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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/14/2004 7:19:24 AM EST
Killing time this morning and came across an interesting article at www.hangunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/index1.html. about tactical reloads. Article states basically that a reload at the gun is an iffy and tactically undsound propostition at best. The best TR would be a speed reload and then pick up the partially depleted mag from the ground and stuff is somewhere.

I did not post this to bash IDPA as this reload would be legal but slow against the clock. Forgot who said it but he said there has been more contoversy over the TR than all of the other topics combined associated with IDPA. Wouldn't a reload with retention be the best method of practice while in an IDPA match if you are concerned with where you finish? That is to store the partially spent mag in a pocket and slam a fresh one in.

Has anyone here ever shot in a match where a TR was required at the gun(fresh and spent mag in the hand at the same time), or is it always the shooters option. Would like to hear some comments.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:29:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:42:54 AM EST
Tactical reload = lull in fight and done from behind cover

Speed reload = during the fight usually from slide lock or when clearing a malfunction....seek cover if possible
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:55:25 AM EST
Let's get a couple of definitions clear here

tactical reload: bringing the fully charged magazine to the gun, dropping the spent magazine into that same hand, and inserting the fully charged magazine in the gun.

reload with retention: dropping the spent magazine into your hand and putting it in your pocket, then drawing the fully charged magazine and inserting it in the gun.


I think the idea of a tactical reload, or reload with retention, or speed reload gets way too much attention. In general it's a complaint of the IPSC shooters who simply aren't used to doing it. It's also generally disgussed way out of context. The only time you should do either of these is when you are behind cover and momentarily "safe". Any other time you're going to shoot to slidelock and dump the empty on the ground. Unless you're a real billy-bad-ass, you're not going to notice that you're close to running out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight, and vitrtually everyone will virtually always shoot to slidelock in the real world. TR/RWR are simply ways to have your firearm fully charged for the next "wave" of attackers (that BTW never happens in the civilian real world anyway).

Now, as to whether the TR or the RWR is better, it's personal preference more than anything else. If you can get the TR down pat, then it probably is faster from a gaming standpoint. However most people are never going to practice enough to be good at it, and so should stick to the RWR. If you drop the empty in the pocket on your weak side anyway then it can be almost as fast at the TR.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:57:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By simonsay:
Killing time this morning and came across an interesting article at www.hangunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/index1.html. about tactical reloads.



www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/ is what you're talking about. and incidentally that guy is a total boob. He thinks that rapelling gives him any sort of clue about what it's like to make decisions when someone else is trying to kill you. I don't even know where to beging to explain how screwed up that "logic" is.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:02:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 8:09:02 AM EST by simonsay]
me computer illiterate
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:04:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By simonsay:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I've done two types of TR loads while competing and have found there isn't that much difference in time.

The first one that most people recommend is having the fresh mag in hand when releasing the mag from the gun. While with practice this is a faster reload, the chances of messing up the reload are greater IMO.
This reload requires more motion and is slower and less reliable for me. Support hand from gun to the mag, back to gun, back to pocket, back to gun.The second one is where I release the mag from the pistol into my weak hand. I bring the partially loaded mag to a pocket, and then retrieve the fresh mag and load it into the pistol. While this is a little slower, I find less of a chance of screwing up the reload.
Faster for me and more reliable. Support hand from gun to pocket, to mag close to pocket, to gun.


I don't think dropping the mag and then having to pick it up is the way to go in any case. YMMV


The point of the article states that the above two methods place more emphasis on storing the depleted mag, than to have a fully loaded gun under stress. Israeli security officer says tactical reloads are getting people killed.
Hope you guys will read it and see if you get out of it what I did.

Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:06:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:07:27 AM EST
sorry
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:09:21 AM EST
Let us not forget the most efficient of combat/tactical handgun reloads...

The NEW YORK reload! Gun fighting isn't just an old west activity...
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:11:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 8:11:49 AM EST by norman74]

Originally Posted By nationwide:
Let us not forget the most efficient of combat/tactical handgun reloads...

The NEW YORK reload! Gun fighting isn't just an old west activity...



Best movie NY reload ever has to be Chow Yun-Fat in The Replacement Killers where he does this cool-ass double spin move to draw the second pair of pistols.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:15:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
Let us not forget the most efficient of combat/tactical handgun reloads...

The NEW YORK reload! Gun fighting isn't just an old west activity...



Best movie NY reload ever has to be Chow Yun-Fat in The Replacement Killers where he does this cool-ass double spin move to draw the second pair of pistols.



Hell, that even just sounds cool!
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:05:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
Let us not forget the most efficient of combat/tactical handgun reloads...

The NEW YORK reload! Gun fighting isn't just an old west activity...



Best movie NY reload ever has to be Chow Yun-Fat in The Replacement Killers where he does this cool-ass double spin move to draw the second pair of pistols.



Hell, that even just sounds cool!


He had a pair of Berettas tucked into the front of his pants, a pair tucked into the back of his pants, and a Beretta in each hand. 6 Berettas and still had to do a speed reload to get the bad guy at the end.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:59:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 1:00:56 PM EST by kpel308]
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 2:52:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By kpel308:
To minimize time with an empty pistol, I shoot 6 (if having the rare luxury of being able to count rounds), hopefully leaving a round in the chamber, eject the spent mag into my left hand (weak side), place the base between the pinkie and ring finger of the right hand holding the pistol so that the empty is clear of the mag well, then grab my fresh mag, insert it, THEN put the old mag in my hip pocket, in case it has any rounds in it. This way, you can keep a hot weapon towards the threat.
YMMV



This is one I have never heard of.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:10:45 PM EST
Well, as it was explained to me, the idea of a tactical reload at the gun was to keep the weapon loaded for the maximum amount of time. Since a TR is only done at a lull in the fight behond cover with the possiblity of more threat appearing, you bring the fresh mag to the gun while keeping a partial mag in, use the small amount of time to change mags and then put the partial mag away. The entire time you are still able to shoot strong hand only.

Yes I have seen some confusion at IDPA matches over the two types of reloads, with practice (lots of it) you can get the TR at the gun to be just as fast or faster than a RWR, as you can continue shooting strong-hand only.

Yes, I have seen "at the gun" TR dictated in the course of fire, but it is much more common to allow a RWR as well.

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:18:16 PM EST
This is why I dislike IPSC and to a lesser degree IDPA.

A tactical reload is executed during a lull in the fight, when you CAN do it. A speed reload is done when you HAVE to get more ammo in the gun NOW.

You don't discard a partially spent magazine, because you MIGHT need those rounds later. Fucking around dropping a mag on the deck then bending down to pick it up ON PURPOSE is fucking dimwitted.

And, you don't release the partially expended mag until you have a grip on the new one, because shit happens. What if it's not there? What if it fell out in the fight? Now you have one round left in your gun, and you're having to go to the deck to find the one you just dropped ON PURPOSE.

Fucking gamers.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:19:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By CaptainAhab:
Well, as it was explained to me, the idea of a tactical reload at the gun was to keep the weapon loaded for the maximum amount of time. Since a TR is only done at a lull in the fight behond cover with the possiblity of more threat appearing, you bring the fresh mag to the gun while keeping a partial mag in, use the small amount of time to change mags and then put the partial mag away. The entire time you are still able to shoot strong hand only.




This is the proper method.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:07:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
And, you don't release the partially expended mag until you have a grip on the new one, because shit happens.
Fucking gamers.



I think what I was trying to ask is this. If you want to shoot IDPA, practice dry at home, or shoot at the range, to be better equipped to handle a real encounter, which reload would be best to default to under high stress. According to the article, if you find it credible, the TR "at the gun" is not a good real world choice. Obviously dropping a semi loaded mag in the mud isn't a good thing either. This leaves us with RWR. I see too many problems with TR at the gun.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:24:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 5:29:57 PM EST by kpel308]
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:44:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 5:46:49 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:10:28 PM EST

I can't remember the name of the officer who invented the "New York Reload," but I do remember he used two six shot revolvers and never had to draw his backup revolver (#3). If you are still in need of ammo after twelve shots of .357, the pistol is not for you, at least in the real world.

If you are just discussing IPSC games, carry on
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:30:37 AM EST
I've always thought that IDPA should change their policy of doing tactical reloads on the clock. I know some clubs have moved away from it requiring any stage over six rounds (revo friendly) to be shot in strings. The tactical reload is done between strings to represent a lull in the fight.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:00:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
I've always thought that IDPA should change their policy of doing tactical reloads on the clock. I know some clubs have moved away from it requiring any stage over six rounds (revo friendly) to be shot in strings. The tactical reload is done between strings to represent a lull in the fight.



I wouldn't participate any longer if that were the case. It would be boring as shit. Hell, even now I don't design a COF with less than the 18 round max. You will still learn the same lessons on shooting ability regardless of whether you shoot a 6 round COF or an 18. The 18 is just alot more fun.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:17:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
I've always thought that IDPA should change their policy of doing tactical reloads on the clock. I know some clubs have moved away from it requiring any stage over six rounds (revo friendly) to be shot in strings. The tactical reload is done between strings to represent a lull in the fight.



I wouldn't participate any longer if that were the case. It would be boring as shit. Hell, even now I don't design a COF with less than the 18 round max. You will still learn the same lessons on shooting ability regardless of whether you shoot a 6 round COF or an 18. The 18 is just alot more fun.



I agree. The single biggest gunhandling improvement I've gotten from shooting IDPA is fast reloading.

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:30:49 PM EST
18 round COF sounds more like an IPSC stage. Do you hold to the 10 round mag limit forcing a slide lock reload or do you force reloads from cover?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:11:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
18 round COF sounds more like an IPSC stage. Do you hold to the 10 round mag limit forcing a slide lock reload or do you force reloads from cover?



Yup, still limited to 10 round mags. I don't believe in forcing people to do shit on stages. I provide cover and opportunity to reload as one sees fit. If you want to game it you can. If you want to use it as an opportunity to practice your 'tactical' skills you can do that instead.

Bear in mind, all reloads in IDPA must be from behind cover. If you have a shoot & move stage, you're better off doing a TR/RWR before you move to the next cover.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:05:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 7:07:50 PM EST by CaptainAhab]

Originally Posted By simonsay:

I think what I was trying to ask is this. If you want to shoot IDPA, practice dry at home, or shoot at the range, to be better equipped to handle a real encounter, which reload would be best to default to under high stress. According to the article, if you find it credible, the TR "at the gun" is not a good real world choice. Obviously dropping a semi loaded mag in the mud isn't a good thing either. This leaves us with RWR. I see too many problems with TR at the gun.



I believe that you need to seperate "what you might do for IDPA" and "what you might do for an actual encounter" As someone once said, "I have never seen a gunfight that had a PACT timer" Any reload that is not from slide lock will most likely be after the encounter has passed, but in the case that the people seeking to do you harm are re-grouping to attack again, you would use the unknown quantity of time you have in that lull to tactically reload your pistol and ensure it is fully charged. Ideally this should happen when you are behind full cover that can protect you while you take your time to reload the pistol. This should result ina much more controllable reload "at the gun" that is not rushed. Think methodical reload.

IDPA on the other hand, grades you on time. So to win the game, you must do your tactical reloads as quickly and as rushed as possible before moving on to other targets. This type of TR is typically planned for while a competitor is deciding how they want to shoot a particular stage, and is performed in a known, to the competitor, lull of time between shooting in which you have the very convenient advantage of the targets not advancing on your position. This makes having a single round in the gun, as in a RWR, for a longer period of time more practical.

I would have both tools in my toolbox, and try my best to understand the what-if game of possibilities in a gunfight. I would also forget about dropping anything I might want again. If you can live better without the three rounds in that mag, drop them and move on. I don't want to have to fight in two directions at once, and I don't want to have to go back to the same place I just was. I view both of those as a greater tactical liability than fumbling a magazine at the gun.

But that's just an opinion, the easy answer to the same question is do what works best for you.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:54:21 AM EST
The games have their utility I suppose, but the best idea is to forget about them when it comes to a real fight.

When you are doing room clearing and your brain is looking for danger around every turn, you do some goofy sh*t, even if you do have training.

Bottom line? If you have enough time to think about how many rounds are in your pistol, reload it. Shove the partially expended mag in your pocket or just drop it and go on. Do WHATEVER COMES NATURALLY TO DO IN THIS SITUATION. If you have trained right, your instincts will take over. If not, then don't try and run down your mental check-list or you will suddenly become all thumbs and screw yourself royally.

I hear the screams now: "But you might need those rounds later!!"

The average gunfight doesn't last all that long and there aren't that many shots being fired. The odds of you needing those rounds down the road are pretty slim. But if you have just been in the sh*t and you have had to fire your weapon, you don't have the luxury of assuming hostilities have ceased. Your brain needs to be focused on looking for and dealing with any new threats or evaluating the status of the old one. (You don't eval once, you do it continually)

Thus in that moment you don't have time to worry about what you are doing with your magazines. You should not interrupt your focus on threat to figure out what to do with mags. That is a dumb idea.

I practice TR's and can do them just fine. When I have been in training I have done them just fine. (I use the method of grabbing the fresh mag and bringing it to the weapon before I eject the current mag. This is the best way to do one if you are going to...)

But when I got into the shoot house under stress, things changed. I didn't shoot to slide lock, but I could feel that there weren't many rounds left in the mag by the weight of the pistol. (A benefit of doing a lot of training and carry with the same gun is that you can feel what it is doing before it does it, like when it is about to run out of ammo....) Most of the time I just dropped the mag (which never had more than 1 or 2 rounds in it) and shoved in another.

Sometimes I did a TR.

I just flowed with what the situation required of me and did just fine. Train right, and you won't have to worry about what to do when you are under stress. I can't tell you how many times on the range I would see the slide lock, drop the mag, jam in another, drop the slide and be halfway through the trigger pull before my brain even figured out that I needed to reload.

When you train enough you operate on reflex when the weapon runs out of ammo or malfs on you. This is enormously helpful. You do things like second nature without a single bit of brain power going to the task of manipulating the weapon, leaving it free to concentrate on more important things.

The technique of bringing a new mag to the pistol before ejecting the current mag is smart, but is har d to do without tying your fingers in knots when using doublestack magazines. If you carry a 1911 it is no big deal. Those with small hands and hicaps struggle with it, and I would much rather them just drop the existing mag and do a speed reload than sit around fumbling with magazines trying to do a proper tactical reload.

When people start to fumble around with mags, their concentration goes to sh*t and they start sweeping with muzzles and doing all sorts of other horrific things. Then when they do the reload they have to fumble with getting the mag in the pocket, and after all that is over they have to get their brain to get back in "stop-badguy-from-killing-me" mode.

It is just a waste of time.

Certainly TR's have their place. But we should not over-state their usefulness.

Do what you have to do when you need to do it.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:25:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:54:29 AM EST
Ken --

Probably a ton of them, and they have probably never looked at this issue.

Consider when you are "supposed" to do a tactical reload. During a lull in a gunfight. Has anyone actually seen a person when the crap stops flying for a minute? The shakes set in, the nausea, the feeling of being about to pass out, the complete mental shutdown of "What the F**K just happened?"

And this is the time to play musical loaded magazines? Heck no. Drop the old one, slam in a fresh one, and find a safe place to hunker down and wait for the calvary. Odds are that if you need those extra rounds in the dropped mag that you are in far bigger trouble than your handgun will get you out of anyway.

Besides, this is why you carry a backup piece, right? Those of us who carry them don't do it because we are just in love with carrying another heavy object, you know.

Tactical reloads have their place. (The range, the shoothouse, etc...) But in a real life or death situation with the realities of what is going on, what is a simple process on the range becomes enormously complex. And let's face it: People don't train. They don't. Cops, .mil guys, civvys, you name it, few train like they should. When was the last time anyone here spent an hour doing nothing but mag changes? Malf drills?

Not to mention that on a nice safe range without even a timer pressuring you doing a TR with some of those doublestack magazines is a friggin pain in the butt. I either grip the mags too high, or too low most of the time, making a smooth reload difficult. Occasionally I get it right. But not often. Now speed reloads I do without thought. Because I practice them more? No, because they are less complicated than a TR. I have bigger hands than 90 percent of the people out there who touch a gun and I STILL struggle with it.

The concept of "tactical" (anymore that word should be a gigantic warning sign to anyone serious....) reload in or near an actual fight makes no sense, especially with a handgun. If people took their time and did them slow, it wouldn't be a problem. Because the only time to do a TR is SUPPOSED to be when you are not in a hurry. The tactic only works when you are not in a hurry. Yet how many people do them slow? And how many more will do them at a sane pace when they have just tried to defend their life and the adrenaline is pumping?

The whole fine motor skill vs gross motor skill debate is silly. Hitting the slide release can be done easily IF YOU TRAIN TO DO IT. YOU WILL DO WHAT YOU HAVE TRAINED TO DO IF YOU HAVE TRAINED PROPERLY!!

If you have NOT trained properly, then you will be scrambling to try and figure out what in the name of Zeus you are doing.

Thus if I have done a few hundred reloads from slidelock using the slide release, if I ever have to do the same in an actual fight the odds are that I will do it quite naturally. If, however, I spend time carrying 9,000 different handguns and take all my time reading gun magazines, then odds are I will find such actions quite difficult.

But I have news: The same people will find slingshotting the slide difficult too! Do you know how many times I have seen someone jerking on the trigger of an autopistol with the slide locked open? Or how many times I have seen someone stop shooting and start fumbling with their weapon when they experience a malfunction?

I was shooting last Saturday when a fellow I was shooting with experienced a dud round in his gun. When he pulled the trigger and it went *CLICK* instinctively my hands tried to do a TRB drill when they weren't even holding the pistol.

At that point I began to scream at him: "DEAL WITH IT! TAP, RACK, RE-AQUIRE!! FIX IT NOW!!" At which point he looked at me like I was mad and kept fumbling. All the while I am yelling "DEAL WITH IT! GET BACK IN THE FIGHT!!". Finally I took the weapon from him, tapped, racked, and fired a round, decocked and handed it back.

He looked at me. "What is your problem?"

"You had a dud round, and you stood there fumbling with your weapon. You need to deal with it and get back in the fight."

"I wasn't in a fight. In a fight I would have acted differently."

"No, in a fight you would have stood there looking stupid as the day is long and gotten yourself killed. You will do under stress what you have TRAINED yourself to do. In your mind *CLICK* means fumble with my weapon, and that's what you will do in a fight. If you can't think clearly on a nice safe range because your gun isn't working and there is a guy yelling at you, what makes you think you will actually be able to manage a situation where there are people trying to kill you?"

You will act in a fight as you have trained to do. For me, that most likely means when I run out of ammo or think I have, I will speed load and move on. I am not going to spend time fumbling with magazines in a time where I will have the shakes and nausea and heaven-knows-what-else going on.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:22:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I was shooting last Saturday when a fellow I was shooting with experienced a dud round in his gun. When he pulled the trigger and it went *CLICK* instinctively my hands tried to do a TRB drill when they weren't even holding the pistol.

At that point I began to scream at him: "DEAL WITH IT! TAP, RACK, RE-AQUIRE!! FIX IT NOW!!" At which point he looked at me like I was mad and kept fumbling. All the while I am yelling "DEAL WITH IT! GET BACK IN THE FIGHT!!". Finally I took the weapon from him, tapped, racked, and fired a round, decocked and handed it back.

He looked at me. "What is your problem?"

"You had a dud round, and you stood there fumbling with your weapon. You need to deal with it and get back in the fight."

"I wasn't in a fight. In a fight I would have acted differently."

"No, in a fight you would have stood there looking stupid as the day is long and gotten yourself killed. You will do under stress what you have TRAINED yourself to do. In your mind *CLICK* means fumble with my weapon, and that's what you will do in a fight. If you can't think clearly on a nice safe range because your gun isn't working and there is a guy yelling at you, what makes you think you will actually be able to manage a situation where there are people trying to kill you?"

You will act in a fight as you have trained to do. For me, that most likely means when I run out of ammo or think I have, I will speed load and move on. I am not going to spend time fumbling with magazines in a time where I will have the shakes and nausea and heaven-knows-what-else going on.




And how many of these guys, in an IDPA setting, have you seen stand out in the middle of everywhere and deal with it, rather than seek cover to clear it? I can't think of a single time. That can't be a good habit in the real world.

BUT with that said, I enjoy the shit out of IDPA, and still think that doing any sort of practical firearm competition is better than simply going to the range and punching paper, or running around with your friends shooting milk jugs.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:54:20 PM EST
i think the new york reload was "invented" by jim cirillo (sp?) a narc cop with nypd in the 70s/80s. guy was in like 200 (!) gunfights from what i remember.

on the subject of tac reloads:

ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY?!

mr wayne has it 100%. tac reloads are hard to do under normal conditions. i have really big hands and practiced them for a while. i'd still screw up every once in a while.

add stress. not competition stress but "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!!!" stress. i've had the pucker meter hit "11" a couple of times. unless you've got a lot of high stress experience (read: special ops) your fine motor skills will leave not only the building, but the whole continent. regardless of how many reps you've done. why do you think EVERY cop looks rediculous on the tape the dashboard camera caught the shootout with. are they ALL barney fife? they POINT the gun and pull the trigger as fast as they can.

so now you want to juggle mags? you'll be lucky to do a regular reload.

there are probably a few dozen guys on this board who have been on the wrong end of a firefight. here's a question (poll) for the general forum:

who here has done a tactical reload under fire?

i got the under on 0
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:58:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 5:00:44 PM EST by OLY-M4gery]
Here's a problem I see with the "tactical reload", most people that advocate it will say you spend less time without a magazine in the gun. Sounds good right? We all like magazines in the gun right? Most people shoot firearms 2 handed, rifle, shtogun, and handguns.

Under stress if you are engaged in a magazine change, with the partially spent magazine in your hand, and a target presents itself (meaning someone is activley trying to kill you, and you know it) you are likely not to shoot until that support hand returns to the weapon. It is also likely that you will put a death grip on the magazine in your hand, and try to grab the gun, while trying to hold onto that magazine. Same thing when you go to get the fresh magazine. Any of that can slow you down when you are trying to defend yourself.

You not only need to minimize the time that your gun doesn't have a magaizine in it, but also the amount of time you don't have 2 hands on the gun.

Under stress it is often best to concentrate on doing ONE thing at a time. trying to do complicated tasks will often result in "fumble fingers" that cost far more time, than a slower less complicated task would've taken.

Reloading in battery is a good idea. Saving any partially spent magazines is a good idea. But knowing when, how etc to do those things, and not making tactical mistakes is also important.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 6:11:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i think the new york reload was "invented" by jim cirillo (sp?) a narc cop with nypd in the 70s/80s. guy was in like 200 (!) gunfights from what i remember.

on the subject of tac reloads:

ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY?!

mr wayne has it 100%. tac reloads are hard to do under normal conditions. i have really big hands and practiced them for a while. i'd still screw up every once in a while.

add stress. not competition stress but "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!!!" stress. i've had the pucker meter hit "11" a couple of times. unless you've got a lot of high stress experience (read: special ops) your fine motor skills will leave not only the building, but the whole continent. regardless of how many reps you've done. why do you think EVERY cop looks rediculous on the tape the dashboard camera caught the shootout with. are they ALL barney fife? they POINT the gun and pull the trigger as fast as they can.

so now you want to juggle mags? you'll be lucky to do a regular reload.

there are probably a few dozen guys on this board who have been on the wrong end of a firefight. here's a question (poll) for the general forum:

who here has done a tactical reload under fire?

i got the under on 0



The answer is going to be 0, because you don't do a tactical reload under fire. You do a speed reload.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:20:20 AM EST
Since those that advocate the TR or RWR have been accused of being nothing more than armchair commandos or gamers, I'd like to know the qualifications of the accusers.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:46:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
And how many of these guys, in an IDPA setting, have you seen stand out in the middle of everywhere and deal with it, rather than seek cover to clear it? I can't think of a single time. That can't be a good habit in the real world.

BUT with that said, I enjoy the shit out of IDPA, and still think that doing any sort of practical firearm competition is better than simply going to the range and punching paper, or running around with your friends shooting milk jugs.



The best policy when your weapon pukes is to do what no rangemaster will let you do, and that is to drop the non-functional weapon and draw the backup which should always be there. I took an opportunity when working on malf drills all day at a class to show the instructor how I dealt with a malfunction. I jammed the "malfed" weapon in the holster, whipped out the 442 that until that moment nobody knew I had, and engaged three targets.

Whereupon the instructor said "Well sure. That's a much better way to handle things if you have a backup available."

I have seen very little training that incorporates the backup gun as it should, save for long gun courses that incorporate pistol transitions. Having a backup handgun when your primary weapon is a handgun is even MORE crucial in my opinion.

It would be nice if IDPA and other training organizations could incorporate the doctrine of a backup piece into their stages and training.

IDPA has its good points, and I don't knock it. But it is, after all, a game, and is as different from the real thing as boxing is from a street fight. One is certainly more prepared to fight if they have done IDPA properly than if they had done nothing, but it doesn't make them ready to face life or death. (To be honest, nothing does....) The enlightened mind will take all the good they can out of IDPA without taking any of the bad with them...
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:10:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i think the new york reload was "invented" by jim cirillo (sp?) a narc cop with nypd in the 70s/80s. guy was in like 200 (!) gunfights from what i remember.



Ummm....No. I don't think anyone could survive 200 gunfights.

Cirillo, from what I understand, survived 20 gunfights. Which still means that he averaged about one per year of his career, which is a number that will never be duplicated. (Nor would any sane person WANT to duplicate it...) Most times an officer who is in more than one firefight gets benched no matter how righteous the shoots were. Perception and PC have to be taken into consideration, you know...



mr wayne has it 100%. tac reloads are hard to do under normal conditions. i have really big hands and practiced them for a while. i'd still screw up every once in a while.



The TR isn't all bad for all people in all situations. I just have found that I usually end up grabbing the magazines wrong and fumbling with them more than I do on a normal reload. I have even dropped a mag a time or two when trying to insert the fresh one with a bad grip. Now that is a truly bad situation. My old mag is gone, and now my new magazine is on the ground too. In a real fight it is probably dark and I am probably half blind and half deaf from the shots going off....

Just not a good time to do something I am the tiniest bit unsure about.



Unless you've got a lot of high stress experience (read: special ops) your fine motor skills will leave not only the building, but the whole continent. regardless of how many reps you've done.



Not true. There is a reason you repeat something over and over and over again. It is to program your system with the correct response to that stimulus. This is the method that special ops guys use to program themselves. They train and train and train, and when that is over, they train some more. Then when they have to do it for real they go purely on instinct.

I have known special forces type guys that have never had to pull a trigger in anger, and some ordinary street cops that have had to kill to save themselves, sometimes even after being seriously wounded.

The ordinary patrol cop with a .32 caliber slug in his lung and three men coming out of a vehicle to finish him off understands stress. In this moment as he is reeling from the shock of being shot, when he instinctively draws his sidearm, focuses the front sight on center mass of the lead bad guy and carefully pulls the trigger to make a solid hit, he is doing it out of sheer instinct. He isn't thinking about the mechanics of operating his weapon, merely that he needs to stop the threat.



why do you think EVERY cop looks rediculous on the tape the dashboard camera caught the shootout with. are they ALL barney fife? they POINT the gun and pull the trigger as fast as they can.



Not all. I have seen a couple dashcam videos of fellows delivering deadly accurate fire even with very little formal training time. Some people have an ability to think clearly under fire that they have developed through careful planning of what they are going to do if...

The simple fact is that gunfights suck, and those moments where people are shooting at you are unpredictable as hell. Training helps to ensure you will do the proper thing, but even then there are no guarantees. No battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy...



there are probably a few dozen guys on this board who have been on the wrong end of a firefight. here's a question (poll) for the general forum:

who here has done a tactical reload under fire?




Well firstly you are not supposed to do a TR under fire. You are supposed to do them during a "lull". But my point is that it can sometimes be mighty hard to figure out when you are in a lull that is safe enough to risk fumbling with magazines, unless of course the coroner is already there picking up the lifeless body of your assailant.

A TR should only be done if you are pretty convinced the fight is over, or if you feel there is plenty of time before the hostilities resume. (In which case you are better served by getting the hell away from there...) It is a just in case measure. But IDPA and others stress it beyond that point, which is a bone of contention.

Even if the fight is over there is no guarantee you will be able to do a TR. Once the immediate threat is over, there are the results of having just faced death. The shakes, the vomiting, even passing out are not uncommon reactions to such extreme stress. This is why simunitions are such wonderful tools, because they teach you all this stuff before you actually get in a real fight.

I am sure there are people on this board who have been in a real fight, but that doesn't necessarily make someone an expert. No two gunfights are the same, and what they did might have been just fine to help them survive that situation, but could get them killed in another one.

The best bet is to be prepared for anything.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:17:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Since those that advocate the TR or RWR have been accused of being nothing more than armchair commandos or gamers, I'd like to know the qualifications of the accusers.



Don't hold your breath.

The TR is not a bad tactic or idea in itself. My concern is the misapplication of the tactic by well meaning people can lead to trouble. The TR in it's truest form is done at a sane pace when you are pretty sure the fight is over, IF you have enough manual dexterity left to do it. If you feel that hostilities could resume any second, then you are better off just forgetting about the old magazine and putting a new one ASAP.

Fights are fluid situations that change from nanosecond to nanosecond, especially gunfights. Thus it makes sense for us to have lots of tools in our arsenal of responses, but to have a good understanding of when each tool is advantageous.

The TR is not advantageous in many situations. But the speed reload doesn't have much advantage to it if you are calm, collected, behind cover and the threat is laying on the ground calling for his mother.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:44:49 AM EST
I shoot a lot of IPSC, and so speed reloads come naturally to me. I shoot IDPA occassionally too, and am competent with the TR and RWR also. You play by whatever rules the GAME dictates. I think people are just kidding themselves if they think either of these sports are accurate simulations of what happens on the street. I prefer IPSC because it places greater emphasis on speed and mobility than on accuracy, which is much more appropriate given the short ranges of a typical civilian altercation. The excessive emphasis on accuracy in IDPA is artificial, IMHO (without commenting on the motives behind that emphasis).

Frankly, having a partially expended mag in close proximity to a fully loaded one during the TR (and even the RWR) is very risky. I am haunted by the story of the (NY?) cop who was trained by his range officer to dump empties into his hand to keep the range clean and then, under the stress of a gunfight, reloaded those EMPTY cases back into his revolver... he died !

in any case, for me this is a moot point. As a civilian, I see the chances of needing spare ammo as being so small that I choose not to carry any.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:52:58 AM EST
All these replies are way too long. I'll wait for the movie to come out.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:00:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:20:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:21:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:38:25 AM EST
I don't know about IDPA or IPSC but a tactical reload should never be done with an empty weapon. If you do not have one in the chamber, you are wrong. The full mag should be drawn before the empty is released. Then you release the empty and take it in the same hand as the full and then insert the full magazine. Stash the empty anywhere. In live fires, I always stash them down the top of my shirt. If I have my dump pouch, I use it. Your trigger finger should never leave the trigger during any of this. That way 1) you have at least one round for surprises 2) your trigger finger is in a loaction to discharge the round if need be. Also never shift your strong hand to hit the slide release, use your weak hand.hug.gif
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:43:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Your kidding right? I think you already know that you are accountable for every round fired. You may be able to miss fast enough in the shooting sports, but I don't think the same goes on the street.



+1000

You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Hits, and good ones at that, are all that count.

Some people think "He's so close I can't miss!"

These people have no clue. I have seen I don't know how many video tapes of cops with a threat mere feet away empty a hicap 9mm pistol at the threat without ever getting a bullet on target.

The correct response is "He's so close I had better not miss."

If a guy is 20 yards away from me, I have some breathing room. But if he is 10 feet away, I had better stop him and stop him right now. The only way to do this is by actually connecting with my shots.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:11:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 8:12:42 AM EST by StealthyBlagga]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Your kidding right? I think you already know that you are accountable for every round fired. You may be able to miss fast enough in the shooting sports, but I don't think the same goes on the street.



I assume you don't shoot IPSC seriously... the whole "shoot fast enough to miss" is mythological BS. You can't win IPSC by missing fast, and top competitors rarely miss.

My point is that IPSC teaches you to shoot as fast as possible consistent with getting the hits you need. Watching IDPA, I see competitors taking way too much time to ensure they keep all their shots in that center circle, and they rarely can do so while moving to cover. The time penalty for a peripheral hit in IDPA is unrealistically heavy.

IPSC teaches better gun handling skills than IDPA, thats why I prefer it. Its also way more fun.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:47:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:05:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
You not only need to minimize the time that your gun doesn't have a magaizine in it, but also the amount of time you don't have 2 hands on the gun.




Ditto. Applicable to game and street.

Thanks guys for all the input. Good discussion

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 8:16:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 8:17:48 AM EST by Backstop]
Well here's what I do when shooting IDPA:

I reload where and when I think I need to.

If the stage requires a downloaded mag (4 rounds or something), I'll usually shoot to the COF then.

But 99% of the time, I shoot the COF like a real world gunfight. Or at least try to. And yes, I get Procedurals. Shrugs..oh well. I'm not concerned with my overall times, and just try to use the match as training. I shoot TexasTactical's matches, and he and the ROs are cool. But as I've heard, in some places I would get the boot.

Reminds me of the time I quickly backed up behind cover (wall) to reload and slammed into the RO. HAHA! Almost went down that time.

Holding a full mag and dropping the spent mag into the same hand doesn't work for me - guess I'm just not coordinated enough.

Sort of OT:
The other thing to consider is if you're out in the woods, just passing through, etc and you shoot to slide lock, are you gonna let the empty mag hit the ground and leave it? Better not; keep doing that and you'll soon run out of mags.

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