I picked up a Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm for my first handgun when I turned 21, mostly b/c it was cheap as hell and I just wanted to get a pistol. After running about a 1000 rds through it Ive really started to like the gun, except for the trigger pull which is a little rough. I was wondering if anyone out there who owned one felt the same way, and likes the feel and performance of the gun.  I know that this series has taken a lot of heat from Glock, and the Glock advocates, but the Sigma seems to be somewhat promising.  Although, I would definetly take a Sig P226 over both Glock and Sigma, I was wondering what the round life of these Sigma pistols is?  Also, is this gun a good investment performance wise compared to the price?    

POS.  Only good thing is the lifetime warranty, which my department has used, despite in-house armorer, because of frame breakage.  Lots of small parts breakage, especially springs.  There's a reason they've gone through several iterations of this thing.  Maybe the newest models have more bugs worked out.

No, it's not a good investment, per se.

But it is a suitable handgun for personal defense and plinking.  It's probably even suitable for duty carry, but no one will recommend it.

The Sigma has become the ugly red headed step child of combat pistols.  Nobody likes it.  Nobody wants it.

It's still a better defence than throwing $300 cash at the bad guy

Service life?  dunno.  I don't think anyone has kept one long enough to find out.  

ETA: The two best 9mm's I've ever owned were my Beretta 92's and my P226

Lazer80, My friend has a sigma and the trigger pull is around 12lbs Im not sure how good they hold up though, the sig 226 is king!  The springfield XD is an option and many on the EE board.

Yea when I first got it, I didnt like it much at all.  Trigger pull is way to heavy.  Im definetly afraid the first time I drop it on a solid surface the frame is gonna crack.  But I take it out and shoot it at things when were shootin rabbits and coyotes.  I mostly let my cousin carry it when we go out, since he isnt 21 yet.  Im saving up to get a Sig 226.  Appreciate yalls advice

A friend of mine owns a Sigma .40 & she loves it. I've seen her shoot it & it never jams. As for trigger pull, a bit lighter spring should cure that right up. They're decent guns for the $$$, certainly they're no H&K but they cost half as much.


My .o2

I bought one recently for a carry weapon and other than the trigger I like it. The trigger really sucks.

I carried a .40 for duty and never experianced a problem with ftf but everyone else did. What I did experiance was wear over time. Extracrors do wear, but not in 1000 rounds! accuracy went downhill too. We keep our targets on file and over the 8 years we carried Sigmas, the patternsgot larger, like WAY larger, and most full timers never fired theirs except to qualify. Mine went fron 2.5 inches when new to over 4 inches at 20 yards.
Don't get me wrong. I loved the feel of it and the natural way it pointed. I just couldn't get it to hit what it pointed at. With all the ftf's we had our motto became Halt, or I might shoot.
If your going to keep it, clean the hell out of it every time you shoot it and don't shoot it too much.

Yeah, I got one too. A SW9V. The one with the stainless slide. I baught it back in '97. I think it was one of the first models. I paid a total of $304. As previously stated, accuracy leaves a little to be desired. The main problem I had was that while firing, the ejected brass would be expelled right back onto my head, down the back of my shirt, into my lip once. I recently corrected that problem with a jeweler's file by putting the right side angle on it. I will agree that it does feel good in your hand. For a handgun that no one wants, why are hi-cap mags so hard to find. I got 2 of them about 2 years ago from CDNN Investments for about $80 each. The only ones I see now are for the .40 cal model.

ETA-I miss my SW Mod 915

I love the feeling of the grip, I have noticed that mine does spit brass in a bunch of different directions.  I dont think I will ever buy another one though.

The current generation is supposed to have made some improvements in the design.   You won't win any bullseye matches with it, but it isn't intended for that.  It's supposed to have a better factory trigger, however, this isn't a Performance Center gun.   But if the trigger bothers you, get a trigger job.  


A lot of the Sigma'a bad rap comes from some problems with the first generation and its price point.  It's easy to want to beat up on the cheap guns, much like auto enthusiasts beat up on cheap cars.   And much like cars you wont get the fit and finish of a Mercedes at Hundai pricing.  But in the end you'll still get where you want to go.  

Quoted: I happen to think the M39 and the Sigma have the two best handgun grip angles and designs I have ever seen. Other than that, I cannot find much good to say about the Sigma...or the M39 for that matter!...I will say that the very latest guns are supposedly "better" than the older ones, but I will never own another.

I have both a M39-2 and a SW40VE and they have great ergonomics.  Both gun are the improved versions of the first 39 and Sigma and are 100% reliable.

For the Sigma, just put 500 round through it and dry fire it and the trigger will lighten up and smooth out.  100% reliablity is the most important thing about a gun you need to save your life with.  Everything else is just practice and that it points well for you.  The ergonomics are what makes the guns point so well for me.  Just my 2c.  Srigs

I had a S&W40F and what a royal POS that gun was... I bought in new and it may have lasted for about 1000-rounds... perhaps as few as 700 and the frame started splitting front to back...

S&W replaced it with a new gun (had to do the wold transfer bit again with fees) but I sold that replacement in it's NIB condition as soon as I could dump it...

Worst gun I ever owned... bar none!

I switched to glocks... much better gun and the plastic doesn't split!

Don't listen to em,  lol.  I have a brand new SW40VE and love it. Cept the damned trigger pull but that's ok, one day a kit will come out to fix that.  It's my second sigma, and I've loved them both.  Here's the background on sigmas.  Early-mid 90's they came out with a glock.  2 part trigger, rectangular slide and firing pin, other stuff too.  You could actually put a glock barrel in a sigma and it'd shoot fine.  We'll Glock got their thong in a wad because here was a gun that in a few years would be as good as theirs and half the prixe.  So they sued SnW's ass off.  And won.  Oddly enough the trigger was not an issue and they were allowed to keep it.  But they had to change so much of the inside, that the post lawsuit sigma's made good paperweights and that's it.  Few year's later, the brady ban is over, Smith decides they want to fix it and about 2 years ago(could be one could be 3 I'm not sure) they came back out with a new one, that except for the trigger were great.  I shoot uspsa with mine and have put over 4 thousand rounds through it in the past 3 months.  I've had 2 FTE's , they were 2 rounds in a row and I'd shot over 500 rounds in the previous hour or so, it was over 100 degrees and I was tired and could have been limpwristing.  The explanation I got was that since it was so damned hot, as soon as the brass hit the chamber, it was expanding, and that combined with me having shot so much, I had a dirty extractor so it was sticky and the that let the extractor "ride the dirt" so to speak and leave the brass there.  

Now if that's a line of BS.  Read closely.  That was the explanation I got.  Not what I said happened.  Either way,  only 2 failures out of 4000 rounds passes The FBI test of one in a thousand and for them to happen back to back,  I don't think it was the gun.   I love mine,  I love the grip angle (someone else said that,  it's 18 degrees, same as a 1911) and the feel.  Even with a 15 round mag loaded with Rangers, and one in the pipe it's light enough that I can keep it in an uncle mike's retention strap, inside the pants holster while wearing athletic shorts or even pajama pants if they are tied.  Show me a 1911 I could do that with and I'll buy it.  I love 1911's and part of me is old fashiond and wants a steel gun, but plastic (sorry POLYMER for all the Glock guys) is light.  I'd have to have some sort of catastrophic failure to change my mind about them.

Quoted: Here's the background on sigmas...

The Brady Ban? I have always wanted that bunch banned!

Quoted: No, it's not a good investment, per se. But it is a suitable handgun for personal defense and plinking.  It's probably even suitable for duty carry, but no one will recommend it. The Sigma has become the ugly red headed step child of combat pistols.  Nobody likes it.  Nobody wants it. It's still a better defence than throwing $300 cash at the bad guy Service life?  dunno.  I don't think anyone has kept one long enough to find out.   ETA: The two best 9mm's I've ever owned were my Beretta 92's and my P226

+1

We got used sigma's by the buttload when the JC police went to HK's. Had to give the sigmas away to move them. Forget about it as an investment piece. The triggers suck. But it will shoot so I guess it's better than nothing.

I put a person 6 feet under with my Sigma. Good gun as far as I'm concerned. Saved my life.

Well i finally found someone to buy the ole sigma, and I picked up a kimber stainless tle/II...i love the 1911's...sigma wasnt bad for a first purchase...i dunno if that thing would last 4000 rds tho    

Quoted: Don't listen to em,  lol.  I have a brand new SW40VE and love it. Cept the damned trigger pull but that's ok, one day a kit will come out to fix that.  It's my second sigma, and I've loved them both.  Here's the background on sigmas.  Early-mid 90's they came out with a glock.  2 part trigger, rectangular slide and firing pin, other stuff too.  You could actually put a glock barrel in a sigma and it'd shoot fine.  We'll Glock got their thong in a wad because here was a gun that in a few years would be as good as theirs and half the prixe.  So they sued SnW's ass off.  And won.  Oddly enough the trigger was not an issue and they were allowed to keep it.  But they had to change so much of the inside, that the post lawsuit sigma's made good paperweights and that's it.  Few year's later, the brady ban is over, Smith decides they want to fix it and about 2 years ago(could be one could be 3 I'm not sure) they came back out with a new one, that except for the trigger were great.  I shoot uspsa with mine and have put over 4 thousand rounds through it in the past 3 months.  I've had 2 FTE's , they were 2 rounds in a row and I'd shot over 500 rounds in the previous hour or so, it was over 100 degrees and I was tired and could have been limpwristing.  The explanation I got was that since it was so damned hot, as soon as the brass hit the chamber, it was expanding, and that combined with me having shot so much, I had a dirty extractor so it was sticky and the that let the extractor "ride the dirt" so to speak and leave the brass there.   Now if that's a line of BS.  Read closely.  That was the explanation I got.  Not what I said happened.  Either way,  only 2 failures out of 4000 rounds passes The FBI test of one in a thousand and for them to happen back to back,  I don't think it was the gun.   I love mine,  I love the grip angle (someone else said that,  it's 18 degrees, same as a 1911) and the feel.  Even with a 15 round mag loaded with Rangers, and one in the pipe it's light enough that I can keep it in an uncle mike's retention strap, inside the pants holster while wearing athletic shorts or even pajama pants if they are tied.  Show me a 1911 I could do that with and I'll buy it.  I love 1911's and part of me is old fashiond and wants a steel gun, but plastic (sorry POLYMER for all the Glock guys) is light.  I'd have to have some sort of catastrophic failure to change my mind about them.

See al that ^   Don't pay attention.  Get a glock.  I did and I'm never looking back.

Quoted: I picked up a Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm for my first handgun when I turned 21, mostly b/c it was cheap as hell and I just wanted to get a pistol. After running about a 1000 rds through it Ive really started to like the gun, except for the trigger pull which is a little rough. I was wondering if anyone out there who owned one felt the same way, and likes the feel and performance of the gun.  I know that this series has taken a lot of heat from Glock, and the Glock advocates, but the Sigma seems to be somewhat promising.  Although, I would definetly take a Sig P226 over both Glock and Sigma, I was wondering what the round life of these Sigma pistols is?  Also, is this gun a good investment performance wise compared to the price?

I have had three Sigmas.
The first was a (I think) Pre Lawsuit 9mm and it kicked tail it was an awsome gun.
The Second I had was a grey frame and stainless slide only shot about 300 rds through it and thought it was the stuff (only because it only had 300rds through it).
The Third was the exact brother of the second and it had more rounds through it and it was trash and I mean trash. The plastic recoil spring just snaped in half and went flying through my base ment while it was sitting on my work bench. I had a problem with it feedind because it would jam about 5 rounds per mag. I noticed that when the ammo came up it would hit the slide release and lock the slide back so I worked on that and after the gun would run like it should and had a machineist friend make me a custom guide rod I sold it for $200 and yes I told the person I sold it to what had happened but it ran great when I sold it I was just sick of it.

That is why I have never got another. I love the feel of them and I like the shape of the trigger better than my Glocks. You can not beat the price either. However until I see an accuracy report and a few more plus reports on the new ones I guess I am a little shy. I am glad you have one that runs well and shoots good. If it does do not worry about every one elses opinion. You may have got one on made on the best day. Have fun with it and enjoy.

Never a problem for my 40VE. Accuracy leaves a little to be desired but I'm sure a trigger job could help. Keeping it clean too.

Had 2 in the past. An original one and a SW9VE. I'd still have them (and a lot of other guns) if my finances hadn't gone to hell shortly after getting married.

Good pistols. Much better than is given credit to them for. Yeah, trigger pull leaves something to be desired, but beyond that I never had a problem with mine.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/520103904/m/744101096

The trigger mod works! I put 100 rds through my .40 last night without a hitch and instead of 12' patterns I did 6" groups.

I made that post,Hey hey thats a link to my trigger mod.cool

I will never understand why people say the Sigma is a POS.  I had a 9VE (I didn't want to get rid of it but I had to) and it was an extremely reliable gun, I never had a single failure in over 5,000 rounds.  Granted the trigger isn't the greatest but  with a trigger mod the Sigma would be a very good handgun.

Quoted: I made that post,Hey hey thats a link to my trigger mod.cool

http://www.wera.com/graphics/smilies/upthumbs.gif

First off, please read my warnings in the post on the S&W Forum about the trigger mods.  Make your own decision, but S&W did a lot to make the new Enhanced Sigmas what they are today, and you are reverse engineering it with that mod.  For a range gun, fine.  For a defense gun, I wouldn't do it.

But, now for my Sigma history.

It all started years ago when I joined the PD here in town.  We are issued SW40F's (1st Generation, full size .40's), and in fact, they are all still in service after 11+ years with NO problems at all.

I was not happy about being forced to carry a Sigma after hearing about all the problems.  But, I had never even shot one.  After taking it home, I immediately went to the range with 500 rounds of my cast bullet reloads and shot every one of them with no cleaning or lubrication, except for the factory lube.  I was very impressed when I took it home, after eating out center mass on a MA "Q" Target, and not having even a single malfunction.  And, the pistol was DIRTY after all that shooting with cast bullets and Unique powder!  I never had another concern about carrying that pistol and staking my life with it.  In fact, in over 8000 rounds, I experienced one FTE during qualification one time using factory Winchester Ranger SXT 165gr JHP's.  

After that experience, I decided I wanted a newer "Enhanced" Sigma.  So, I bought an SW40VE.  I ran a LOT of ammo through that and never experienced a single failure of any kind.  

Then, I started picking them up whenever I got the chance and the deal was good.  I've had two SW9F's (1st Generation full size 9mm), an SW40V (2nd Generation compact .40S&W), an SW357V (.357 Sig, 2nd Generation, only 800 made) an SW9VE (currently produced 9mm), an SW40G (currently produced green frame, black slide and Trijicon front night sight) and my newest, an SW9GVE.

In all the Sigmas I own or have owned, that one malfunction mentioned above is the ONLY malfunction in tens of thousands of cast bullet reload in both 9mm, .40 and .357sig that I have shot.  That's a pretty good record if you ask me!

I have to admit one problem that I have had with EVERY 1st or 2nd Generation Sigma (anything pre-equipment rail, pre-Enhanced Series) I've owned.  That's the frame cracking problem.  The crack "front to back" is a slight bit of an exaggeration, but they do end up cracking right at the front of the dust cover.  But, that's not a problem.  First, the crack starts up very small, but noticable.  And, it never effects the function of the pistol, as long as you catch it within 500 rounds or so (which you will when you clean it).  So, you just call up S&W, they send you a shipping label, and they replace it with the newest "Enhanced" Series Sigma.  They stand behind their products and NEVER hide from a problem that they recognize and offer to take care of.

Just so someone who doesn't know Sigmas can tell the difference between a "problem" 1st or 2nd Generation gun and a new Enhanced Series, here they are.

1- The most obvious.  ALL Enhanced Sigmas have the equipment rail on the dust cover.  Mine wears a Streamlight M4 for my house gun.  This has also strengthened the front of the frame, and no Enhanced Sigma has been returned to the factory for a cracked frame since.

2- Lowered ejection port to improve ejection and reliability.  It also makes them put the empties into the same area, instead of spraying them all over the range.

3- They changed from the Glock style loose tolerance chisel tip striker system to a close tolerance (everything machined within .002") round striker.  This has completely eliminated any returns to the factory for broken strikers.

4- Completely re-engineered trigger assy to improve reliability.  This did result in a slightly heavier (about 2 pound difference) trigger pull than the older Sigmas.

5- Checkering added to the side of the grip frame.

6- Recontoured slide corners (cosmetic only, and it worked!) and loaded chamber indicator (commonly called the Mass-hole).

Also, I would like to point out something about the Glock/S&W Sigma lawsuit.  There was not a penny exchanged, and Glock did not "win" anything in court.  They came to an out of court agreement which actually had nothing to do with the trigger, although that's what was reported in one of the magazines.  It actually resulted in the machining of .020" off the back of the inside of the slide.  This did not have anything to do with reliability.

The problems with the early Sigmas had more to do with rushed production than it did with anything else.  The management at the time forced the engineers to push up production since they expected to take LE contracts away from Glock.  If they didn't rush, did the proper testing, and made the proper changes, I think they would have had a chance to do that.  At least they learned their lesson from this and are doing the right thing with the new M&P auto!

I would take a Sigma over a Glock any day.  I have owned 4 Glocks in the past, and found the reliability the same as a Sigma, with chambers and barrels which are not safe with reloads and cast bullets and uncomfortable grip angles.  I recently traded for another Glock 22 to give them another chance.  They just don't fit me.  Sigmas do, and accuracy and reliability are just as good.  But, that's just my experience and my personal opinion.  PLEASE, don't turn my comment into a huge debate.  There is good info in this thread, and I don't want a Glock/Sigma debate to ruin that.  They each have their fans, and that's great.




 

Great post Hawgleg!! I bought a Sigma 40VE as first gun and have had one problem it...one of my reloaded rounds got stuck in the barrel; prior to being fired. I have taken a lot of crap over this gun from my friends but it still fires every time I pull the trigger and it is fairly accurate too.

i need to stop commenting on the smegma.but here gos.pos,hard trigger that gets worse to the point that it just wont release!2 AD and i sold it to the local pawn shop for 125.i was glade to get that!
the one and only redeaming quality is the grip.its perfect for my hand(medium).
i know the other 380 sigmas definatly say in the manual that they are limited in round count .i think it was either  3500 or 5000 before they recomended it be sent back for a  new slide or frame or somthing.its meant to be carried or hidden alot and fired very very little.

What got worse about your trigger.  AT about 500 rounds, the trigger pull usually gets worn in and a lot smoother.  By 1000 rounds, it's a huge improvement.

Explain your AD's.  Did the gun just go off, or what happened?  If it did, something was seriously wrong and it should have been sent back to the factory.

Quoted: What got worse about your trigger.  AT about 500 rounds, the trigger pull usually gets worn in and a lot smoother.  By 1000 rounds, it's a huge improvement. Explain your AD's.  Did the gun just go off, or what happened?  If it did, something was seriously wrong and it should have been sent back to the factory.

I put about 1500 rounds through mine the first week I owned it and it never changed.  Everytime I shot it after that I shot at least 500 through it and it never changed.  Guess ya'll are lucky,  My trigger never improved till I traded it for a Glock.  Other than the trigger I loved mine.  Well that and the chamber was to tight and once it got real hot and dirty I'd start to get a lot of FTEs.

I've never had a problem with dirty chambers on any of my Sigmas, either.  I shoot cast bullet reloads in both 9mm and .40 in my Sigmas, using Unique powder (which is only about one step cleaner than black powder!), and I've never had a round stick in the chamber of an Enhanced Sigma.  Just that one FTE in my 1st Generation SW40F.  My shooting sessions are anywhere from 200 to 600 rounds with no cleaning or oiling during the session at all.  

Sounds like you got a real lemon, and I've never heard of any Sigma's trigger mechanism not wearing in and getting smoother after 500 or so rounds.

The SPORTSMANS GUIDE has SIGMA Hi-Caps (16rnd) for $40.

Cheep guns. You get what you pay for. I learned my lesson with the Sigma series. More jams then bullets fired. I sold it and bought an HK.

What caliber, model, generation, etc?  Instead of just "cheap guns", we'd like to hear a little more info.

Sigma 9mm, .40, .380. For whatever reason I was into the Sigma series when I first started shooting. The price of them is prob. the reason. I had two different generations of the Sigma. All I remember is, the 9mm had a smooth grips and my .40 had little bumps on the grips. The .380 was the first model S&W made. Each one of them jammed like crazy. The .380 and the .40 were the worse. This is why I say "cheep" because they are.

All my 1st, 2nd or Enhanced Series Sigmas eat anything I put through them, which is mostly cast bullet reloads with Unique powder.

I wouldn't own a .380 Sigma.  I would have to agree with you when you say "cheap".  And, I might add POS, too.  

Quoted: Mine feeds round nosed .40s just fine.  It is guaranteed to jam on a TCMC. TRG

All you have to do is call the S&W Customer Service line and tell them what's wrong.  They will send you a shipping label, so you don't have to pay shipping to or from the factory, and they will either repair or replace it.

No point is just dealing with a pistol that won't feed.  Sigmas should feed anything you fill the mags with.  All of mine do.

"....I  would take a Sigma over a Glock any day.  I have owned 4 Glocks in the past, and found the reliability the same as a Sigma, with chambers and barrels which are not safe with reloads and cast bullets and uncomfortable grip angles.  I recently traded for another Glock 22 to give them another chance.  They just don't fit me.  Sigmas do, and accuracy and reliability are just as good.  But, that's just my experience and my personal opinion.  PLEASE, don't turn my comment into a huge debate.  There is good info in this thread, and I don't want a Glock/Sigma debate to ruin that.  They each have their fans, and that's great."



 

I completely agree with this assessment.  I have at  times owned 3 Sigmas (of which I still own 2) which never gave me problems as others have experienced.  I used to carry a Glock 23 until the first time I picked up a Sigma.  It fit my hand and my situations better.  This was a first generation and still a prized part of my collection of firearms.  

Edit: The top passage in quotation marks was posted by another member.  I made an error in trying to flag the end of his post so as not to make mine too long.  Sorry..

I owned two first generation 9mm sigma's and carried one for duty.  I put about 2000rds through each one and never had a single malfunction with either one, and they were reasonably accurate.  I got rid of them because both on both pistols the firing pin and spring had to be replaced every 200/250rds. due to breakage!  This happened to a few other's who carried and shot theirs alot as well.  After the 7th time I got tired of it and went with a Glock 17 9mm and 10,000rds later not one single malfunction or parts breakage!  
In their defense, I hear that new "improved" Sigma's are much better quality and alot better trigger pulls.  

Quoted: I owned two first generation 9mm sigma's and carried one for duty.  I put about 2000rds through each one and never had a single malfunction with either one, and they were reasonably accurate.  I got rid of them because both on both pistols the firing pin and spring had to be replaced every 200/250rds. due to breakage!  This happened to a few other's who carried and shot theirs alot as well.  After the 7th time I got tired of it and went with a Glock 17 9mm and 10,000rds later not one single malfunction or parts breakage!   In their defense, I hear that new "improved" Sigma's are much better quality and alot better trigger pulls.

The new Enhanced Sigmas have an entirely redesigned striker system which uses a round, close tolerance (everything machined within .002") striker and I've been told that not a single one has been returned to the factory for a striker breakage since they moved away from the loose tolerance Glock chisel tip striker that NYPD is having such problems with.

But, improving the reliability in other areas also made the trigger pull a little heavier (about two pounds) than the older Sigmas.  But, it's a small price to pay for reliability.