So your walking out the door and you can only choose between two guns..

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So your walking out the door and you can only choose between two guns..

Posted: 10/5/2004 9:44:07 AM EDT

I was heading to work this morning and had to choose between two pistols. This was the choice:

Glock 23 with 2-10 round mags loaded with 135 grain, Federal Hydra-shok

Glock 19 with 2-15 round mags loaded with FMJ.

Which would you choose, and why?

Poll Coming up.

TRG

Posted: 10/5/2004 9:46:51 AM EDT

[#1]

g23 cuz i like my bullets to do terrible things

Posted: 10/5/2004 9:48:21 AM EDT

[#2]

Why the hell is your G19 loaded with ball??

Posted: 10/5/2004 9:48:58 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Why the hell is your G19 loaded with ball??

Had it out over the weekend to plink. Never unloaded it.

TRG

Posted: 10/5/2004 10:03:53 AM EDT

[#4]

I assume the 23 is a .40.

A .40 with FMJs vs a 9 with ball? Man, that's a slam dunk decision.

Why do people think that a large capacity magazine makes any difference with this sort of thing?

Some math:

Most shootings < 7 yards.

7 yards gives you 1.5 seconds or less.

If you are decent, you can react, draw, and fire 2 shots in 1.5 sec with ~7 yard accuracy--from an open carry holster.

Conclusion: 15 rounds of 9mm ball will give your attacker something to shoot you with after he's beat the crap out of you.

Posted: 10/5/2004 10:16:25 AM EDT

[#5]

If all I could choose between was two Glocks, I'd have to be unarmed.

Posted: 10/5/2004 11:39:06 AM EDT

[#6]

Well It's 6-0 in favor of the G23.

I would pick the 23 over the 19. Since both guns IMO are equal in the carry department as far as pistols go and I don't factor magazine capacity over 10 rounds to be important for carry.... The main difference is the type of ammo. I ain't carrying FMJ ammo in my carry gun. IMHO, FMJ just isn't carry ammo unless it's found in a 45.

I don't feel comfortable packing my 19 w/ HPs. (Weird, I know, especially since my G19 is spooky accurate)

So what did you choose TRG?

Sly

Posted: 10/5/2004 11:59:21 AM EDT

[#7]

What kind of defensive ammo do you usually carry in your G19?

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:14:44 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
If all I could choose between was two Glocks, I'd have to be unarmed.

+1

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:17:31 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Well It's 6-0 in favor of the G23.

I would pick the 23 over the 19. Since both guns IMO are equal in the carry department as far as pistols go and I don't factor magazine capacity over 10 rounds to be important for carry.... The main difference is the type of ammo. I ain't carrying FMJ ammo in my carry gun. IMHO, FMJ just isn't carry ammo unless it's found in a 45. I don't feel comfortable packing my 19 w/ HPs. (Weird, I know, especially since my G19 is spooky accurate)

So what did you choose TRG?

Sly

G23.

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:20:09 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
What kind of defensive ammo do you usually carry in your G19?

Black Talon.

TRG

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:21:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
What kind of defensive ammo do you usually carry in your G19?

Who, me

FWIW, 124 Grain Hydra-Shok. IIRC, it was 124 grain... I don't carry it much. In fact I should rotate those rounds as they've been around a year or two.

Sly

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:22:35 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

Why?

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:25:02 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Well It's 6-0 in favor of the G23.

I would pick the 23 over the 19. Since both guns IMO are equal in the carry department as far as pistols go and I don't factor magazine capacity over 10 rounds to be important for carry.... The main difference is the type of ammo. I ain't carrying FMJ ammo in my carry gun. IMHO, FMJ just isn't carry ammo unless it's found in a 45. I don't feel comfortable packing my 19 w/ HPs. (Weird, I know, especially since my G19 is spooky accurate)

So what did you choose TRG?

Sly

G23.

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

You leave your house when it's cold!

It gets to -30 *F here during the winter....

That's an especially cold day.

Sly

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:26:20 PM EDT

[#14]

the G19.......because I'm an idiot and I didn't realize that the 23 was a .40...I thought it was a .45...no .45 glocks for me.

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:26:42 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

Why?

ETA: "My guess is" The cold usually calls for added layers. Sweat shirt, vest, parka, etc. etc. FMJs will give added penetration whereas HPs might/could/will fill with clothing and fail to contact those "sensitive inards"....ETA If you're layering up, so is your advisary.

Sly

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:29:02 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What kind of defensive ammo do you usually carry in your G19?

Who, me

FWIW, 124 Grain Hydra-Shok. IIRC, it was 124 grain... I don't carry it much. In fact I should rotate those rounds as they've been around a year or two.

Sly

Sorry, the question was meant for TRG but I'm glad you answered too! I usually run the same thing you do but lately I've been running the Carbon Pow'R Ball...I haven't formed an opinion on it yet

Posted: 10/5/2004 12:56:38 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

Why?

ETA: "My guess is" The cold usually calls for added layers. Sweat shirt, vest, parka, etc. etc. FMJs will give added penetration whereas HPs might/could/will fill with clothing and fail to contact those "sensitive inards"....ETA If you're layering up, so is your advisary.

Sly

Yup. Heavy clothing might mean a little less penetration for the HP.

TRG

Posted: 10/5/2004 1:38:17 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

If it had been an especially cold day, I might have chosen the FMJ in 9mm.

TRG

Why?

ETA: "My guess is" The cold usually calls for added layers. Sweat shirt, vest, parka, etc. etc. FMJs will give added penetration whereas HPs might/could/will fill with clothing and fail to contact those "sensitive inards"....ETA If you're layering up, so is your advisary.

Sly

When HPs plug with clothing, they act like ball; including increased penetration. Cold weather means your 9 is even less likely to expand, more reason to switch to a .40 or better yet a .45.

A choice between a 9mm with good JHPs vs a .45 with ball is more difficult. Good 9mm JHPs definitly outperform .45 ball when they expand, but that doesn't always happen. And heavy winter clothing would probably reduce the probability of the 9s expanding.

Posted: 10/5/2004 4:45:55 PM EDT

[#19]

Big holes makes invisable souls. Ball ammo is for range time. Sucked having to carry ball 9mm in military. Mostly passes right through with little knock down.

Posted: 10/5/2004 5:12:59 PM EDT

[#20]

G19, because Glock + .40S&W = KB.

Posted: 10/6/2004 6:47:42 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
If all I could choose between was two Glocks, I'd have to be unarmed.

+1

The biggest issue here is your ammo choices aren't great anyway. The performance numbers on the 135 Hydroshocks are not great. Bad penetration numbers. Then with 9mm ball you've got no expansion. Plus, I'm just not a Glock fan......... Get yourself some gold dots or rangers. Check out the ammo section in the AR15 forum for decent carry loads that meet FBI specs.

Posted: 10/6/2004 8:27:26 AM EDT

[#22]

G23 with Hydra

If I need more than 10, maybe i shouldn't have been there in the first place

- BG

Posted: 10/6/2004 8:36:14 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If all I could choose between was two Glocks, I'd have to be unarmed.

+1

The biggest issue here is your ammo choices aren't great anyway. The performance numbers on the 135 Hydroshocks are not great. Bad penetration numbers. Then with 9mm ball you've got no expansion. Plus, I'm just not a Glock fan......... Get yourself some gold dots or rangers. Check out the ammo section in the AR15 forum for decent carry loads that meet FBI specs.

I disagree about hte ammo. I have used the Hydra-shok for quite a while on hog hunts. I have found it to penetrate extremely well.

Best penetration was a 10 yard 'quartering' shot in to a hog's right shoulder. The round broke the right shoulder, blew out a chunk of spine, continued to the left shoulder, broke that, and then lodged under the hide on the left side of the hog. Three major muscle areas and three bone structures...

IMHO, a defensive round should NOT exit the target. If it does, then you havea round travelling downrange that you are NOT in control of.

If you hit someone with that round, you are liable.

I don't want more than what I am carrying in that 135 grain bullet. It has already proven it can do the job, more than once.

TRG

Posted: 10/6/2004 9:24:09 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
IMHO, a defensive round should NOT exit the target. If it does, then you havea round travelling downrange that you are NOT in control of.

If you hit someone with that round, you are liable.
TRG

Yet you were considering 9mm ball?

I don't believe that you can obtain a round that will deal with every individual (say, a large body builder at a bad angle with his arm between you and the center of his chest) that will not overpenetrait on some other individual (a skinny little guy face on, chest exposed). That's to say, I don't believe the "no exit" requirement is realistic.

Furthermore, the biggest issue is missing the target, not overpenetration, IMO.

Posted: 10/6/2004 9:28:26 AM EDT

[#25]

Neither.

1. I would never have a plastic pistol in my house.
2. I don't believe either of those pistols is chambered in .45ACP?

Posted: 10/6/2004 9:32:11 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
IMHO, a defensive round should NOT exit the target. If it does, then you havea round travelling downrange that you are NOT in control of.

If you hit someone with that round, you are liable.
TRG

Yet you were considering 9mm ball?

I don't believe that you can obtain a round that will deal with every individual (say, a large body builder at a bad angle with his arm between you and the center of his chest) that will not overpenetrait on some other individual (a skinny little guy face on, chest exposed). That's to say, I don't believe the "no exit" requirement is realistic.

Furthermore, the biggest issue is missing the target, not overpenetration, IMO.

Considering? Yeah, I looked at both and went "hmmm, gotta choose one..."

Just like I pick a shirt in the morning and try to match it to my pants. One goes BANG! 16 times, with 15 more to go bang as well. the other goes BANG 11 times with 10 to back it up. It was a choice to make.

While I agree that not overpenetrating is a secondary concern, it is the reason why I have not gone to a 180 grain version.

TRG