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Posted: 4/5/2006 5:18:19 PM EST
I've heard the stats taht most deaths by guns are with 22's yada yada. Whether true or not, they certainly DO cause alot of deaths. HOW? I just got my first 22 and been shooting it and the rounds, the powder amount, the recoil - all small. Feels TOO small to kill someone. How does a tiny 22lr round kill someone unless they put it to their eye?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:22:00 PM EST
i was just in JAX, FL over the spring break. A man defended his home with a .22lr rifle. He shot a guy 3 times. Last time I saw on the news, the guy was fighting for his life. 3 shots, center mass. 10-15 feet away, not sure on type of ammo....

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:22:38 PM EST
Your "unless" just shot your whole argument down.

I can think of temple shots, also a point blank mag dump to the vitals areas could easily bleed someone to death if Immediate medical attn is not received or unavailable

There's also shock.

A .22 fucked up douchebag Brady, and nearly Killed Reagan

A .22 Killed John Lennon
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:24:32 PM EST
(oh no another battle is born)Anything can Kill someone if hit in the right spot and Im not just talking about shot placement but its a pretty important factor.

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:29:15 PM EST
A popular weapon with Italian mafia hitmen pre-Gotti-arrest was a suppressed or unsuppressed .22 pistol to the head.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:38:04 PM EST
Dumbest thread ever.


I knew a guy who was killed with an "unloaded" .22 pistol. The round bounced off his scapula and into his heart and lungs. He never had even the most remote chance of survival.

It is exactly this type of contempt for the lowly .22 that makes it so deadly.

This just in....all guns are dangerous and deadly.

IIRC the Mossad used .22 short Bererttas for their killing of the planners of the Olympic killings.

Obviosly its not the best self defense round. But......this does not mean that its safe.


Dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:47:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcculver5:
Dumbest thread ever.


I knew a guy who was killed with an "unloaded" .22 pistol. The round bounced off his scapula and into his heart and lungs. He never had even the most remote chance of survival.

It is exactly this type of contempt for the lowly .22 that makes it so deadly.

This just in....all guns are dangerous and deadly.

IIRC the Mossad used .22 short Bererttas for their killing of the planners of the Olympic killings.

Obviosly its not the best self defense round. But......this does not mean that its safe.


Dumb dumb dumb dumb.



I've only been here a couple of months more than you, and yet I've seen thousands of dumber threads.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:56:07 PM EST
Shoot a piece of thick plywood with your .22 and watch how it zips right through it like a piece of paper and you'll understand.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:03:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By mcculver5:
Dumbest thread ever.


I knew a guy who was killed with an "unloaded" .22 pistol. The round bounced off his scapula and into his heart and lungs. He never had even the most remote chance of survival.

It is exactly this type of contempt for the lowly .22 that makes it so deadly.

This just in....all guns are dangerous and deadly.

IIRC the Mossad used .22 short Bererttas for their killing of the planners of the Olympic killings.

Obviosly its not the best self defense round. But......this does not mean that its safe.


Dumb dumb dumb dumb.



I've only been here a couple of months more than you, and yet I've seen thousands of dumber threads.



Well, it really is kind of a silly question. It has a lead projectile that if it reaches a lung, heart or brain, it's all over. Or a main artery. Once that blood starts squirting from the main arteries, death is sure to follow quickly, unless somehow stopped. It's not rocket science. In WWII we had a suppressed .22 for killing sentries silently. Hopefully, it was for dogs but it's possible it got used on people.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:05:02 PM EST
I think it was a 38-caliber Charter Arms Special that killed John Lennon



Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
Your "unless" just shot your whole argument down.

I can think of temple shots, also a point blank mag dump to the vitals areas could easily bleed someone to death if Immediate medical attn is not received or unavailable

There's also shock.

A .22 fucked up douchebag Brady, and nearly Killed Reagan

A .22 Killed John Lennon

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:05:18 PM EST
while the human body can take a lot of sh*t, its still pretty fragile

bullet placement, shock, how many bullets of ANY size will F someone up
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:06:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I've heard the stats taht most deaths by guns are with 22's yada yada. Whether true or not, they certainly DO cause alot of deaths. HOW? I just got my first 22 and been shooting it and the rounds, the powder amount, the recoil - all small. Feels TOO small to kill someone. How does a tiny 22lr round kill someone unless they put it to their eye?



Don't feed the
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:09:00 PM EST
There was a woman near here who shot in the chest with a .177 cal pellet rifle a couple years ago. She was dead before the ambo arrvived.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:10:08 PM EST
A 22LR lead round nose will kill you dead as a hammer. With in 20 yards they will penetrate the front of the skull and not exit but bounce around and make lots of goo. The Israelis used suppressed 10/22's to dispatch the Palies and the Chechnyians used those biathlon rifles to take neck shots on the Ruskies. The lowly 22LR is quite the killer. If it will kill a deer it will kill you and there have been more deer taken with a 22LR than any other round for sure.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:12:34 PM EST
I had a patient in the ER about a month ago with a GSW to the leg - it was a .22. His wife was aiming for his boys and he turned at the last second. It was very close to his femoral artery. It did a little tissue damage but it would have shreaded through the artery.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:12:54 PM EST
wow. just wow. I'm staring at one now, and I'd be willing to bet that I could take one to the chest before reading this thread..... The thing's frikkin tiny.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:15:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
wow. just wow. I'm staring at one now, and I'd be willing to bet that I could take one to the chest before reading this thread..... The thing's frikkin tiny.



i would not recommend trying it.....unless you are suicidal or like pain
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:16:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
wow. just wow. I'm staring at one now, and I'd be willing to bet that I could take one to the chest before reading this thread..... The thing's frikkin tiny.



Lets see 40 grains of lead in a .22. 55 grains in a .223. (I know not all but it's been used quite a bit to cull a bad guy or 2) I think you're missing something.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:16:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
wow. just wow. I'm staring at one now, and I'd be willing to bet that I could take one to the chest before reading this thread..... The thing's frikkin tiny.



i would not recommend trying it.....unless you are suicidal or like pain

oh yea, the OSS and other SOF groups have been using suppressed .22lrs to take out BGs for decades...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:17:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
A 22LR lead round nose will kill you dead as a hammer. With in 20 yards they will penetrate the front of the skull and not exit but bounce around and make lots of goo.



I've seen this. Looking at the x-ray leaves no doubt that a .22 to the head is a bad thing.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:19:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
A 22LR lead round nose will kill you dead as a hammer. With in 20 yards they will penetrate the front of the skull and not exit but bounce around and make lots of goo.



I've seen this. Looking at the x-ray leaves no doubt that a .22 to the head is a bad thing.



I'm constantly amazed by firearms........

So what about a 177 airgun? I gure its about 3/4 the size at half the speed. any danger?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:22:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 6:26:39 PM EST by TheTracker]
hushpuppy , a few will know what I mean.
showing my age
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:27:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 6:29:42 PM EST by PBIR]

I'm constantly amazed by firearms........

So what about a 177 airgun? I gure its about 3/4 the size at half the speed. any danger?



Depends on what fps we are talking about I guess. The mighty coconut makes for a good non-scientific backyard test IMO. As a survivor of one-pump rule BB gun wars (kids don't try this at home, serious damage to your body can result) I can tell you I wouldn't want to get hit with anything say 400 fps or higher. Too many near-skin surface targets, some of which could be fatal, and little things like eyes etc.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:27:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:34:54 PM EST
A .22lr can kill the Hell out of an adult.


No friggin two ways about it.


I've killed some fairly large mammals with them for many years.



My SHTF ammo stash has 20K+ rounds of .22lr and I'm sure it would serve in many ways...


PITSNIPE OUT
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:37:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 6:38:36 PM EST by VBC]
Eskimo take Caribou with a .22 LR and iron sights everyday dude. That's true. It's shot placement.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:42:59 PM EST
spinal cord - throat - heart - I wouldn't want to be hit by one...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:45:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
How does a tiny 22lr round kill someone unless they put it to their eye?

Try working or volunteering with Police/Fire/EMS for a few years and you'll learn.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:47:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
wow. just wow. I'm staring at one now, and I'd be willing to bet that I could take one to the chest before reading this thread..... The thing's frikkin tiny.



Maybe you should try it and put us out of YOUR misery---this is really IGNORANT
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:51:46 PM EST
for the record i want to say that not all jews with guns ask such stupid questions. sorry bro.

i can't remember which show i was watching--something on discovery or tlc or one of those types of channels. but they took an nail gun and a .22lr revolver and fired both into ballistics gel. the nail didn't even completely embed itself in the gel. but the .22lr round went iirc ~12". granted that was at the muzzle but it will still get excellent penetration up to 50m.

it is still a projectile that enters the body. and it doesn't exit. it just bounces around inside messing stuff up.

lennon wasn't killed with a .22 but rfk was.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:56:30 PM EST
Quote:
"As a survivor of one-pump rule BB gun wars (kids don't try this at home, serious damage to your body can result)..."

Dude,
You just brought back some great memories but it was a three pump rule for us kids in NJ using the 760 pump master and my favorite bb gun the 766 American Classic.
I did not say it was a smart thing to do but we did it as kids.


While working on the Volunteer Emergency Squad I had a guy shoot himself in the chest by accident with a .22 short while reloading it. We were there in a heart beat and could not save the guy. The .22 had enough power to enter and bounce around like a pin ball slicing and dicing along the way. Finding the damn .22 hole in his chest was hard as hell as well. No bleeding at all since the .22 left a small entry wound and the skin sealed it up.

DO NOT underestimate the .22.
It may not stop the BG right away from beating the crap out of you when you shoot him with a few rounds but he is just as dead as he bleeds out internally.

RW3
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:00:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By aaronrb204:
for the record i want to say that not all jews with guns ask such stupid questions. sorry bro.




OK, we can forgive that--but he is one of your fellow Virginians
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:08:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 7:14:05 PM EST by wildearp]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I've heard the stats taht most deaths by guns are with 22's yada yada. Whether true or not, they certainly DO cause alot of deaths. HOW? I just got my first 22 and been shooting it and the rounds, the powder amount, the recoil - all small. Feels TOO small to kill someone. How does a tiny 22lr round kill someone unless they put it to their eye?



A 36 grain CB cap with no powder will penetrate 1.25" of phone book. Remington Subsonic will blast through 2" of phonebook and penetrate 1/4" of pine. So will CCI standard velocity. This is the weakest ammo they make. Do the math.....

I need to take my .177 pellet gun to the phone book. I know it won't be as impressive. But, it makes more noise than my supressed pistolas, so I need to do this when the neighbors are at work, and when I don't have bourbon in my hand.

PHONE BOOK OF TRUTH. why are you ing tonight? Never hunted with a .22, or even fired one????

There is no doubt in my mind that I could drop a human with a .22. Safety says you need to do some penetration tests and do some research on rimfire balistics, or at least post your card.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:08:26 PM EST
BULLET PLACEMENT!! Enought said. Do you thing a 1/8 in finishing nail could kill you? Well I watched a guy drop and die after shooting a finish nail from a nail gun from about 36 inch's from his chest. He was nailing a book shelf toghter. Died before EMS could even get there. They worked him for 15 min. Nothing. Straight to the heart. He was 47.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:08:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I've heard the stats taht most deaths by guns are with 22's yada yada. Whether true or not, they certainly DO cause alot of deaths. HOW? I just got my first 22 and been shooting it and the rounds, the powder amount, the recoil - all small. Feels TOO small to kill someone. How does a tiny 22lr round kill someone unless they put it to their eye?



Don't feed the



Not everyone who doesn't know everything about guns is a troll, you know.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:22:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 7:22:52 PM EST by Young-Kiwi]
Yep .22's are 100% harmless

NZ Herald

Man shot dead in Rotorua named

19.01.06 10.30am

Police have named the 37-year-old man shot dead in Rotorua on Tuesday.

Edwin Dale Te Haara, unemployed of Rotorua, died after being shot in the neck while he was jogging along Gordon Road at 5.30pm.

Detective Senior Sergeant Mark Loper said Mr Te Haara was shot after a "verbal altercation" with a couple in a car, who they believe knew the victim.

But he said: "It's not a gang-versus-gang type thing."

Mr Loper said a team of 28 police are searching for the couple.

The driver was described as a female of light complexion with shoulder-length hair tied in a ponytail. A male in the car had a dark complexion.

He said police wanted to hear from anyone who saw a tulle green Mitsubishi RVR car, similar to a Mitsubishi Chariot in the area at the time.

Mr Te Haara was believed to have Black Power connections, Mr Loper said.

He had moved to Rotorua in April from Auckland.

Forensic police were examining a .22 sawn-off rifle which was found at the scene of the shooting in suburban Western Heights.

Autopsy results were expected later today.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:23:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I'm constantly amazed by firearms........

So what about a 177 airgun? I gure its about 3/4 the size at half the speed. any danger?



A 10 year old male was shot in the chest with a pump-up Crossman air rifle by a newspaper carrier
and died before the ambulance got there. The shooter was a 13 year old and didn't pull any time.
This was in Norfolk Va. a few years ago.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:24:13 PM EST
2 reason why the .22 is a good weapon.

1. It bounces. It depends on the shot, but you can do more damage with a .22 than a .45 if it bounces around inside you. Of course I'm not going to try my luck with it.

2. It's quiet. Put a silencer or pillow on the end and nobody is going to hear it. (refering the to mob post)
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:04:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 8:11:43 PM EST by muddydog]
i've worked on about 40 or so people shot by .22's.

the velocity of a 40gr lead bullet richocheting around inside the chest cavity..has a strong tendency to shred lungs.. cause hearts to spring leaks..leaks that you cant find in surgery...
ther have been nights when i wanted to send down a bottle of BARS STOP LEAK to a surgeon..

they'll penetrate skulls.. full length and set up on the opposing side..
uknow..grey matter doesnt really like foreign objects..

getting a .22 lodged in your spine..is a downer...4sure.
or having 2 teeth turned into shrapnel, shredding out the vascular system of your neck would qualify as well.

i honestly dont know how many deer i killed or watched being killed with a .22 SHORT.. when was young and impressionable.
i dont think we ever lost one..to a .22 short.

more people have died.. to that round than to all others in non combat shootings.


Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:12:20 PM EST
Back when I was on the 'bolance, I saw plenty of people 'deaded' with a .22.


Shot placement, lack of EMS response time, or a combination of the two killed 'em dead.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:15:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:27:40 PM EST
.22 bullet wound.




"Displayed here is an entrance at the left and an exit at the right. This particular bullet struck at an angle to produce the ovoid entrance. Exit wounds vary considerably in size and shape because the bullet can be deformed in its transit through the body. There may be no exit wound at all if the bullet's energy is absorbed by the tissues. Some bullets (such a "hollowpoint") are designed to deform so that all their energy will be converted to tissue damage and not exit."
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:29:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
Your "unless" just shot your whole argument down.

I can think of temple shots, also a point blank mag dump to the vitals areas could easily bleed someone to death if Immediate medical attn is not received or unavailable

There's also shock.

A .22 fucked up douchebag Brady, and nearly Killed Reagan

A .22 Killed John Lennon



Lennon was shot with a .32 multiple times, and it took a while for him to die. A .22 can be quite lethal if placed skillfully.

You only need 3 inches or so of penetration to reach the heart if there's nothing in between. A kitchen paring knife is long enough to cause a fatal penetrating wound.

Of course, neck wounds would do the job, hit the windpipe or the spine, and it doesn't take much penetration at all to do that.

Bleeding out isn't dependable enough or quick enough to be counted on. If you're defending yourself with a .22, place your shots effectively and be prepared to make multiple vital hits.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:35:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL-01:
A 22LR lead round nose will kill you dead as a hammer. With in 20 yards they will penetrate the front of the skull and not exit but bounce around and make lots of goo.



I've seen this. Looking at the x-ray leaves no doubt that a .22 to the head is a bad thing.



I'm constantly amazed by firearms........

So what about a 177 airgun? I gure its about 3/4 the size at half the speed. any danger?



300 FPS is the minimum necessary to pierce skin with a steel or copper BB. Pellets have more penetration by virtue of increased weight.

They're capable of doing the same kind of damage as a .22 in many cases. In fact, the .177 often has trouble killing small game, especially with BB's, because of overpenetration.

I've tested pellets myself and they are capable of expanding to about .30 caliber. This from a .177 Crosman M66 that shoots at 645 fps with a 8.5gr pellet.

Pellets are also capable of tumbling in some cases and I bet they'd fragment if they were shot at a sufficiently high velocity.

I don't think it would add to the wounding effect, but pellets do behave a lot like unjacketed lead bullets.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:36:21 PM EST
Guy at Cabelas behind the gun counter was telling me about how the worst gun shot wound he EVER saw while working as a police officer was a .22 that hit a guy in the hip/pelvis area... bounced off the bone, THROUGH the dude's testicles, off the other side of the hip and eventually lodged down in one of his legs.

OUCH.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:56:39 PM EST
Wouldn't be my first choice for a defensive round (last actually) but I remember my grandfather (who was a Sherif's deputy) telling me that .22lrs killed more people in crimes than any other round. For whatever that's worth. I'm sure that's because the cheapest guns were .22 and very prevelent. This was before the popularity of the "9" in gangs etc.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 9:12:19 PM EST
Right after we were issued the new kevlar helmets on of the guys in the unit decided to test his new helmet with his .22. He set it on the ground (thank the powers) with a pocket .22 lr. It put a nice round hole right through the front. IIRC, it wound up cost the the lad a about $300 to replace the equipment.

A couple of years ago, I had a possum dig a hole in my roof and was setting up a nest in the space between the roof and ceiling. I finally lured him out one night and when he finally got far enough out, I shot him twice in the face with my .22 pistol from about 18 ". He just walked away! But he never did come back
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 9:29:32 PM EST
I investigated a suicide of a male where he shot himself in the head with a 22 LR from a revolver. One shot was all it took. The round entered the ear, exited the opposite side of the head, ricocheted off the wall behind him (maybe 30 deg angle). Ricocheted off the wall perpendicular to that wall, traveled through a 6" suspended light globe (got the bulb too). Struck the wall next perpendiculare wall and bounced on the floor. There was very little deformation. I would say the bullet was a 40 grain lead type. I don't recall the brand. The path of travel was counter clockwise.


Just last week we had a guy shoot himself in the chest. He was in critical condition for a little over a day in the ICU. Now we have a BOL out for him and a specific vehicle. He is back to being suicidal and has unknown qty/type of firearms. Maybe he will get it right this time.

I have seen several others with a 22 and other calibers to include 6mm, 357 mag, and 12 gauge. We had a guy so determined to get it right the first time he used a 12 ga. The barrel was just long enough so he could not reach the trigger. He cut the barrel down and got the job done right. Just his neck left above the shoulders.

I also believe it ihas been said the 22 LR has probable taken more deer than any other caliber. It is used by poachers. It has a lot to do with shot placement.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:15:33 PM EST
Some of this is has been covered, but I'll put it in here anyways. My grandfather killed numerous out of season deer(during the depression mostly) and during that time he would use a .22 since the sound didn't carry as far. The .22 was a favorite of assassins since it was easily silenced and it will penetrate one side of your skull and bounce around. It was(perhaps still is) used by SEALs to silence guard dogs. A woman in Miami killed her abusive husband in self-defense with a borrowed RG .22lr revolver, she shot him 3 times in the chest and he ran 20ft before falling dead. There was a police officer who died from a gunshot wound to the arm from a .22- the wound should have been non-fatal and its been put forth that TV conditioned him to believe that one simply died after being shot. I also read about a SWAT officer who was killed by a .22 that bounced off of his arm bone, through his armpit(above the side of his vest) and into his heart.

All of the non-assassin/special forces examples came from books and articles by Massad Ayoob, and I recommend his books to anyone interested in law enforcement or your self defense rights and options.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:32:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By qiqazz:
Some of this is has been covered, but I'll put it in here anyways. My grandfather killed numerous out of season deer(during the depression mostly) and during that time he would use a .22 since the sound didn't carry as far. The .22 was a favorite of assassins since it was easily silenced and it will penetrate one side of your skull and bounce around. It was(perhaps still is) used by SEALs to silence guard dogs. A woman in Miami killed her abusive husband in self-defense with a borrowed RG .22lr revolver, she shot him 3 times in the chest and he ran 20ft before falling dead. There was a police officer who died from a gunshot wound to the arm from a .22- the wound should have been non-fatal and its been put forth that TV conditioned him to believe that one simply died after being shot. I also read about a SWAT officer who was killed by a .22 that bounced off of his arm bone, through his armpit(above the side of his vest) and into his heart.

All of the non-assassin/special forces examples came from books and articles by Massad Ayoob, and I recommend his books to anyone interested in law enforcement or your self defense rights and options.



.22 is still used by many forces for silencing dogs and the like. It's quite effective at close range when well-placed. Probably the #1 best assassin round of all time.

It's been rumored that a .22 is capable of penetrating more than .45 FMJ, I find that hard to believe, but I know the .22 is much more effective/powerful than a lot of people would tend to believe.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:48:22 PM EST
I was told by a local gunstore owner that in a bullet deflection test a .22lr hitting wooden dowels stayed truer to its course than a .45 FMJ in the same test. I have no idea where he got this or if its true, but I figured I'd toss it out there.
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