Another thing, we are all assuming this happened at a pretty close range yet the autopsy showed only 10 shots (out of the 15 fired) hit the perp. add that to the 15 rounds in 8 second bit and it sounds to me like this guy took the "spray and prey" approach. Only the coroner knows for sure but I'm guessing his shot placement wasn't very good.

Regardless though, the man successfully defended his life while removing one more dirtbag from the world using unknown ammo and questionable technique. How can you still argue the 9mm is not effective? Sounds like it did the job to me
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:33:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:49:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

First of, he estimated he unloaded all 15 rounds in 8 seconds? For that to be true, he must have one fastslow ass trigger finger!


fixed it for you, 15 rds in 8 seconds is not fast. plus your ability to accurately tell time in a shooting confrontation is non-existent.



Well I've never timed myself but that seemed fast to me. I timed my self shooting my "air" pistol and yes, you are right. Even still, it doesn't sound like he was too concerned about shot placement
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:56:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By curt:

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds.

His concern was he made an error,



where'd the 15th round come from..the grassy knoll?

Yeah i'd say his assessment was correct, he did make an error



NO NO NO...

the BADGUY'S gun was a 14 round mag with no round in the chamber

The GOODGUY had a PT92 or 93FS (forgot which, but it was a M-9 type gun) -> 15rd mag.

2 different guns...

GOOD GUY fired 15 rounds and hit with at least 10,

BADGUY forgot to load his gun, and kept pulling the trigger on an empty chamber as if it were a revolver. 14 rounds were still in the mag....
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:34:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

First of, he estimated he unloaded all 15 rounds in 8 seconds? For that to be true, he must have one fastslow ass trigger finger!


fixed it for you, 15 rds in 8 seconds is not fast. plus your ability to accurately tell time in a shooting confrontation is non-existent.



+1. 15 rounds in 8 seconds is screamin' slow. Unfortunately, lots of guys with misconceptions like that make it onto a jury.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:41:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:34:15 PM EST
So lumpy does carry a p35 sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do you know.

I don't understand either. This guy rattled off shots. The guy went down. Whats to worry about? He should feel lucky the guy didn't shoot back. But that has nothing to do with caliber. It has been proven time and time again a being, whether it be deer or person, can take shots from any kind of gun, including highpower rifles and continue on. You don't want to be in a fight where another is shooting at you. Even if you have a .45. But thank god he could defend himself. And by the way. Just because you think he had the greatest ammo selection doesn't make it so. And what you think is the best may not be either. If you go to the ammo forum and look up the info posted there on this type of stuff you will see that not all hollow points open 100% of the time. Especially when there is clothing involved. And since we don't usually walk around naked that'll probably be most of the time ( besides if a guy is not wearing a shirt, which I agree could be possible.) But I'm not sure why you're second guessing yourself. It's shot placement. And even then you better pray to god it all comes out in the wash. But it's a far cry from walking around with nothing. Do like the other guy said. Don't overthink it. It'll work. There is no garauntee you and I will make it through the day, much less a shooting. Do your best and caulk the rest.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:40:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By cgv69:

Originally Posted By SGB:

First of, he estimated he unloaded all 15 rounds in 8 seconds? For that to be true, he must have one fastslow ass trigger finger!


fixed it for you, 15 rds in 8 seconds is not fast. plus your ability to accurately tell time in a shooting confrontation is non-existent.



Well I've never timed myself but that seemed fast to me. I timed my self shooting my "air" pistol and yes, you are right. Even still, it doesn't sound like he was too concerned about shot placement



He said in his statement that the guy kept standing... Im thinking maybe he blasted a few and paused (still standing) blasted a few more and paused (still standing) blasted until mag was empty and paused... BG FDGB.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 12:11:21 PM EST
Any individual who unloads his pistol like this is a fool who needs training. Caliber has nothing to do with this senerio. There should have been no need for 8 seconds of shooting.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 12:12:47 PM EST
go with someting tried and true : .45 ACP all the way

if not, .357 SIG or MAG
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 2:48:27 PM EST
I finally put my new .45 on layaway.... AND something else.
I was in the fun shop today... looking at new defensive pistols. I was looking seriously at a couple different models when a old familiar one caught my eye.

A Smith and Wesson 4506 with Novak style combat sights. I picked it up and that pistol and my hand felt made for each other like butter on toast.

I was instantly on love. It looked to me like an old police trade in. It has a bit of holster wear, but other than that was in GREAT shape. The bore looked smooth and clean. Looking inside the barrel you can tell it has been shot, but very well cared for.

Ive a couple questions about this pistol.

1. How hard are extra mags to get for this weapon?

2. This one still has the stock S&W plastic grips on it... are there other available?

Oh... I fell in love with another pistol there too. Put it on layaway too (although a longer, 6 month plan since the .45 is going to be out in a 3 month plan)..

A Glock model 20 10MM!!!!

Oh Happy Day!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 2:52:25 PM EST
yeah, a .357 sig is tried and true. Not saying it isn't a good caliber but you just contradicted yourself.
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