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Posted: 7/24/2009 11:56:36 AM EST
I get a Weigand set up to do extractors. I got Ed Brown HC extractors. I adjusted and installed them. Went to the range today, same exact deal as the undertensioned POS MIM extractor that came out of there.

- Springfield Loaded
- Wilson 47 8 and 7 round magazines
- MecGar magazines
- Winchester Ranger T 230gr, Gold Dot 230gr, Corbon DPX 185gr, Remington Golden Sabre 185gr, Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ

The FMJ was flawless in all magazines with one possible exception noted below.
The only hollow point to make it through an entire magazine was the Golden Sabre in a MecGar (go figure).
Hollowpoints fail every 2 or 3 rounds.
Round looks like it's 1/3 to 1/2 the way out of the magazine and hung up on the ramp. Usually had to drop the mag to clear it.
Had one failure where the slide failed to close. Appeared the extractor didn't grab the round. This might have been an FMJ, not sure.

Seems like I can either take it to a gunsmith or sell it. The latter is more appealing at the moment.

Suggestions?
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 12:10:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 1:27:29 PM EST
Sounds like the extractor still needs adjusting, and possibly the barrel needs to be "throated" a bit What weight of recoil spring are you using?

Don't give up on it yet.
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 5:33:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2009 5:50:49 PM EST by Spook410]
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Sounds like the extractor still needs adjusting, and possibly the barrel needs to be "throated" a bit What weight of recoil spring are you using?

Don't give up on it yet.


Giving up would mean a hunk of springs and bent metal wins. I don't think so. That and I have to admit I like the platform.

It does sound like the extractor is still at fault though now I have to figure out how that can be.
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 9:10:57 PM EST
Spook,
I wanted to tell you....... you were headed down a dead end road with the tensioner bit.... seemed what I was suggesting was being voiced over by others...... geegollygeewallywizz, like that hardly ever happens on Arfcom..... The problem is that your extracter needs to be tuned to run the wider rimmed defensive rounds. I have had experience with this..... Hornady XTP's.

I've never bought an extracter that was tuned. Repeat never... I don't even bother installing until I've hit the shaded areas. I also wided the extracter mouth a fraction of a hair... O'yea.. and Ed Brown is all I buy...... I forget, is this a new 1911 ?? You really need to get yourself some needle files or make friends with your gunsmith and............ maybe he will show you how, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.... If they told everyone how to do something what would they have to do....... I can lead a horse to water... but I can't make him drink.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 8:47:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Spook,
I wanted to tell you....... you were headed down a dead end road with the tensioner bit.... seemed what I was suggesting was being voiced over by others...... geegollygeewallywizz, like that hardly ever happens on Arfcom..... The problem is that your extracter needs to be tuned to run the wider rimmed defensive rounds. I have had experience with this..... Hornady XTP's.
http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/extractor.gif
I've never bought an extracter that was tuned. Repeat never... I don't even bother installing until I've hit the shaded areas. I also wided the extracter mouth a fraction of a hair... O'yea.. and Ed Brown is all I buy...... I forget, is this a new 1911 ?? You really need to get yourself some needle files or make friends with your gunsmith and............ maybe he will show you how, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.... If they told everyone how to do something what would they have to do....... I can lead a horse to water... but I can't make him drink.


I have needle files and while I can't see a difference in the white box FMJ rims and four different SD rounds, I'll try some rounding and polishing on the extractor.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 10:15:39 AM EST
Widen the mouth of extracter just a hair too. You've not been a skeptic any where I haven't already been one too...
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 1:04:10 PM EST
Being a skeptic takes intellectual insight and experience. When I have those on a 1911 platform, *then* I'll think about being skeptical. In the mean time I think I'll just listen and try to learn a thing or two.
Link Posted: 7/26/2009 12:04:41 PM EST
OK.. going to polish the extractor up and widen it a few strokes. It will be a little while before I can get to the range and test it (this is getting expensive).

In the meantime, I've noted that my casings all have a place on the rim that looks a bit abused. This is the same for the older, under tensioned extractor and the new one. Insight?



Link Posted: 7/26/2009 3:59:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/26/2009 4:15:12 PM EST by 1911smith]
That shows that the extractor hook is digging into the case rims... That is exactly why defensive case rims are thicker because of cycling... Defensive rounds tend to be cycled many times before being fired.... This also shows me that your extractor hooks need widening on that side of the rim hook......

Note: As far as the difference between marks on tensioned vereses untentioned extractor marks......... you don't really want me to rub that one in, do you Spook ?
Link Posted: 7/26/2009 4:42:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
I get a Weigand set up to do extractors. I got Ed Brown HC extractors. I adjusted and installed them. Went to the range today, same exact deal as the undertensioned POS MIM extractor that came out of there.

- Springfield Loaded
- Wilson 47 8 and 7 round magazines
- MecGar magazines
- Winchester Ranger T 230gr, Gold Dot 230gr, Corbon DPX 185gr, Remington Golden Sabre 185gr, Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ

The FMJ was flawless in all magazines with one possible exception noted below.
The only hollow point to make it through an entire magazine was the Golden Sabre in a MecGar (go figure).
Hollowpoints fail every 2 or 3 rounds.
Round looks like it's 1/3 to 1/2 the way out of the magazine and hung up on the ramp. Usually had to drop the mag to clear it.
Had one failure where the slide failed to close. Appeared the extractor didn't grab the round. This might have been an FMJ, not sure.

Seems like I can either take it to a gunsmith or sell it. The latter is more appealing at the moment.

Suggestions?


sell it - to me.

Send it back to SA, have them tune it
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 12:32:19 PM EST
I'm continuing to research this and seeing some interesting things. For instance, the ED Brown HC seems a little long. It is riding up on the case and that will cause it to lose tension and/or break early. I looked at my brass and I can see evidence of this. It also makes me believe that the rim marks in the photos above are the ejector. Marks from the extractor on the case slope are opposite the marks on the rim. This is also indicated by the gap between the extractor hook and the breechface. I've read the the minimum is about 0.00625" and can be checked with a 1/16" drill bit. The gap with the Ed Brown HC is about a 3/32" bit or 1.5 times of a 1/16" or about 0.009375. This isn't exact since I'm using drill bits as a gauge, but it's an indication. Finally, when I put an unfired round under the extractor and up against the breech face, the extractor does hit the slope of the case. Apparently this is not unusual as discussed in:

EGW Extractor Discussion

Reference for the 0.00625" clearance:
Brazos Extractor Article (Under Magazine Articles, "Fitting a New Extractor")

So.. I think that after I have needle filed, fine sandpapered, and flitz'd one of the Ed Brown extractors, I'm gong to relieve it so it doesn't hit slope of case. I'm also tempted to try an EGW extractor that is supposed to have a smaller gap, but we'll try this one first.

I know this is contrary to what you were saying 1911smith in opening the gap further, but it appears that it's already too large.
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 2:31:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2009 2:35:03 PM EST by 1911smith]
AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh..... I was thinking about you today Spook. Your manufacturing Goblins. I was doing an extractor for my carry XSE and I took some pictures. Taken after filing so they would show better.. After filing I finished with stone.



The extractor is a Colt factory part made by the lowest MIM bidder and works just fine with Hornady XTP's or any other defensive round I want to feed. I'm blessed to have friends that are shooters as well as gunsmiths for advice.... This XSE Combat Elite was my last project. Not bad, eh ?..........
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 6:39:57 PM EST
Great pictures and a really great looking pistol.

Did you angle back the back end of the extractor hook slot? Kind of looks like it in the photo.
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 7:14:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2009 7:56:34 PM EST by 1911smith]
Spook,
No, didn't hit the back it was that way from factory. Did file the extractor hook inside lip and under a few strokes. Before tuning Hornady XTP rounds would jam at barrel base and would not fly very far when cycling rounds... dropped at feet would be more accurate description... This is the 2nd weapon I have tuned for XTP's. Now they fly out when cycling with no hang ups.
Edit: Thank You for the compliment..... It is fun and rewarding smithing for yourself.
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 1:44:42 AM EST
Really appreciate this exchange guys…

Have a ’one of these days’ project so I have been lapping this up
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 3:57:01 PM EST
It's Sunday afternoon. Just back from the range. I went there full of optimism. I beveled and polished my Ed Brown extractor last night. It was a bright metal silver work of art. I was thinking of new nics like 'SpookSmith'. I was looking forward to reporting the 100's of rounds sent flawlessly downrange. Corbon DPX, Speer GoldDot, Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Sabre all flowing through the Wilson mags with boring precision. Initial tests has rounds feeding smoothly by hand from all mags. Still.. It was not to be.

The gun club range was empty. I raised the range flag, set up a target at 50 feet (feeling more optimistic than 7 yards) and marveled at just how great the New Mexico summers are at this elevation. I took some photos to post announcing my gunsmithing (albeit with a great deal of help) success. Everything would have been perfect if I had just not fired the gun.

It still jammed. 3 times in 20 rounds. It was also now failing to stay open after the last round. First time I had seen this. I chronicled the range trip to share.

Ready with an assortment of good ammo:



Some Wilson and MecGar magazines



The problem Springfield with newly beveled and polished extractor installed.



Target at 50ft just because I'm feeling optimistic



First jam. Different views.





Second jam.



There was another failure where it was almost in the chamber and I was able to nudge the slide forward. Sometimes with either MecGars or Wilsons the slide would stay open on the last shot, sometimes not.

After serious consideration, I think I have the solution to the problems I'm having with this 1911:



Link Posted: 8/2/2009 6:16:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 7:16:44 PM EST by 1911smith]
Some thoughts....... I don't smith for anyone except myself, a few relatives and friends for free. If you would like call MidwayUSA and order an EB extractor. Tell them you want a dock five customer pick up. I live 5 minutes from there. I'm off tomorrow and will pick it up, tune it. Then mail it to you. You owe me nothing in return. One other thought. Slide not locking back is a follower problem in your magazines. The mags your using have been reported to have this issue. Wilson is in the process of trying to make me a believer now... Will post more about this next week with photos.
Question ? Did you experience a jam with Winchester Ball Ammo. One other thought.... yea this will start some shit..... the 1911 is not as reliable out of the box as the Browning Hi-Power. My last thought. If you stay with this you'll look back and feel gratified you learned and use the 1911 platform.

Edit. Have you polished the lower bevel on your barrel ?? Because if you haven't that's your next step.... Google 3 point bind.
2nd Edit: SpookSmith..... I like that... has a nice ring to it....
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 7:30:54 PM EST
That is a heckuva offer 1911 and I will be happy to take you up on the extractor if they will take a debit card or if Visa has my new card in the mailbox tomorrow morning. I'll check in the morning and let you know. Visa called earlier this week and asked 'did you charge $1.23 to this? $3.48 to this? $99 to this?' when the answer was no, they told me about fraud alerts and we killed the card. I'll have a new one here shortly and will start avoiding some of the smaller shops online.

While anything is possible and experience counts here, I think I did the extractor correctly. Not like it's terribly difficult. Round a bunch of edges with needle files and polish everything up. I'm researching 3 point jams now. Also, the slide wasn't being held back by the MecGar mags either. New problem. And no, I've never had a FMJ jam. More research. More trial and error.

Did I mention that I really appreciate the help?
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 8:01:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 8:02:03 PM EST by RRA223]
I agree the extractor needs to be looked at to make sure, but the pics show a 3 point jam. This could be caused by a magazine issue, or the bottom of the barrel that doesn't have a chamfer or the ramp isn't right..

The gun is fixable, no question. One other idea is to make sure the breech face is smooth with no burrs around the firing pin hole, as this could snag a round and cause issues like what is in your pictures.
What recoil spring you running?
Are you using buffs?
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 9:16:21 PM EST
I bought the gun from a guy that had some custom work done on it including polishing the ramp. I'm beginning to wonder if there's an issue with the work that was done on the barrel. I will try using markers on the ramp this week and see where the round is hitting. They may have taken too much off. There aren't any burrs on the breech face that I can feel or see. I'm using 4 different Wilson mags and they all have issues as well as the less good MecGars so while magazines are always possible, seems less likely. I'm starting to feel like the extractor is a secondary factor given many potential causes of 3 point jams though I may back off the tension a little and try again.

I am using a buffer. Not sure what the spring tension is but I believe I have a standard weight Wolff in stock to swap.

Also, is there anything that could cause the magazine to seat shallow and still click in place?
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 10:18:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 10:22:00 PM EST by RRA223]
I'd lose the buffs until your gun runs.
The ramp was worked on, maybe we are on to something. Check to see if there is a step between the frame and ramp where a bullet nose can catch. It must be smooth with no possible snags, or the ramp set back. If the frame is cut down or polished and the bullet must jump over it to reach the barrel this is where your problem is.
Wilson mags are sometimes problematic. A better mag has a bullet stop made onto it's follower, so the last bullet won't just slip out. A bullet stop looks like a heavy burr or nick on the center of the follower. This will prevent the bullet from just slipping out of the magazine.

Again, the extractor needs to have the correct tension. So still inspect this as well as the other ideas I gave you.

On recoil springs: Most shooters set up the gun to suit themselves depending on their load, bullet weight and grip on the gun. You should have the ejected brass land from five to ten feet away from your feet. If the brass falls on your feet, or fails to eject, you need a lighter spring. If the brass lands fifteen to twenty feet away, you need a heavier spring.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 6:27:35 AM EST
Not sure if your gun was bought new or used. Sounds like your barrel bevel and upper hood have been polished. Let's focus on the extractor. Here's some pictures.

1st pic is top of extractor - 2nd bottom of extractor. Notice how much less material is left on bottom than top. Since your FMJ's are running good that tells me your extractor needs more work. There really is a difference between defensive rounds and regular brass both for pressure reasons and increased cycling. So we need to take some more off of extractor. The one pictured runs any damn thing fed to it.... When we get done your magazines will feed fine. My offer to tune and mail an extractor still stands.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 8:30:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Not sure if your gun was bought new or used. Sounds like your barrel bevel and upper hood have been polished. Let's focus on the extractor. Here's some pictures.
http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/cue001-1.jpghttp://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/cue002-1.jpg
1st pic is top of extractor - 2nd bottom of extractor. Notice how much less material is left on bottom than top. Since your FMJ's are running good that tells me your extractor needs more work. There really is a difference between defensive rounds and regular brass both for pressure reasons and increased cycling. So we need to take some more off of extractor. The one pictured runs any damn thing fed to it.... When we get done your magazines will feed fine. My offer to tune and mail an extractor still stands.


Roger that on the extractor. I will get some pictures of the one I did here shortly (no joy on getting you one from Midway.. no CC yet.. that and I think I should be able to drive a needle file).
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 9:24:53 AM EST
I'm betting your a race car driver with a needle file and believe you will do on your own.. Just throwing the Midway option out there for motivation. I sure wish someone would have been on line to give me help when I needed it online instead of.... give up, take it to a gunsmith...... simply interpreted... your too stupid to fix it yourself...... or how about the gunsmith that says I take my car to a professional mechanic to be fixed, why should you try to fix your weapon yourself..... The largest asshole I encountered..... said I wasn't qualified to overhaul the 600 horsepower Caterpillar engine on my cattle hauling rig........ ate those words after spending 40k on tools and doing myself .... It would have been cheaper to let him fix it.... but not near as fun. Or, hey what about that Hi-Power project that I have going on ?.......If you will finish your extractor like one pictured you will be well on your way...........
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:21:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 4:25:36 PM EST by Oro]
I see 1911Smith is helping you quite a bit. The cw on this issue is when a SA chokes, immediately suspect the extractor. But after your first foray of replacing it saw no change whatsoever, I'd then want to check what the ramp angle is and see that it hasn't been milled incorrectly or that and the barrel throat polished too agressively. I would check that ramp angle first given the photo of the three-point bind shown. I would also loose the fancy mags and see what happens with the stock SA magazines or a Colt magazine.

To solve problems, removing variables speeds up the process. One thing you can do cheaply is remove the non-standard magazines from the equation temporarily.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:53:47 PM EST
Those are all excellent points you have brought up Oro... and going back to a stock mag is a good idea too. Hard to beat a Colt 7 rounder isn't it ? I'm not sure what Spook is pursuing now.. But in my mind I had put the other points to the side for now because he's feeding Winchester Ball just fine. It's not until Spook gets into the thicker rim and cased defensive stuff he starts to experience the jams. An extractor can throw you and make you think the culprit is the barrel bevel. On mine at least... I have two tuned for Hornady XTP's and the extractors were tuned as shown in pictures....
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 6:41:46 PM EST
I would say the tension on the extractor is still not right, and maybe the barrel needs to be throated a bit.

Polishing the breechface wouldn't hurt either.
Link Posted: 8/5/2009 8:45:04 AM EST
Keeping track of the suggestions and will act on them in order. Taking more off the extractor is first (I will get extractor pictures posted, in a busy phase and this isn't getting worked). I would try a different magazine but MecGars and Wilsons are all I have. After the extractor step I'll see about getting a stock magazine. I'm also having problems with the slide staying open after the last shot so a stock magazine might give some insight into that. The ramp and throat will follow though I can do a quick check on that at home with markers and hand cycling.

Will get some pictures and results up. I am getting a lot of help here but I think others may be learning new things from this thread as well so things need to be clear when possible.
Link Posted: 8/7/2009 1:05:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2009 1:11:45 AM EST by ViniVidivici]
Don't take more material off of the extractor just yet...................get the TENSION on the extractor right. There are tutorials for this on 1911.org, I believe. Probably one around here too.

Basically, just bending the extractor a bit to the point where it's not too tight. With the slide off the gun, by itself, you should be able to slide a loaded round onto the breechface, with the extractor engaged on the rim, and have it hold the round there, as you rotate the slide up and down.

Round falls out, too little tension. Round is very hard to get into position, too much tension. Initially, I would think your extractor has too much tension.

ETA: here's some info on that:http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=289

And as I had said before, it sounds like the barrel MAY need to be "throated" just a bit. Here's some info on that, the section entitled "The Barrel":
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=425
Link Posted: 8/7/2009 1:37:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2009 2:02:31 AM EST by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Don't take more material off of the extractor just yet...................get the TENSION on the extractor right. There are tutorials for this on 1911.org, I believe. Probably one around here too.

Basically, just bending the extractor a bit to the point where it's not too tight. With the slide off the gun, by itself, you should be able to slide a loaded round onto the breechface, with the extractor engaged on the rim, and have it hold the round there, as you rotate the slide up and down.

Round falls out, too little tension. Round is very hard to get into position, too much tension. Initially, I would think your extractor has too much tension.

ETA: here's some info on that:http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=289

And as I had said before, it sounds like the barrel MAY need to be "throated" just a bit. Here's some info on that, the section entitled "The Barrel":
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=425


.......................... Big Sigh................................................
Edit: Vini..... If extractor is tuned correctly the tension will be of little consequence.... Slow down a little and read through where Spook has already been and if you will be somewhat patient I think you will see this is going the right direction through a series of steps...... Spooks feeding Winchester Ball just fine..... It's not until he gets into defensive rounds that he experiences problems... What tells me that he's making progress is before replacing or tuning an extractor the weapon had FTF every 3 to 4 rounds... After some tuning he experienced only 3 out of 20 rounds and is still feeding Winchester Ball just fine...... If the extractor claw is too narrow to accept case rim the result will be to push the round down.. In this case it's pushing the middle of the casing into lower barrel bevel for a 2 point bind...... Polishing or throating the barrel at this point is not the right thing to do........... Now for just a minute let's just say I'm full of shit and have no idea what I'm talking about. Spook's out one extractor... Gun parts are like Doritos, they'll make more...... and one other point, an extractor is a lot cheaper than a barrel......

Link Posted: 8/7/2009 12:25:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2009 12:27:42 PM EST by Spook410]
I have three extractors. Two EB hard cores and the stock one. I'm going to take some more material of one of the EB's and re-polish it. I'm also going to make sure it isn't hitting the slope of the round by being too long. Like 1911 said, lots of extractors to go around.

Vini: I think I'm pretty close to the right tension. This is the first thing I worked on. I got a Weidgand set up and while I'm thinking I have too much tension by the way things feel, the measured value is correct. I may back it off just a bit.

Hope to work on this and get some pic's up tonight and get to the range this weekend.

Side note: I just bought a Dan Wesson Valor that will arrive in a few weeks. I still intend to get this pistol running right and I think everyone needs to go through this phase if they like the platform. Of course, having expert guidance shrinks months to weeks in learning. Would even be days if I could make the range daily to test.
Link Posted: 8/8/2009 11:55:43 AM EST
- I thought it was odd in the last range session that my slide was failing to stay open. This has never been a problem
- I was testing it today and it works fine.
- It does take some attention with this gun to ensure the slide stop is fully inserted
- I looked at a couple of the pictures and it looks like it was not fully seated
–– the end of the pin looks like it's flush with the frame rather than poking out 1/8" or so like it should

Could this have contributed to the jams I was seeing and in fact, the previous extractor work was already successful?
Link Posted: 8/8/2009 12:08:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh..... I was thinking about you today Spook. Your manufacturing Goblins. I was doing an extractor for my carry XSE and I took some pictures. Taken after filing so they would show better.. After filing I finished with stone.
http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/extractor001.jpghttp://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/extractor002.jpg
http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/extractor003.jpghttp://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/XSECustom008.jpg
http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/XSECustom010.jpghttp://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/XSECustom005.jpg
The extractor is a Colt factory part made by the lowest MIM bidder and works just fine with Hornady XTP's or any other defensive round I want to feed. I'm blessed to have friends that are shooters as well as gunsmiths for advice.... This XSE Combat Elite was my last project. Not bad, eh ?..........


Colt doesn't use MIM extractors. They tried in the early 2000s and quickly ditched them.
Link Posted: 8/8/2009 12:24:52 PM EST
You got a better photo of your barrel throat? In the fuzzy photos the angle looks very steep.

Your "First jam" photos look like the extractor hasn't even got to the rim yet.

Are your non-ball bullet ogives catching on the slide release and forcing it up?
Link Posted: 8/8/2009 6:04:16 PM EST
Thanks for the info Fmjjoe..... I really didn't know one way or the other.... Not even sure what the point was except to say " see the factory extractor can work without tensioning and proper tuning. " FYI.. MidwayUSA isn now keeping factory Colt 1911 parts in stock now.... that's bad news for EB as far as my buying habits are concerned. Not a damn thing wrong with Colt internals.
Link Posted: 8/8/2009 9:16:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By ViniVidivici:
Don't take more material off of the extractor just yet...................get the TENSION on the extractor right. There are tutorials for this on 1911.org, I believe. Probably one around here too.

Basically, just bending the extractor a bit to the point where it's not too tight. With the slide off the gun, by itself, you should be able to slide a loaded round onto the breechface, with the extractor engaged on the rim, and have it hold the round there, as you rotate the slide up and down.

Round falls out, too little tension. Round is very hard to get into position, too much tension. Initially, I would think your extractor has too much tension.

ETA: here's some info on that:http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=289

And as I had said before, it sounds like the barrel MAY need to be "throated" just a bit. Here's some info on that, the section entitled "The Barrel":
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=425


.......................... Big Sigh................................................
Edit: Vini..... If extractor is tuned correctly the tension will be of little consequence.... Slow down a little and read through where Spook has already been and if you will be somewhat patient I think you will see this is going the right direction through a series of steps...... Spooks feeding Winchester Ball just fine..... It's not until he gets into defensive rounds that he experiences problems... What tells me that he's making progress is before replacing or tuning an extractor the weapon had FTF every 3 to 4 rounds... After some tuning he experienced only 3 out of 20 rounds and is still feeding Winchester Ball just fine...... If the extractor claw is too narrow to accept case rim the result will be to push the round down.. In this case it's pushing the middle of the casing into lower barrel bevel for a 2 point bind...... Polishing or throating the barrel at this point is not the right thing to do........... Now for just a minute let's just say I'm full of shit and have no idea what I'm talking about. Spook's out one extractor... Gun parts are like Doritos, they'll make more...... and one other point, an extractor is a lot cheaper than a barrel......



Roger that 1911smith. I'm tryin' too hard to help.

Link Posted: 8/9/2009 12:10:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Thanks for the info Fmjjoe..... I really didn't know one way or the other.... Not even sure what the point was except to say " see the factory extractor can work without tensioning and proper tuning. " FYI.. MidwayUSA isn now keeping factory Colt 1911 parts in stock now.... that's bad news for EB as far as my buying habits are concerned. Not a damn thing wrong with Colt internals.


My WWII repro originally had a MIM extractor (Colt MIM extractors were red) and I sent it back to Colt because the slide to frame fit was ... yeah. Anyway, when I got around to sending it in a couple years later they replaced the slide and put a tool steel extractor in it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 12:22:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2009 1:12:16 PM EST by Spook410]
Was able to get to taking some more off the extractor today though I haven't made it to the range to test yet. Some pictures:

This is what an unfiled and unpolished Ed Brown hardcore extractor looks like:


This is after first attempt. This version was in while the gun was still jamming. It's a lousy photo. It's more rounded and polished than it looks.


Some filing (Again, sorry for photo quality)


Some Flitz polish. That's the blue cream.


Finished.. next step is a range test.

Link Posted: 8/9/2009 12:51:53 PM EST
This is the ramp and barrel. This pistol had some custom work from a professional outfit before I bought it.

Link Posted: 8/9/2009 1:12:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
This is the ramp and barrel. This pistol had some custom work from a professional outfit before I bought it.

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo266/alschrec/ramp.jpg


That feedramp looks pretty butchered, like someone went to town with a dremel. They probably changed the whole angle of the ramp.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 1:16:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2009 1:41:00 PM EST by 1911smith]
Here's a picture of tuned extractor in extra mac closeup for you to compare, it feeds anything including junk cars....... Your barrel looks fine, I'm going to post another picture in a minute..... don't go anywhere.

Now before any one says " what a whack and hack job "..... That's a Nowlin drop in barrel on my first 1911 " project ". All I did was drop it in. Nowlin cut the bevel in barrel, it's an extremely accurate barrel too. It feeds anything including junk cars as well.....

Notice your shit has more polish than my shit..... your shit is good to go barrel and feed ramp wise. I don't know about your extractor. It doesn't look like it's cut evenly across on bottom feed side. Looks deep at hook and thick in the middle ?? maybe just the camera. dunno, macro can play tricks on the eyes.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 1:27:38 PM EST
Wish I could get this camera to take that sort of closeup. If anything the one I just did is more rounded and polished than your good one.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 1:52:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2009 10:52:30 AM EST by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Wish I could get this camera to take that sort of closeup. If anything the one I just did is more rounded and polished than your good one.


Yes it is more rounded and is nothing to worry about. The Nowlin barrel is beveled pictured in Colt receiver. My factory Colt barrels have been beveled and rounded like yours for rapid feed. Your's is not cut enough to be what some would call unsupported.... It would have to be cut a lot deeper to be considered that. Barrel is good to go. We're still at extractor.

P.S. Camera has digital zoom and I'm just starting to learn how to use it. Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H10. $209.00 @ Wal-Mart.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 1:58:34 PM EST
Also your feed ramp on receiver is just fine too. Someone did indeed go to town with a Dremel and looks like they did a good job... I dont see where any metal was taken off to change it's angle or take it deeper into barrel base.
Link Posted: 8/9/2009 4:59:44 PM EST
Wish I was going to make it to the range sooner.. looks like next weekend. We'll see where we're actually at then.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 8:14:22 AM EST
Spook, just a suggestion. Take your tensioner and file with you to range for on site solution. It's been mentioned that I need a hobby, and maybe a dog. Here's what range day can be.

Range is 45 mile one way trip. It's better sometimes to work on site. I tuned an extractor hook last week and just for grins over tensioned. Jam, jam,jam ... backed tension off.. blam,blam,blam ..
Have fun !
Link Posted: 8/16/2009 4:16:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2009 4:17:55 PM EST by Spook410]
First of all, I want to thank 1911smith. I am sure I was not the only one reading this thread and benefiting from the time and effort he took to post pics, analyze results, and provide the encouragement necessary to a new student of the 1911 platform. You are an asset to this forum and I raise my diet Mountain Dew to you in respect and appreciation.

I would like to report that the result of constructing a finely tensioned, polished, and radiused extractor resulted in success but it is not to be. As always, the gun is flawless with FMJ. Unfortunately, I am seeing the same results with hollowpoints. Went 3 rounds.. jam. Tried a different brand of magazine, the same. Tried a 7 round versus 8 round magazine, same. I saw 3 point jams that I had to drop the magazine to clear and one ramp jam that just required a nudge. I loosened the tension on the extractor at the range, almost launching my spring loaded firing pin off into gravel and spent brass where it would likely never be seen again. If not for the brim of my hat that is. I finished assembly in an enclosed vehicle. The extractor was likely a bit too loose for the last go around as the photo shows at the end of the last magazine:



I receive a new Dan Wesson Valor the middle of next week. I think I will try to send this gun back to the custom shop that worked on it since I doubt Springfield will touch it now. Even if it goes to a smith, I will get it running properly rather than sticking some other poor SOB with a gun that won't run like the guy that stuck me with it. I believe karma follows us daily.

Thanks to all for the help and interest. I will provide a follow up after professional work is done but it will be awhile.

Link Posted: 8/16/2009 5:34:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2009 6:02:48 PM EST by 1911smith]
Spook,
Believe me when I say I feel the frustration your feeling....... That's only one step to getting a 1911 tuned...... and frankly the first place to start in the gun itself.... Magazines are the first for problem check.... The next step is barrel bevel........... Seriously though.... I really wish you would IM me your address and I will send you an extractor I know to work with your gun..... It's free so don't refuse....... ...smith.

ETA: Have you a dremel with felt tip.... ? I would like to use your thread if you don't mind to show how to polish hood and bevel to eliminate 3 point bind through a series of pictures.................. That is..... if there is interest in forum ????

If you should decide to take me up on extractor... I will also send 1 Cobra and 1 Wilson ETM 8 round magazines that I will trust you to mail back to me when we are done with this exercise..... You've gone too far to give up now,,,,, wonder what others would think if we just gave up ??

Also I would like to know what brand of ammunition was dealing the most trouble feeding.
Link Posted: 8/16/2009 6:19:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2009 6:34:39 PM EST by 1911smith]
After looking at your picture and thinking......... I'm sorry we didn't do this before but this is the first picture of a jam like this and it indicates to me that chamber on barrel needs to be checked..... To do this take your most problematic box of ammunition...... One by one take every cartridge in box and drop into chamber with barrel facing down. Then turn barrel upside down to see if it drops freely into your hand.... If cartridge sticks going in or dropping out then we know the chamber needs reaming............ From there if that checks it could be timing issue.... what lb recoil spring are you using ???
It's likely I could be sending you some new springs with mags and extractor.

I'm sure it's being asked at this point my motivation ??? It's simple... Doing it for me because of all the times I've sat and figured things out the hard way .... You and every one else should benefit from those experiences .........
Link Posted: 8/16/2009 7:17:03 PM EST
OK.. but I'm changing my nic to 'grasshopper'.
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