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Posted: 1/3/2006 4:47:38 AM EDT
Too bad it was Maryland and all the sheep had to be disarmed.


50 robbed at gunpoint during service

(AP) BEL AIR, Md. Harford County sheriff's deputies continue to search for the armed man who took cash and valuables from worshippers during a church service Sunday evening near Bel Air.

Investigators were back in the Fountain Green community last night looking for clues.

The gunman robbed about 50 people at Mount Zion United Methodist Church in the 1600 block of Churchville Road. He was wearing dark clothing and a ski mask.

No one was hurt.

Harford County Crime Solvers is offering a cash reward of up to $1,000 for information leading to the arrest of the person responsible.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:44:02 PM EDT
Here in SC, you can carry in church with your concealed permit, if the pastor lets you. I think that is correct. I need to find out, then ask my pastor if he would care. It always makes me nervous to be sitting there unarmed especially when church is not in the best part of town.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:45:07 PM EDT
I always do. Why ask the pastor? Nobody needs to know.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:53:15 PM EDT
We have security at our church with off duty police.
Even with that, I keep a 3" 1911 in an ankle holster.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:05:21 PM EDT
I believe, by the grace of God, that most criminals are dumb as rocks otherwise they'd be hitting churches left and right. Think about it, everbody breaks out their 'Sunday best' for wear to church. I sit in church and look around to see every other woman with 1-ct. diamond rings or bigger, etc., etc. Not to mention that a lot of people have brought sizeable amounts of cash for the collection plate. Hell, we have one lady that sports a 5-ct. diamond ring (retired full-bird Colonel's wife) every Sunday.
It's an absolute wonder that more of this sh*t doesn't go down. I don't pack in church, but I'm considering it more and more.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:07:23 PM EDT
I do.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:13:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 1:15:37 AM EDT by CAAAwarfighter]
Why not, if your serious about carry and protecting yourself you always carry unless you absolutely cannot.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:25:39 AM EDT
I carried when I did goto church. I could not see a reason not to.

I think alot of the Jews up here started packing after a couple of skinheads came into the synagogue in the middle of their services and started making threats.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:04:59 AM EDT
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:36:19 AM EDT
Maybe not?


Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

They neglected to add, "(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6) (<---the church one), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06"

This means, unless the Church has the correct signage posted, you are permitted to carry in a church.

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:11:01 PM EDT
In VA carrying at "religious services" is specifically prohibited.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:34:55 PM EDT
Moron states......

Ya, because criminals, terrorists, or domestic murderers never attack at church

Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:45:40 PM EDT
So... where was Jesus during all this? <flame suit on>
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:54:16 PM EDT

Here in SC, you can carry in church with your concealed permit, if the pastor lets you.

The law uses the term "church leader." Unfortunately it doesn't define who that is. According to someone from SLED quoted in the paper here, a the pastor in a Baptist church doesn't count since he's an employee. In a Methodist church the pastor counts since he is appointed to the job and accountable to the denomination rather than an employee. We do bookkeeping for a large Baptist church in the area, and their lawyer came to the conclusion after research that even though they wanted the members to be able to CCW, it was not legal according to state law. That was six years ago, so my information might be out of date. The article gave several other convoluted examples, but the basic conclusion of the article was that SLED concluded that you could not carry in most churches in this state.z
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:07:35 PM EDT
Hmm I wonder if a church deacon or a trustee can be a "Church Leader"?

See the problem is, that if you every had to use the gun in church, as in a crazed nut broke in and started shooting people, you would have a felony and not be allowed to own any firearms in the future.

Of course, i think that protecting your life and your family would be worth it, but still..... better to get permission from a "church leader"

I wonder why my pastor would say.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:16:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jbombelli:
So... where was Jesus during all this? <flame suit on>



LOL...I believe the Christian answer here would be "he was busy allowing man to exercise his free will."
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:35:07 PM EDT
Hmmm...I may have to re-consider where I CCW, and where I don't.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:39:19 PM EDT
God knows I carry in church.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:22:27 PM EDT
I'd love to carry in Church, but on the scale of risk, that one hour or two per week that I spend in church isn't worth the Class 4 misdemeanor conviction if someone should spot it. On the other hand, here is the actual VA statute:

###########################
§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
############################

Good and sufficient reason could be just about anything, or nothing at all, depending on the LEO you have to deal with. I love vague laws.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:30:48 PM EDT
i do it all the time- it does seem like a likely target for hate groups/robbers/scum in general. i'm the guitarist for my church and i always have a 226 and a spare mag on me. i carry everywhere except bars (which i don't frequent). with the way things are right now it seems irresponsible not to be carrying, especially in church.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:52:29 PM EDT

See the problem is, that if you every had to use the gun in church, as in a crazed nut broke in and started shooting people, you would have a felony and not be allowed to own any firearms in the future.


ever hear of jury nullification?
or if the DA is not a complete dick you'll be fine
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 2:53:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Don't forget that subsection.
That only applies if they have a 30.06 sign. None of the churches I have been to have been so posted. Just be sure of where you worship.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:26:35 PM EDT
Concealed carry is somewhat of a lifestyle choice IMHO. With the exception of court houses and police departments I would carry everywhere. The weapon is supposed to be adequately concealed. I would not remove my roscoe before dropping off mail at the post office or making a deposit at the bank nor would i remove my sidearm before bringing my child to the doctor's office.

Conceal your weapon properly. Don't ask, don't tell.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:32:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jbombelli:
So... where was Jesus during all this? <flame suit on>



Where were you?

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:54:40 PM EDT
This is how it is in South Carolina:
A section from SLED's website (State Law Enforcement Division)
www.sled.state.sc.us/sled/default.asp?Category=sccwp&Service=StateGunLaws

A Concealable Weapons Permit (CWP) holder is prohibited from carrying a handgun at these locations:

Premises of private or public school, college, university, technical college, other post-secondary institution (without express permission of person in charge of premises)(Section 16-23-420)(Felony - $5000 and/or 5 years imprisonment)


Inside public-owned buildings of any kind, except at Interstate highway rest areas (Section 16-23-420)(Felony - $5000 and/or 5 years imprisonment)

Inside an establishment licensed for on-premises consumption of alcohol (Section 16-23-465)(Misdemeanor - $2000 and/or 3 years imprisonment)

Into a private residence without permission of owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate (Section 23-31-225)(Misdemeanor - $1000 and/or 1 year imprisonment)

A place where carrying is prohibited by proper sign (Section 23-31-235)(Misdemeanor - $200 or 30 days imprisonment)

A CWP does not authorize carrying a firearm:
Into a law enforcement office or facility
Into a detention or correctional facility
Into a courthouse or courtroom
Into a polling place on election day
Into an office or business meeting of a governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district
Into a school or college athletic event not related to firearms
Into a day care or pre-school facility
Into a place where carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law
Into a church or other established religious sanctuary, except with express permission of the appropriate church official or church governing body
Into a hospital, medical clinic, doctor’s office, any facility where medical services or procedures are performed, except (employees of the facility) with express permission of the employer
Violation of these provisions is a misdemeanor – not less than $1000 and/or imprisonment for 1 year and revocation of permit for 5 years.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:34:02 PM EDT
I would risk the misdemeanor charge and carry in church........when you are going to need it, what good is it going to do sitting in your car.

Dave Grossman has a nice speech on where terrorists prefer to strike and a place of religious worship is in the top 3.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:17:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 4:18:48 PM EDT by wildbilljr]
My pastor carries and my assist pastor carries! And I taught another pastor there how to shoot!So I think we're ok!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:32:01 PM EDT
laws saying that you cannot carry in a place of worship are bullshit.


what if carrying a firearm is a part of my religion? My gun room IS a place of worship!



seriously, while i am being facetious (sp?), the point is still valid.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:36:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:46:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



its that way in a ton of states not just texas so i hope you guys are reading the law of the land and not just taking your weapons where ever you please. also remember that in states that honor your license the carry places may be different. when i go back home to philly i can carry in malls but here in georgia malls are considered public gatherings and you cant carry in malls.. you guys need to make sure you are doing the right things.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:50:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzer:
Concealed carry is somewhat of a lifestyle choice IMHO. With the exception of court houses and police departments I would carry everywhere. The weapon is supposed to be adequately concealed. I would not remove my roscoe before dropping off mail at the post office or making a deposit at the bank nor would i remove my sidearm before bringing my child to the doctor's office.

Conceal your weapon properly. Don't ask, don't tell.



while the dont ask dont tell is good 99% of the time it only takes one time to do time if you know what i mean. post office? church? BANK? its just not worth it in those instances. you could go to the bank 50 times a year for 3 years with no prob but then in year 4 someone notices it by way of printing or anything stupid and then you do hard time.. whats the problem with taking it off for the 5-30 mins youll be in the bank/doc/post office?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:53:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



its that way in a ton of states not just texas so i hope you guys are reading the law of the land and not just taking your weapons where ever you please. also remember that in states that honor your license the carry places may be different. when i go back home to philly i can carry in malls but here in georgia malls are considered public gatherings and you cant carry in malls.. you guys need to make sure you are doing the right things.



Okay, whatever.

I guess you should feel safe enough with all of the mall security around.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 12:12:00 AM EDT
Of course I would never ccw into church, I don't have a ccw permit and won't get one because I refuse to exchange my right for a priviledge, however I do open carry into church every sunday!!
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:26:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 7:27:39 AM EDT by MTUSA]
I thought a Church is considered a school if it has
classrooms with students there on site during the service.
CCW is not allowed in schools correct?
My Pastor will allow me to CCW but its the classromm issue that prevents me.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:00:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr_Happy1:

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Don't forget that subsection.
That only applies if they have a 30.06 sign. None of the churches I have been to have been so posted. Just be sure of where you worship.



+1

TxDeputy, it would be wise to learn the law before you ruin some poor slobs day.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 12:55:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 12:57:13 PM EDT by hamishdhu]

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



I understand that folks are trying to be helpful but I really do wish people wouldn't post advice unless completely knowledgeable regarding the information.


(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06



Just for the sake of accuracy, you MAY carry in any Church in Texas, UNLESS advised otherwise by a legally accurate and properly posted PC 30.06
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:49:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



I understand that folks are trying to be helpful but I really do wish people wouldn't post advice unless completely knowledgeable regarding the information.


(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06



Just for the sake of accuracy, you MAY carry in any Church in Texas, UNLESS advised otherwise by a legally accurate and properly posted PC 30.06



+1
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:53:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 4:55:14 AM EDT by Rodent]

Originally Posted By MIA_Philly:

while the dont ask dont tell is good 99% of the time it only takes one time to do time if you know what i mean. post office? church? BANK? ... whats the problem with taking it off for the 5-30 mins youll be in the bank/doc/post office?




I wouldn't want to be the test case, but the law seems to allow CCW in post offices. I'm not aware of any laws here in NH that prohibit CCW in churches or banks, either. If there are, I'm a criminal. (BTW, I had a local cop tell me that schools are OK in NH, I've been meaning to look that up to clarify it.)

And the problem with "taking it off for the 5-30 mins youll be in the bank/doc/post office" is that: A). You won't have it if you need it, and, B). What are you going to do if you didn't drive a car, bury it in the flower bed outside?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:13:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
God knows I carry in church.



+1


God gave me permission to carry in church, I don't think I have to ask anyone else.

"He's pretty sure you're *&!#ed, though...ahahahahaha" - Braveheart...just in case you didn't get that...
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:02:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
I wouldn't want to be the test case, but the law seems to allow CCW in post offices.



A Post Office is federal property. Every single one around here has a no weapons sign posted.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:56:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:23:12 PM EDT by Maroonfeather]

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:

Originally Posted By TxDeputy:
For those of you in Texas with a CCL:

PC 46.035 Unlawful carrying of handgun by a license holder.

(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Class A misdemeanor



I understand that folks are trying to be helpful but I really do wish people wouldn't post advice unless completely knowledgeable regarding the information.


(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06



Just for the sake of accuracy, you MAY carry in any Church in Texas, UNLESS advised otherwise by a legally accurate and properly posted PC 30.06



I was also told in my recent class that the weekly bulletin can be used to give notice in lieu of the 30.06 at the door.

Edited to add additional 30.06 provisions:

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY
CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if
the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective
consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the
owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the
owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section
46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language
identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code
(trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person
licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed
handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed
handgun";
or
(B) a sign posted on the property ... (snip)
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:57:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kcobean:
I'd love to carry in Church, but on the scale of risk, that one hour or two per week that I spend in church isn't worth the Class 4 misdemeanor conviction if someone should spot it. On the other hand, here is the actual VA statute:

###########################
§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
############################

Good and sufficient reason could be just about anything, or nothing at all, depending on the LEO you have to deal with. I love vague laws.



I would say a "good and sufficient reason" would be the 2nd amendment. Another would be that you wish to have the ability to personally save your life and not have to rely solely on faith.

Of course a LEO may not see it that way.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:57:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 7:58:47 AM EDT by hamishdhu]

I was also told in my recent class that the weekly bulletin can be used to give notice in lieu of the 30.06 at the door.


I have serious doubts that that would ever stand up in court.

Would it apply to a drop-in worshipper, who had never previously attended that Church? What if I was ill last week and hadn't received the bulletin? Was it also printed in Spanish? We have folks come to our Church to worship whose knowledge of English is extremely limited. The notice may be contained in the bulletin but the bulletin is not, per se, a notice and there is no requirement for me to read the bulletin. Was the bulletin delivered personally by hand and the delivery recorded? Was it mailed?

My understanding is that an "actor" is given proper notice when an authority "provides notice to the person by oral or written communication." I understand that to mean that you must be personally and individually addressed. You may verbally advise me and/or give into my possession a document which specifically describes the prohibition of concealed weapons per PC 30.06. Mentioning it in a routine document which covers a host of topics and which has no requirement to be read or acknowledged does not appear to meet the requirements of the law.

Would it be valid posted on the Church website? Does it count if the PC 30.06 is read to the children's Sunday School Class if they are instructed to inform their parents?

Though I am not a lawyer, and I give praise for that, I understand that I must be informed directly and am not subject to any restriction that is not brought to my personal attention.

I, respectfully, suggest that you bring this to the attention of your Instructor and I further suggest that you get a second opinion.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:04:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:05:21 AM EDT by _DR]
Tagged
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:59:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kcobean:
I'd love to carry in Church, but on the scale of risk, that one hour or two per week that I spend in church isn't worth the Class 4 misdemeanor conviction if someone should spot it. On the other hand, here is the actual VA statute:

###########################
§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
############################

Good and sufficient reason could be just about anything, or nothing at all, depending on the LEO you have to deal with. I love vague laws.



+1

When I was a Pastor in Virginia I carried all the time.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:25:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:

I was also told in my recent class that the weekly bulletin can be used to give notice in lieu of the 30.06 at the door.


I, respectfully, suggest that you bring this to the attention of your Instructor and I further suggest that you get a second opinion.



My instructor (#0001) literally wrote the book in Texas. He's a state congressman and still chairs the committee that has developed our CHL laws over the last ~15 some-odd years.

I don't know that it covers visitors who have never read the bulletin, but I believe it was meant for regular members of the congregation. I couldn't give much more detail than that, but he made a very specific point (more than once) during class about it. I believe the preacher can also tell you verbally.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:08:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:10:07 AM EDT by hamishdhu]

I don't know that it covers visitors who have never read the bulletin, but I believe it was meant for regular members of the congregation.


I agree that the Preacher has the authority to advise you verbally but I have difficulty with the notion that a prohibition on handguns only applies to regular members and not to visitors.

I respect the experience and involvement of your instructor but I have never, ever heard such a statement before. He, like all of us, is entitled to an opinion and his opinion is just as susceptible to error as ours.

I reiterate my personal opinion that posting a prohibition to the legal carry of handguns in the Church bulletin would not stand the test in a court of law. Please consider discussing this issue with a different independent and non-affiliated instructor and I will check with our CHL Instructor.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:52:48 PM EDT
If you intend to carry in church, then it wouldn't hurt to check with the preacher, or your instructor.

Just don't put my words in my instructor's mouth, such as my guess as to why that would be allowable. You are reading way more into my statement than was written.


To quote myself:

"I don't know that it covers visitors who have never read the bulletin, but I believe it was meant for regular members of the congregation."

To quote you:

"I agree that the Preacher has the authority to advise you verbally but I have difficulty with the notion that a prohibition on handguns only applies to regular members and not to visitors."
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By logic2:
Of course I would never ccw into church, I don't have a ccw permit and won't get one because I refuse to exchange my right for a priviledge, however I do open carry into church every sunday!!



Ah! May we know what kind of church it is? Is it a mainstream "denomination," or a small, independent church with a really good attitude toward reality and person responsibility?

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:56:01 AM EDT
Here in Michigan it's illegal to CCW in church without the approval of the pastor. I've never had an issue in church that made me think I'd really want to. I guess if I did, I'd have to sit down with the pastor and find out if he'd mind.

SP

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 1:27:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eli75:
I always do. Why ask the pastor? Nobody needs to know.



Me to
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