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Posted: 7/8/2005 11:02:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 12:11:18 PM EDT by BeetleBailey]
I've been researching and brainstorming for a little while as I have been under the gun so to speak to upgrade from my piss-poor collection of three handguns.

INFORMED DECISIONS ONLY please

Which of these are the best all-around - for fit, finish, reliability, etc. but mostly with a big consideration of price?

Seriously, this is a big decision for me, so please don't vote if you are only familiar with one out of them all or whatever.

ETA: Actually for more detail of my reason for this poll, this was my email to a friend here recently when I first started looking:

"I wanted to ask you a little bit about the XD. I am looking at purchasing a "real handgun" now that I have acquired the Makarov and become comfortable with it (along with my .38 and cheap .45), and since I need one for bedside security. (I put up my shotgun because it may be a little too easy for little hands to find whenever my sibling-in-laws are around like they have been lately). Since I was sort of impressed with your XD I've been looking at them along with Glocks and a couple others. I have found a place that stocks the green 40cal XDs for $369 (after tax also I believe), and was wondering what you thought of that. Also, I can get a Springfield 1911 for $399, but the polymer frames of the XD/Glock is a bit more appealing for CCW purposes. Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 11:20:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 11:23:37 AM EDT by viper5194]
Ive owned a Glock, Springfield Xd, and several HK USPs and out of them all the only one never to have a failure of some type was the HK.. Out of 6 USP's none have had FTF, FTE or KB's ....They eat any type of ammo you throw at them with the exception of full lead unjacketed bullets, and they are accurate... I still own a XD-9 sc only because i use it as my CCW ... Its size and weight are why i chose to use it for CCW, although if I could afford, id be carrying a HK P2000SK . I have however experiance both FTF and FTE with it. Why i have no idea, it seems random, but it has happened.. The HK's finish alone is reason enough to pick it over the others. The HE finish is one of the toughest out there.. The HKs seem to fit my hand alot better too... i had a G22 and couldnt get used to the way it felt... My HK's seem natural, not to mention the manual safety they use. theres no thinking, "what if " - with an HK... ... You can alos buy a nice like new USP for 500-600.00, maybe less....


JMO....
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 11:26:41 AM EDT

Awesome - that's the type of feedback that I was looking for. Thank you very much.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 11:40:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 11:40:48 AM EDT by HardShell]
BB, I've shot polymer-framed versions of all of the above at least once & the only one on your list I presently own is a Glock... and I own 6 of those.

Out of curiosity, what caliber are you wanting?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 11:56:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 11:57:55 AM EDT by BeetleBailey]

Originally Posted By HardShell:
BB, I've shot polymer-framed versions of all of the above at least once & the only one on your list I presently own is a Glock... and I own 6 of those.

Out of curiosity, what caliber are you wanting?



So what was your vote and why?

I was leaning towards 40cal since it seems good enough for our FBI/SS. Though the cheapness of 9mm is always a plus but there's the weakness factor, and the the knock-down power of 45 is good as well but close to overkill on size for carrying.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 12:09:33 PM EDT
I have an HK USPc40 and a Glock 22.

I prefer the HK's user interface and observable quality.

Both, however, have functioned flawlessly.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 12:14:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 12:21:21 PM EDT by HardShell]
Well, I voted Glock because it's my preference - which of course does not mean it'll be right for you.

Your preference of .40S&W may be a reason to look elsewhere... or not. Most of the major Glock problems have involved the .40 models, but we both know people who have had zero problems after years of use.

All of my Glocks are either 9mm or .45ACP (3 each, in fact). I think the G30 has a great balance of size (small enough to conceal well) and power (10+1 of .45)...



... but you & I both know about Mike's G30 kaboom, so .

If you'd like, I'll be glad bring my G30 to the shoot next weekend so you can try it out.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 12:17:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 12:18:17 PM EDT by BeetleBailey]

Originally Posted By HardShell:
Well, I voted Glock because it's my preference - which of course does not mean it'll be right for you.

Your preference of .40S&W may be a reason to look elsewhere... or not. Most of the major Glock problems have involved the .40 models, but we both know people who have had zero problems after years of use.

All of my Glocks are either 9mm or .45ACP (3 each, in fact). I think the G30 has a great balance of size (small enough to conceal well) and power (10+1 of .45)... but you & I both know about Mike's G30 kaboom, so .

If you'd like, I'll be glad bring my G30 to the shoot next weekend so you can try it out.



I would just tell you to bring them all, but you'd probably want me to split the cost of the U-Haul, huh?

(Thanks)
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 12:38:05 PM EDT
GLOCK .....
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:13:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 1:16:13 PM EDT by scrum]
I loved my HK USPs but they were a pain to get a good holster for. I sold them for a nice profit and bought a couple of Glocks. They don't feel as nice, but the trigger on the USP is no peach either. I really like the P2000SK but bang for buck right now the Glock won due to my budget. If something breaks on the Glock, it's fixed in 5-10 minutes rather than sending the HK to the armorer, but I expect the HK to break less frequently, so that probably rubs out in the end. I have owned the USP 9 & 40, USPc 9, and Glock 19 and 23. I honestly trusted them all and shot them all well.

I didn't like the feel shooting the XD series. It just didn't work for me. Nothing wrong with it though.

I have shot the Walther P99 and liked it, but mags and holsters aren't readily available, so I passed.

I have not tried the CZ polymers. The CZ75 was a nice pistol. Almost as nice to shoot as my old HiPower, but that doesn't mean squat for the new stuff.

ETA: If you haven't tried one and can (and it fits your budget) try the Kahrs too. They shoot well and are really concealable. Worth looking at. I keep debating if one will be my next 9mm for summer carry.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:14:55 PM EDT
HK, simply because they did it first, and they got it right.

No company has yet to come close.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:19:57 PM EDT

Thank you for that insight, Scrum. I shot an XD once and liked it, but I haven't really shot many others for comparison.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:31:13 PM EDT
I have shot and owned all of them except for the CZ, and I have to say, HK takes the crown, no doubt about it. Marksman14 pretty much sums it up.

I do use a glock30 for a CCW, but I plan on replacing that as soon as I can get a USP compact that I like. I have a XD sub-compact in 40 S&W, and it is a great shooting little pistol, but I carry the glock 30, cause its a new addition.

My HK collection consists of a Mk. 23 SOCOM, USP 45 Tactical, and a USP in 9mm. I wouldnt even consider trading any one of them for 1,000 glocks. The trigger is much better than the others IMO, I shoot them better, and they fit my hand better. Just a little hard to conceal (I carry the USP 9mm in the winter though, easier to conceal with the clothes I wear that time of year).


BTW, How come there is no option for a Sigma or Ruger?

Link Posted: 7/8/2005 1:38:16 PM EDT
Glock.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 2:46:46 PM EDT
I've owned both and even though the Glock fits me better and I like it more I can't fool myself into thinking it's the 'better' gun. HK just is too high quality.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:45:40 PM EDT
I can't comment on anything but the Walther P-99 which I own. The gun has performed flawlessly for me and is my CCW. One of the pro's for this handgun is the interchangable backstraps. Fit and finish is great on my handgun. Mine is chambered in .40S&W.

BTW, James Bond can't be wrong!
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:30:29 PM EDT
for the money, EAA witness, hands down. great pistol, awesome price, check CDNN investments
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:48:15 PM EDT
just a reminder that the USP fullsize and compacts had very different handling qualities for me. The USP compact fit my medium hand better. I wound up selling the .45C, but that was more because I wanted to pick up a higher penetrating pistol than 45 super.

The USP compact is very well made and handles well. I don't have any experience with glock, but am on the casual lookout for the right 10mm.

Wish that some idiot would come out with a current production run of an autoloader that would digest hard cast .357 magnum.

Dammit.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:50:13 PM EDT
glock but everyone has there own opinion/preferrence
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:57:07 PM EDT
Although I know Glock will win, I vote H&K.

I like the heavier slide, the barrel manufacturing methods, better operational options in both the safety and the firing method, and model variances in the H&K's.

I like how Glock has cheap high capacity magazines, cheap gun prices, and super easy take down.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 2:35:39 PM EDT
What, no Kahr? Switched from Glock 27 to Kahr PM40 - very happy with the size and weight.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 2:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2005 2:55:45 PM EDT by rebel13]
Sorry but a couple were not mentioned and if you aren't considering them, it's cool.

I personally like handguns with hammers so you can do DA/SA shooting.

The 2 I would look at is the Sig Pro and the Fabrique Nationale FNP-9.

I was going to buy the sig, $429, but I tried the FN and it is beutiful.

Fits my hand well (small hands), has 2 backstrap grip choices, exposed hammer with a 3.5 lb pull FACTORY trigger on SA! Veeeeeeeerrryyy smooooooooooooooth!

Fit and finish is excellent.

10 rd and 16 rd mags available.

Made in the USA.

Full length metal guide rod.

And I got it for $275 NIB with (2) 10 rd mags and 2 backstraps.

Good luck as I am sure with all the choices given you can't go wrong!

Rebel13

PS - Marksman, you going to the July 17 shoot? I'll be there with the FN if you want to try it. But remeber, it costs alot less than the H&K!!!
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 3:15:44 PM EDT


Forgot to mention...

Its the TAN series of HK's that are the best

HK USP Tactical w/UTL in Tan format.

My personal favorite as a hardcore range commando
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 3:36:39 PM EDT
glock

Link Posted: 7/9/2005 3:38:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:

Originally Posted By HardShell:
BB, I've shot polymer-framed versions of all of the above at least once & the only one on your list I presently own is a Glock... and I own 6 of those.

Out of curiosity, what caliber are you wanting?



So what was your vote and why?

I was leaning towards 40cal since it seems good enough for our FBI/SS. Though the cheapness of 9mm is always a plus but there's the weakness factor, and the the knock-down power of 45 is good as well but close to overkill on size for carrying.



Actually, I thought SS used .357 SIG, correct me if I am wrong. Every real ballistic test I've seen (Fackler and similar) suggests that all pistol calibers are pretty inadequate, just get what you can hit with and train to get as many hits to vital anatomical areas as possible. My rule would be to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat, no matter what caliber I was using. I'll admit I like the history and the idea of the .45, but I'd get what I can shoot most effectively and what presents the least logistical problem for me. I personally like both Glocks and 1911's (Both fit me and work for me quite well) and I have nothing negative to say for HK's other than they don't fit my hands too well. Believe it or not, full-size Beretta 92's seem to fit my hands perfectly (WTF ?). I don't know much about the XD other than some people swear by them, some people hate them. SW Sigmas, same deal, they say the older models of those really sucked, but some shooters say the newer Sigmas are alright. I do admit the Sigma feels decent in my hands, though, reminds me of a USP with a slightly better grip shape/checkering. Most of the big brand-name pistols out there work like they're supposed to, it's a individual's preference.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 4:00:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2005 4:01:26 PM EDT by Colt_SBR]
Glock

Colt_SBR
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 5:35:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 5:40:24 PM EDT
You forgot Kahr in your poll
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 7:14:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
While many of you know me to be a die in the wool hardcore 1911 fan I'd have to go Glock 17 if a polymer pistol was the choice of the day. With Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr +P+ ammo of corse.



Hey! I resemble that remark! Except I use a 26.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 10:29:37 PM EDT
BB,

May I ask why you excluded the CZ-75B?

Justin
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 12:03:40 AM EDT
I think it is because he is only asking about polymer framed pistols. Maybe I am wrong but I do not think the 75B comes in a polymer frame. I love CZs and if the CZ polymer gun came in .45 I would get one my self.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 6:25:51 AM EDT
Glock
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 7:15:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:
I think it is because he is only asking about polymer framed pistols. Maybe I am wrong but I do not think the 75B comes in a polymer frame. I love CZs and if the CZ polymer gun came in .45 I would get one my self.



I know that. I guess you can say I'm asking why he thinks the CZ-75B is not as good as the others?
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 8:08:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2005 8:08:39 AM EDT by Rose]
"best all-around - for fit, finish, reliability, etc. but mostly with a big consideration of price?"

You just described a GLOCK. That's why sooo many LE agencies choose GLOCK. They just plain work (in part due to their amazing simplicity) and they don't break the bank. Take price out of the equation and maybe something else is tops. Seems like some of the posted remarks forgot about price. HKs are an easy $200+ more than a GLOCK (AFAIK) and don't forget GLOCK mags are less than $20 NIW and can be found everywhere. I like having lots of mags so that really matters to me.

I like 9mm (especially if economics is a concern). JHP bullet design has come a long way and practice fodder is cheap.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 9:26:12 AM EDT
My frame of reference: Glock 17 w/>30K, USP 45 w/<1K

While I am enjoying my new USP, I still feel that the Glock is the most durable, reliable pistol available at any price. The design of the gun also happens to be extremely conducive to rapid, accurate fire. The parts and accessories are not cost prohibitive, further strengthening the appeal.

The only gun purchase that I regret is the XD, my very first gun.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 9:39:19 AM EDT



The only gun purchase that I regret is the XD, my very first gun.



Can you elaborate as to why?
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 9:55:15 AM EDT
GLOCK!
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 10:15:16 AM EDT
SIG 2009 series!
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 10:52:53 AM EDT
I voted for Glock but didn't read the "emphasis on price" part.

With that considered, CZ TT (9mm or 45 ACP) or Styer M or S series (9mm or .40). Cdnninvestments has them for around $260-270

And a big + for Sig Pro SP2009/SP2340, a true underdog of a pistol, around $400 shipped or even less brand new (check Sigforum.com)

Or one of the CDNN CPO Sig 22X series, around $380-400.

Hope this helped. Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 10:55:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2005 11:08:52 AM EDT by Graziani]
Onpointfirearms has used Sig Pros at $339

ETA:

My personal experience with Styer M40 and S9 is very positive. It's exactly the same as Glock but the trigger reset is even shorter than Glock, being more crisp and easier to Mozambique. Recoil was about same as Glock.

CZ TT I have never fired, but I'll add to my collection next year or when I have some money around.

Sig Pro 9mm shoots like a dream. My brother can shoot real accurate with it, but alas, Glock trigger has ruined my trigger finger and I jerk in SA. DA, however, is very good, I love it. Special government contract models have manual safety that allows cocked and locked carry. Like 22X series Sigs, it's little "fat" on the side and prints somewhat. Mags cost $11-18

Glock 17 is very dependable and even some cheap ammo jams up, it's very easy to extract the malfunctioning round. Very light and holds enough Gold Dots. It can also be made to shoot underwater Glock 19 is more concealable. Mags cost $17

I've shot 226 and the single action was even lighter than Sig Pro so I jerked my hand even more. Double action was heavy and I was bad at it.

I've shot HK USP9 fullsize and it was a very good pistol. Cocked and locked is possible. If only it was cheap I would get one.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 11:38:20 AM EDT
BeetleBailey,
The internal extractor on my XD was not reliable, causing frustrating stoppages. Imagine trying to learn how to shoot with a gun that doesn't work. It's not confidence inspiring. Ever since my experience with the XD, I very much prefer guns with external extractors, even to the extent of prefering them on 1911s. I sold the gun to litework, and I think he sent it in to Springfield and got it fixed. This was two years ago though, so my comments may not necessarily be applicable to current XDs. Many owners seem to be satisfied with theirs.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 11:48:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2005 11:55:53 AM EDT by Rocky9_5]
I vote for HK. Had my USP for 12 years with no problems. For CCW I would pick the P2000. How much is your life worth to ya? Glocks are decent guns too, but the lack of safety kept me from em.
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 10:22:03 PM EDT
Glock of coarse....
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 6:00:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2005 6:00:19 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Glock of coarse....



They're not that rough...
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 3:34:16 PM EDT
To me the biggest issue still is how it fits in your hand. I don't like Glocks, for example. Not that I think negatively about them: actually as an objective judgement for the intended purpose I consider themk the best. They just don't fit my hand and wrist design well. Maybe I'm a mutant, but they are frightfully uncomfortable to grip and use. For personal protection, the important issue is they go bang every time. A friend of mine is a cop in the Bronx, and he carries one. That's a good recommendation to me. But, I don't have one because it doesn't feel right and doesn't point right FOR ME.

Pick one of the good brands that feels right. I feel that a SIG, HK or Glock will all be reliable ONCE YOU TEST THEM WITH 200 RDS of FACTORY AMMUNITION.

What do I use? For carry, it's a Kel-Tec P40. It goes bang, and hasn't FTF'd or FTE'd yet, except for a FTF in the first 50 rounds, which I'll allow any pistol. Since then, perfect. No, it's not a range gun, which would handle thousands of rounds. Not intended to be. I have 200 rounds through it and am confident with it. Since I'm n ot a police officer, I don't have to worry about anything but an up close, personal encounter (and, I'll run if I don't have my wife with me and have a safe way of showing them how fast an old guy can run). One .40 Magsafe in the belly will stop anything I can't get away from. I know my Kel-Tec will do that. It's a DAO, hammer pistol.

If I know or suspect there may be problems, my "main" weapon is a Browning Hi-Power in .40. It will do the job, is p[erfectly reliable, and is such a natural pointer (the whole point of my first paragraph) that it almost doesn't need sights.

Bottom line, get something that fits your hand and your purpose.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 3:41:00 PM EDT
I have Sigs, HKs, Glocks, 1911s, XDs, Walthers, CZs, TZs, etc. In short I have or have had at least one of everything. The ONLY pistols that have had ZERO problems of any kind are the HKs. They are flat out the best pistol made. Putting price into the equation though I would have to recommend the Sig Pro series. These are probably the most under rated pistol I own.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 8:10:53 PM EDT
I have a G17 that's 12 years old, still solid as a rock. I'm the third owner that I know of.
I have a HK USPc 40. Second owner, ran 100 rounds of ball through it the other day, no issues. Previous owner said 300 rounds no problems.
I think all the guns you listed are solid choices. I'm not very familiar with CZ's or Walther's though. You need to handle them, shoot them if you can. If they're still equal, decide based on features.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 3:55:10 AM EDT
I have a G19 and an HK USP 45F. Both are great guns. I realize a G19 and a USP45f are not a good comparison, but I think as a general rule. Glocks are not as blocky as the HKs. For just plain shooting I prefer the HK though. For concealed carry, a G19 with 15+1 is easy to hide. As others have said, you can't go wrong with any of the reputable makers. Just try them out in your hands and if possible, shoot them, then pick which feels best to you.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:20:48 AM EDT
My glock 26 has been wonderful. UNFORTUNATELY I sold my Steyr S9 to afford a slightly smaller gun for whenever WI gets conceal carry.

The steyr M9 and S9 are simply amazing handguns! I will probably buy there new full size version in 9mm when I have the money.
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 5:24:51 AM EDT
B2
your pursuit is commendable, but will likely only get a snapshot of what people own, and therefore result in a 'popularity contest'



But those are quite interesting as well

HK by the way
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 10:25:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2005 10:29:10 AM EDT by hoosierdaddy]
Glock would be most popular and IMHO, HK would be the best out of the box polymer framed handgun. The HK just has all of what I'm looking for in a pistol and perfoems with all ammo that I've fed it.
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