Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 7/18/2005 7:05:57 PM EDT
Hey this is a nice set up. The recoil was light and to be honest I only shot it at coke cans at 100 yards on an berm. No I did not hit the one I was aiming at but DAMN I was close. And that mag must hold at least 25 rounds. This nice guy came up while we were shooting with 5 boxes of ammo and offered to let some of us shoot it . Well it did not take long for us to fall over ourselves to load the mags. Hell I let him shoot 2 M1a mags from my Socom. If the ammo was just not so expensive.... Your thoughts.....

Slug-O
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 7:06:35 PM EDT
NO, but wanting to real bad
Link Posted: 7/18/2005 8:58:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2005 8:59:27 PM EDT by Marksman14]
I Have not shot one but plan to in the near future . That would be really [ really completely rediculously radically awesome
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:13:11 AM EDT
I have one very accurate and no recoil ammo is hard to get right now
Mag capacity is 20 rnds
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 5:02:35 AM EDT
My thoughts?

Neat gun, but all but useless. Ammo is too expensive for plinking, does not offer sufficient penetration and expansion for self defense.

Hey, you asked...
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 5:45:14 AM EDT
is there a like to what you have said about penetration and expansion? I would like to know more about this 5.7
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 8:39:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slug-O:
is there a like to what you have said about penetration and expansion? I would like to know more about this 5.7



Start HERE. Dr. Roberts has included ample citations to others studies which show the poor terminal performance of this round. Unfortunately, most of the studies are in scientific journals, which are not posted on the internet. You will have to go to a research library to read them.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 9:13:31 AM EDT
Slug-O

I have one sitting on my side right now. I have religated my 1911's to my safe for now as I feel the 5.7 is a find gun for CCW. There is a great deal of info out there on the ONE SHOT KILLS of the 5.7 round. Check out www.fivesevenforum.com and read the info posted. The data is not from Five-seveN lovers but rather by departments and agencies who use both the P90 PDW and Five-seveN pistol on a daily basis. The US Secret Service and our FBI SWAT teams have now adopted this round. True there isn't as much data on terminal ballistics like the 9mm, 45ACP, etc but the round hasn't been in use for 100 years like the others. Don't be fooled by people that say the round does not expand or fragment. It was never designed to. It was designed to enter the body with 10 to 12 inches of penetration (after going through Level IIA Body Armor) and tumble schreading (sp?) everything in it's path. It does a very good job at that. Every recorded kill has been a "one shot kill" except one incident with most of them as "center mass shots". True the ammo is expensive ($17.00 per fifty rounds of target ammo and $30.00 per fifty rounds of CCW ammo) but there are at least two other ammo manufacturers that I know of that have started producing 5.7 amunition which should hit stores in the next few months driving the cost down.

I use my 5.7 for CCW because it is a gun that has the same foot print as a full sized 1911 and if you can hide the 1911 you can certainly conceal a Five-seveN. It is much lighter than any of my Glocks and with a spare mag you have 41 rounds of devistating (2,100 fps) firepower. You never have to worry if the hollow point 9mm or 45ACP your using is going to clog because the 5.7 will penetrate any clothing a BG happens to be wearing. This round does not over penetrate like the 357 magnum, and the felt recoil is so light (much less than 9mm) that follow up shots and double taps are very easy. This is not the "end all be all" of guns but it certainly has a place in my stable and I wouldn't hesitate to use if for CCW.

Just my limited .02
MadDog

Link Posted: 7/19/2005 9:20:34 AM EDT
Hello MadDogDan,

Would you be planning on coming out to any arfcom GA shoots this year? I would like to try couple rounds of 5.7 if you won't mind.

At 2100fps, I sense real pain for the person on the receiving end of this gun.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 9:22:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 9:44:43 AM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
My thoughts?

Neat gun, but all but useless. Ammo is too expensive for plinking, does not offer sufficient penetration and expansion for self defense.

Hey, you asked...



I'm not looking to get into another 5.7x28 ballistics debate, but the 5.7 (SS192 and SS195) actually doesn't expand at all. It tumbles like the SS190.

Slug-O, the terminal ballistics of the 5.7x28mm are a constantly debated issue. In case you are wondering, penetration with SS192 out of the Five-seveN is 8 to 10 inches. If that isn't enough penetration for you, you may wait a few months until FN releases the new SS197 round, which is predicted to get about 12 inches penetration out of the Five-seveN. The ammo cost can be awful, but it should come down significantly, as Fiocchi ammo in Ozark, MO will begin loading the 5.7 in August-September. In case you would still like to know more about the Five-seveN, here is a link:

The Five-seveN Forum

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 9:54:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 9:55:30 AM EDT by MadDogDan]
Graziani -

Where are the GA ARFcom shoots? I shoot the regular bimonthly 3-gun tac matches out at Riverbend. Are they anywhere near there?

Maddog
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 10:35:36 AM EDT
I've only been to 1 group shoot at Charlie Elliot off I-20, but I'm pretty new to the gun hobby It was awesome, I've never seen so many ARs and others in one place.

Usually the group shoot is at CE or FOP near Birmingham, AL. But I think several guys are trying to make a semi-routine group shoots somewhere near Atlanta and one near Macon.

There's group shoot thread or two in Hometown forum under GA.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 10:41:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 10:42:43 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
Slug-O

I have one sitting on my side right now. I have religated my 1911's to my safe for now as I feel the 5.7 is a find gun for CCW. There is a great deal of info out there on the ONE SHOT KILLS of the 5.7 round. Check out www.fivesevenforum.com and read the info posted. The data is not from Five-seveN lovers but rather by departments and agencies who use both the P90 PDW and Five-seveN pistol on a daily basis. The US Secret Service and our FBI SWAT teams have now adopted this round. True there isn't as much data on terminal ballistics like the 9mm, 45ACP, etc but the round hasn't been in use for 100 years like the others. Don't be fooled by people that say the round does not expand or fragment. It was never designed to. It was designed to enter the body with 10 to 12 inches of penetration (after going through Level IIA Body Armor) and tumble schreading (sp?) everything in it's path. It does a very good job at that. Every recorded kill has been a "one shot kill" except one incident with most of them as "center mass shots". True the ammo is expensive ($17.00 per fifty rounds of target ammo and $30.00 per fifty rounds of CCW ammo) but there are at least two other ammo manufacturers that I know of that have started producing 5.7 amunition which should hit stores in the next few months driving the cost down.

I use my 5.7 for CCW because it is a gun that has the same foot print as a full sized 1911 and if you can hide the 1911 you can certainly conceal a Five-seveN. It is much lighter than any of my Glocks and with a spare mag you have 41 rounds of devistating (2,100 fps) firepower. You never have to worry if the hollow point 9mm or 45ACP your using is going to clog because the 5.7 will penetrate any clothing a BG happens to be wearing. This round does not over penetrate like the 357 magnum, and the felt recoil is so light (much less than 9mm) that follow up shots and double taps are very easy. This is not the "end all be all" of guns but it certainly has a place in my stable and I wouldn't hesitate to use if for CCW.

Just my limited .02
MadDog




Please point out a credible source that show FBI regional SWAT uses the P90 or Five-seveN. USES, not tried them out once. Also, this one-shot-stop crap is pure bull. Please post a LIST of ALL the shootings of which you speak. Please include the SOURCE used to confirm the "one shot kill" for each shooting. If you cannot do this, then I will assume you are just blowing smoke. The 5.56 round used in the M16 shoots a heavier round going much faster and does not have a 100% one shot stop (whatever that means) record.

Please also point out the study that found the 5.7 would penetrate 10-12 inches AFTER penetrating Level IIa armor. The tests done by Dr. Fackler, Dr. Roberts, David DiFabio, and others have not gotten that kind of penetration in bare gelatin. Perhaps the rounds speeds up when it hits the vest? FN's own tests show less than 10 inches of penetration in bare gelatin (25 cm = 9.8 inches).


DiFabio's tests show that the actual volume of tissue destroyed by the 5.7 round is only 40% of that destroyed by good 124 gr. 9mm loads. That is LESS THAN HALF of the wound volume, with both smaller diameter, and depth of the wound cavity. So please explain how penetrating less deeply and destroying less than half the tissue can end up being 100% fatal, when about 80% of people shot with 9mm rounds (which penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue) survive.

Perhaps the 5.7 round is imbued with some mystical dark powers that defy the laws of physics?

Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:00:09 AM EDT
PAEBR332 -

It would be a waste of my time to try and copy all of the information you require. If you truely want it then go the the link that DmL5 posted above. I assure you it is there if you look. The information you have posted is old and outdated. And quite frankly you used it for your same argument seven or eight months ago here on ARFcom. Since then, there has been a lot more information available to the general public. There is tons of new evidence to support this round's success, you just haven't read it (which you can if you go to the site). It is obvious you are not a supporter of the 5.7 round but I urge anyone interested to investigate for themselves and form their own opinions.

MadDog
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:16:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 11:34:01 AM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Please point out a credible source that show FBI regional SWAT uses the P90 or Five-seveN. USES, not tried them out once. Also, this one-shot-stop crap is pure bull. Please post a LIST of ALL the shootings of which you speak. Please include the SOURCE used to confirm the "one shot kill" for each shooting. If you cannot do this, then I will assume you are just blowing smoke. The 5.56 round used in the M16 shoots a heavier round going much faster and does not have a 100% one shot stop (whatever that means) record.



Wow, suddenly you change from seeming to be an "unbiased Five-seveN owner" to this. I have already gone through all of these points with you multiple times, don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. The overpenetration of the 5.56 doesn't kill people any better than 8 to 10 inches when the average human torso is 9.4 inches. This has been shown in real world shootings. To date, no 5.7 round has exited the body of a victim shot with it. Nor has anyone survived being shot with it. Remember that quote I posted from the tactical operator on this board, or should I post it again? No-one has survived a COM hit with the 5.7x28.




The tests done by Dr. Fackler, Dr. Roberts, David DiFabio, and others have not gotten that kind of penetration in bare gelatin.


Actually, none of those Dr's have released penetration numbers from their testing. Why? Because the actual numbers undermine their assertions that the round doesn't give sufficient penetration.




FN's own tests show less than 10 inches of penetration in bare gelatin (25 cm = 9.8 inches).
www.fnherstal.com/html/57/574.jpg



That is a 20% gelatin mix, in which the 5.7 does not penetrate as deep. Here is a 10% example:



34 cm = 13.4 inches penetration.




DiFabio's tests show that the actual volume of tissue destroyed by the 5.7 round is only 40% of that destroyed by good 124 gr. 9mm loads. That is LESS THAN HALF of the wound volume, with both smaller diameter, and depth of the wound cavity.


Difabio states (in response to the Brady campaign) that the Five-seveN would have been of use in the Texas shooting (where the suspect was wearing soft armor). Not only that, but he also states the 9mm and .357 sig are better at penetrating soft armor and goes on to say that the SS192 will not penetrate Level II soft armor. (when it actually penetrates up to Level IIIA, as seen in a very large number of tests) It's nonsensical.

Please let me refute another statement made by one of your experts.. Dr Roberts stated that "use of the 5.7 x 28mm weapon system is a good way to ensure mission failure". This is completely false. This round has been in general use for the past decade with hundreds of operators in dozens of PD's and SF/CT units in over 30 countries. Not once has any operator been killed or even injured due to insufficient performance, let alone has it caused a "mission failure".





So please explain how penetrating less deeply and destroying less than half the tissue can end up being 100% fatal, when about 80% of people shot with 9mm rounds (which penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue) survive.


It doesn't matter whether or not you think the 5.7 capable of being 100% fatal. It is a fact that no-one has survived being shot with it. You were already aware of this before you even posted, as I have told you this many times.


-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:25:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
PAEBR332 -

It would be a waste of my time to try and copy all of the information you require. If you truely want it then go the the link that DmL5 posted above. I assure you it is there if you look. The information you have posted is old and outdated. And quite frankly you used it for your same argument seven or eight months ago here on ARFcom. Since then, there has been a lot more information available to the general public. There is tons of new evidence to support this round's success, you just haven't read it (which you can if you go to the site). It is obvious you are not a supporter of the 5.7 round but I urge anyone interested to investigate for themselves and form their own opinions.

MadDog



Actually, DmL5 has been whoring his "list" all over the internet. He got laughed off Tactical Forums for it. This list is a handful of shootings. In his favorite one, from Houston, the guy was shot MULTIPLE times, including by several 5.56 rounds.

POST THE LIST!!! If not, I call
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:28:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 11:28:39 AM EDT by DmL5]
PAEBR332,

Here is the quote you are actually quite familiar with..


Quote: "As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90."


-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:31:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Actually, DmL5 has been whoring his "list" all over the internet. He got laughed off Tactical Forums for it. This list is a handful of shootings. In his favorite one, from Houston, the guy was shot MULTIPLE times, including by several 5.56 rounds.

POST THE LIST!!! If not, I call



I'm not posting the list again. I have already done it for you multiple times. Don't act unknowing. There have been over a dozen shootings, not the handful you are talking about. In the Houston shooting the 5.56 rounds impacted on the hands/arms of the subject, of which you were already aware. Stop spouting misinformation.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:33:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 11:38:26 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Please point out a credible source that show FBI regional SWAT uses the P90 or Five-seveN. USES, not tried them out once. Also, this one-shot-stop crap is pure bull. Please post a LIST of ALL the shootings of which you speak. Please include the SOURCE used to confirm the "one shot kill" for each shooting. If you cannot do this, then I will assume you are just blowing smoke. The 5.56 round used in the M16 shoots a heavier round going much faster and does not have a 100% one shot stop (whatever that means) record.



Wow, suddenly you change from seeming to be an "unbiased Five-seveN owner" to this. I have already gone through all of these points with you multiple times, don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about. The overpenetration of the 5.56 doesn't kill people any better than 8 to 10 inches when the average human torso is 9.4 inches. This has been shown in real world shootings. To date, no 5.7 round has exited the body of a victim shot with it. Nor has anyone survived being shot with it. Remember that quote I posted from the tactical operator on this board, or should I post it again? No-one has survived a COM hit with the 5.7x28.




The tests done by Dr. Fackler, Dr. Roberts, David DiFabio, and others have not gotten that kind of penetration in bare gelatin.


Actually, none of those Dr's have released penetration numbers from their testing. Why? Because the actual numbers undermine their assertions that the round doesn't give sufficient penetration.




FN's own tests show less than 10 inches of penetration in bare gelatin (25 cm = 9.8 inches).
www.fnherstal.com/html/57/574.jpg



That is a 20% gelatin mix, in which the 5.7 does not penetrate as deep. Here is a 10% example:

img286.imageshack.us/img286/2404/ss190gel0ft.th.gif</a>

34 cm = 13.4 inches penetration.




DiFabio's tests show that the actual volume of tissue destroyed by the 5.7 round is only 40% of that destroyed by good 124 gr. 9mm loads. That is LESS THAN HALF of the wound volume, with both smaller diameter, and depth of the wound cavity.


Difabio states (in response to the Brady campaign) that the Five-seveN would have been of use in the Texas shooting (where the suspect was wearing soft armor). Not only that, but he also states the 9mm and .357 sig are better at penetrating soft armor and goes on to say that the SS192 will not penetrate Level II soft armor. (when it actually penetrates up to Level IIIA, as seen in a very large number of tests) It's nonsensical. Please let me refute another statement made by one of your experts.. Docter Roberts stated that "use of the 5.7 x 28mm weapon system is a good way to ensure mission failure". This is completely false. This round has been in general use for the past decade with hundreds of operators in dozens of PD's and SF/CT units in over 30 countries. Not once has any operator been killed or even injured due to insufficient performance, let alone has it caused a "mission failure".




So please explain how penetrating less deeply and destroying less than half the tissue can end up being 100% fatal, when about 80% of people shot with 9mm rounds (which penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue) survive.


It doesn't matter whether or not you think the 5.7 capable of being 100% fatal. It is a fact that no-one has survived being shot with it. You were already aware of this before you even posted, as I have told you this many times.


-DmL



Cute. POST THE LIST!!! Or it is all

As for your lame gelatin test picture, where is it from? It shows no calibration BB. WHO DID THIS TEST??? Check the properties of the one I posted. IT IS FROM FN's OWN PAGE!!! Fackler, Roberts and DiFabio have published their penetration numbers, just not on the internet, where only keyboard commandos can see them. Well DiFabio has his posted on the internet, but on a pay site.

You really should work for FN marketing. Or maybe you do? That would explain why it appears to be the only topic you post about.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:36:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Actually, DmL5 has been whoring his "list" all over the internet. He got laughed off Tactical Forums for it. This list is a handful of shootings. In his favorite one, from Houston, the guy was shot MULTIPLE times, including by several 5.56 rounds.

POST THE LIST!!! If not, I call



I'm not posting the list again. I have already done it for you multiple times. Don't act unknowing. There have been over a dozen shootings, not the handful you are talking about. In the Houston shooting the 5.56 rounds impacted on the hands/arms of the subject, of which you were already aware. Stop spouting misinformation.

-DmL



POST THE LINK THAT SHOW THIS TO BE TRUE FOR THE HOUSTON SHOOTING!!! You are the one claiming the round has mystical killing power. It is YOU who must prove it. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Carl Sagan.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:46:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
POST THE LINK THAT SHOW THIS TO BE TRUE FOR THE HOUSTON SHOOTING!!! You are the one claiming the round has mystical killing power. It is YOU who must prove it. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Carl Sagan.



Calm down, buddy. It's just a gun. As I said earlier, (after it has had years of service in multiple countries) no-one's life is at stake because of this round. You therefore cannot justify your extreme dislike of this round.

I posted the link awhile back about the 5.56 shots in the Houston shooting. It doesn't work anymore. It's your own fault you missed it.

I made no extraordinary claims. No-one has survived being shot with this round. That's a fact, not a claim.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:49:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 11:49:34 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
POST THE LINK THAT SHOW THIS TO BE TRUE FOR THE HOUSTON SHOOTING!!! You are the one claiming the round has mystical killing power. It is YOU who must prove it. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Carl Sagan.



Calm down, buddy. It's just a gun. As I said earlier, (after it has had years of service in multiple countries) no-one's life is at stake because of this round. You therefore cannot justify your extreme dislike of this round.

I posted the link awhile back about the 5.56 shots in the Houston shooting. It doesn't work anymore. It's your own fault you missed it.

I made no extraordinary claims. No-one has survived being shot with this round. That's a fact, not a claim.

-DmL



I did not miss the link. It was an article by Sandy Wall. It did not mention the facts your are claiming. I see you areno longer making the disproven "split the heart in two" claim for the Houston shooting.

POST THE LIST OR STOP POSTING .
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:49:56 AM EDT

As for your lame gelatin test picture


Correct. Lame because it contradicts what you would like to believe. Sorry for posting it.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:56:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 11:58:10 AM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
I did not miss the link. It was an article by Sandy Wall. It did not mention the facts your are claiming. I see you areno longer making the disproven "split the heart in two" claim for the Houston shooting.

POST THE LIST OR STOP POSTING .



No it was not an article by Sandy Wall. Reports on the Houston shooting give slightly different details. Some say the round split the heart of the subject, others say the subject's chest cavity when opened up "was like ground up hamburger meat". You can pick either one.

There is no "list". It is a collection of accounts I have found and I have already posted many of them for you in the past. There is no need to post them again as you clearly have no intention of listening to anything that contradicts you.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 11:58:12 AM EDT
PAEBR332 -

You can claim BS or anything else you like, but facts are facts and data is data and the information is certainly out there if you just "read" it. Extraordinary claims do not need extraordinary proof. They just need proof period. If you find it extraordianry fine, that's up to you. If the acumulated data shows that no-one has survived any COM hits then no-one has survived any COM hits, period. Look at it any way you want, but it is what it is. And as far as DmL getting laughed off of other Tactical sites? I have been on most of the sites out there and haven't seen it, so as you like to say, post it our I call BS.

MadDog

Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:25:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 12:28:55 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
And as far as DmL getting laughed off of other Tactical sites? I have been on most of the sites out there and haven't seen it, so as you like to say, post it our I call BS.



I believe he was referring to the time I had this debate at "Tactical Forums". Not only do the members at TF have an axe to grind (as seen in some of their claims) but the discussion was also over a year ago when I had very little information on the 5.7x28mm.

Note a couple claims made there:

"Sandy Wall of HPD now works for FN" (disproven multiple times by FN)
"The Secret Service only use the P90 for specific missions" (also incredibly false)

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:32:15 PM EDT
Jesus fucking christ guys.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:40:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 12:41:19 PM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
I did not miss the link. It was an article by Sandy Wall. It did not mention the facts your are claiming. I see you areno longer making the disproven "split the heart in two" claim for the Houston shooting.

POST THE LIST OR STOP POSTING .



No it was not an article by Sandy Wall. Reports on the Houston shooting give slightly different details. Some say the round split the heart of the subject, others say the subject's chest cavity when opened up "was like ground up hamburger meat". You can pick either one.

There is no "list". It is a collection of accounts I have found and I have already posted many of them for you in the past. There is no need to post them again as you clearly have no intention of listening to anything that contradicts you.

-DmL



I am glad you finally admit it is just a gourp of accounts you have haphazardly collected from the internet. So your claim that it is 100% fatal is only valid for this handful of accounts you found. Not to mention that, well you found them on the internet and they might just be made up, or greatly embellished...

So how accurate are these "accounts" you have collected. Let's examine one of your favorites: The Houston shooting trumpeted by Sandy Wall. In this thread at Tactical Forums, you made the claim

Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that.
You linked to an article by Sandy Wall. Later, on page two of the same thread, you failed to provide a source for the coroner's comment, but IMPLIED that

It wasn't in Sandy Wall's article because he considered it too graphic for the general audience...
Where did you get the information about what the coroner said? It was not from Sandy Wall. It was not in the USSS report on the shooting. Did you talk to the coroner? This story simply reeks of keyboard commando B.S.

If that is an example of the "facts" on which you rest your case, it is a very shaky basis indeed.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:53:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 5:00:54 PM EDT by anon23bf]
It's time for...

IBTL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 12:53:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 12:57:44 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
I am glad you finally admit it is just a gourp of accounts you have haphazardly collected from the internet. So your claim that it is 100% fatal is only valid for this handful of accounts you found.



My claim is valid for every shooting that has occurred. What are you talking about? No-one has survived being shot with it. That means no-one.


Where did you get the information about what the coroner said? It was not from Sandy Wall. It was not in the USSS report on the shooting. Did you talk to the coroner?


We have already been through this, PAEBR. The information about the coroner, as well as the information about the heart damage, as well as all of that other information came from a thread on this site in which a respected team member provided this information. He acquired the information from multiple police departments as well as FN. I have linked to the thread several times in the past but it is no longer available.

Do you know for a fact that the information wasn't in the USSS report? No, you do not. As I said, the members in that thread made many false claims, some of them regarding the Secret Service. Their credibility in the ballistic community is at stake and they have shown that they will make blatantly false claims to defend it. Sandy Wall does not work at FN and the US Secret Service CAT are using the P-90 as their primary weapon.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 1:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
I am glad you finally admit it is just a gourp of accounts you have haphazardly collected from the internet. So your claim that it is 100% fatal is only valid for this handful of accounts you found.



My claim is valid for every shooting that has occurred. What are you talking about? No-one has survived being shot with it. That means no-one.


Where did you get the information about what the coroner said? It was not from Sandy Wall. It was not in the USSS report on the shooting. Did you talk to the coroner?


We have already been through this, PAEBR. The information about the coroner, as well as the information about the heart damage, as well as all of that other information came from a thread on this site in which a respected team member provided this information. He acquired the information from multiple police departments as well as FN. I have linked to the thread several times in the past but it is no longer available.

Do you know for a fact that the information wasn't in the USSS report? No, you do not. As I said, the members in that thread made many false claims, some of them regarding the Secret Service. Their credibility in the ballistic community is at stake and they have shown that they will make blatantly false claims to defend it. Sandy Wall does not work at FN and the US Secret Service CAT are using the P-90 as their primary weapon.

-DmL



YOU have made the outrageous claim that the 5.7 round has been 100% fatal in ALL shootings in the entire world. This would be the only round in the history of man with such a record. YOU need to back that up by presenting verifiable sources. If you cannot, it is just .

Who told you the heart was cut in two in the Houston shooting? You are not the NY Times protectng a confidential source. Reveal the NAME of your source so that it can be verfied. Or is it one of those top secret "If I told you I would have to kill you" things?

So you have single handedly undermined the credibility of the top experts in the field of wound ballisitics, and now they are spreading blatant lies to undercut you? You may want to up your lithium dosage Sparky.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 1:28:18 PM EDT
This thread is stupid.

<----unimpressed by the 5.7.

<----mesmerized by the fact that there are people nuts enough to CCW one.

Link Posted: 7/19/2005 1:30:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 3:07:12 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
YOU have made the outrageous claim that the 5.7 round has been 100% fatal in ALL shootings in the entire world.



No I did not make the claim and no it is not outrageous. I re-posted it.




Who told you the heart was cut in two in the Houston shooting? You are not the NY Times protectng a confidential source. Reveal the NAME of your source so that it can be verfied.


No-one told me anything. I already told you that the information that was posted came from several police departments using the weapon as well as from FN. If you would like to know who at these PD's and who at FN gave out this information, feel free to research it.




So you have single handedly undermined the credibility of the top experts in the field of wound ballisitics, and now they are spreading blatant lies to undercut you?


No I have not. The round's performance in real life shootings undermines their credibility, as well as anyone who relays information on this performance. I re-posted information from these shootings. Therefore, they needed to get me off of their site immediately. And are they not blatant lies? Please tell me. Tell me if the Secret Service only use the P-90 for specific missions and tell me if Sandy Wall works for FN. I can give you the user name of a member of this board who works with the US Secret Service and you can ask him about this. Also there are several high up people at FN you could contact who will clear up the claim about Sandy Wall.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 4:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 4:17:47 PM EDT by PAEBR332]
DmL5:

Still no name of your "source."

You on page one of this thread:

No-one has survived a COM hit with the 5.7x28.


People have survived COM hits from .50 BMG rounds. Your sample size (since you won't post the list, I am going to guess 10 shootings) is far too small to draw any conclusions. Especially since you do not have ALL shootings done with this round. If 10 is all that have taken place since it's introduction, then I am going to buy one because its' mere presence repels evil-doers. I mean, you keep telling us about how all the top high-speed, low-drag types the world over are so in love with this round. Surely they have shot more than 10 people in the past several years?


BTW, do you even own any guns? Are you old enough to own a gun? In all the threads you have posted on the 5.7, I have never read once of your actual EXPERIENCE shooting one. You sound like some 15 year-old keyboard commando with an internet connection and an obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 4:12:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 5:17:57 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

<----mesmerized by the fact that there are people nuts enough to CCW one.



I guess that would mean that the below agencies are also nuts..

Abu Dhabi Security Forces
Austrian Heeresnachrichtenamt Special Unit
Austrian Jagdkommando Special Unit
Belgian Air Force
Belgian DSU
Belgian Navy PCB
Belgian Special Forces Group
Belgian VIP Close Protection
CNDA Halifax, Nova Scotia LE Agency
CNDA Montreal, Quebec LE Agency
Cyprus Army Special Forces
Cyprus National Guard
Dominican Republic CT Unit
Dutch Army KCT
Dutch Marines BBE
El Salvador Armed Forces
French Army Special Forces
French COS
French GIGN
French Navy COFUSCO
French RAID Group
French Special Forces VIP Protection
German BKA
Greek EKAM Elite Unit
Irish Army's ARW
Israeli SABACH
Italian NOCS Elite Unit
Italian GIS Elite Unit
Jordan Armed Forces
Kuwaiti Armed Forces
Lebanese VIP Protection
Nepalese Armed Forces
Norwegian Special Forces
Oman Armed Forces
Pakistan Army Special Services Group
Peruvian Special Forces
Peruvian VIP Protection
Philippine Army Rangers
Philippine National Police SAF
Philippine Special Forces Regiment
Portuguese Navy DAE
Portuguese Police GOE
Saudi Arabian Special Forces
Singapore Army Special Forces
Spanish GEO CT Unit
Suriname Armed Forces
Swedish Armed Forces
Thai Special Forces
US Atlanta, GA PD
US Austin, TX PD
US Belleview, NE PD
US Bentonville, AR PD
US Benton County, AR SO
US Birmingham, AL PD
US Burbank, CA PD
US Camden, SC PD
US Charleston County, SC SO
US Columbia, MO PD
US Creve Coeur, MO PD
US Creve Coeur, MT PD
US Dallas, TX PD
US Davidson, NC PD
US Davis County, UT SO
US Doraville, GA PD
US Duluth, GA PD
US Edina, MN PD
US Edmund, OK PD
US Federal Protective Service
US Grand Forks, ND PD
US Greenwood County, SC SO
US Hallsville, MO PD
US Houston, TX PD
US Immigration & Naturalization Service
US Jacksonville, FL PD
US Las Vegas, NV PD
US Lawrenceville, GA PD
US Lexington, SC PD
US Little Rock, AR PD
US MO State Highway Patrol
US Montana Highway Patrol
US North Little Rock, AR PD
US Oakdale, MN PD
US Olathe, KS PD
US Palm Beach, FL PD
US Palm Beach County, FL SO
US Pasco County, FL SO
US Ramsey County, MN SO
US Richland County, SC SO
US Salt Lake City, UT PD
US San Francisco, CA PD
US Secret Service
US Sioux Falls, SD PD
US Slidell, LA PD
US Tennessee State Police
US Washoe County, NV SO
US Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
US Zephyr Hills, FL PD
Venezuelan Army Special Forces

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 4:19:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

<----mesmerized by the fact that there are people nuts enough to CCW one.



I guess that would mean that the below agencies are also nuts..

Abu Dhabi Security Forces
Austrian Heeresnachrichtenamt Special Unit
Austrian Jagdkommando Special Unit
Belgian Air Force
Belgian DSU
Belgian Navy PCB
Belgian Special Forces Group
Belgian VIP Close Protection
CNDA Halifax, Nova Scotia LE Agency
CNDA Montreal, Quebec LE Agency
Cyprus Army Special Forces
Cyprus National Guard
Dominican Republic CT Unit
Dutch Army KCT
Dutch Marines BBE
El Salvador Armed Forces
French Army Special Forces
French COS
French GIGN
French Navy COFUSCO
French RAID Group
French Special Forces VIP Protection
German BKA
Greek EKAM Elite Unit
Irish Army's ARW
Israeli SABACH
Italian NOCS Elite Unit
Italian GIS Elite Unit
Jordan Armed Forces
Kuwaiti Armed Forces
Lebanese VIP Protection
Nepalese Armed Forces
Norwegian Special Forces
Oman Armed Forces
Pakistan Army Special Services Group
Peruvian Special Forces
Peruvian VIP Protection
Philippine Army Rangers
Philippine National Police SAF
Philippine Special Forces Regiment
Portuguese Navy DAE
Portuguese Police GOE
Saudi Arabian Special Forces
Singapore Army Special Forces
Spanish GEO CT Unit
Suriname Armed Forces
Swedish Armed Forces
Thai Special Forces
US Atlanta, GA PD
US Austin, TX PD
US Belleview, NE PD
US Bentonville, AR PD
US Benton County, AR SO
US Birmingham, AL PD
US Burbank, CA PD
US Camden, SC PD
US Charleston County, SC SO
US Columbia, MO PD
US Creve Coeur, MO PD
US Dallas, TX PD
US Davidson, NC PD
US Davis County, UT SO
US Doraville, GA PD
US Duluth, GA PD
US Edina, MN PD
US Edmund, OK PD
US Federal Protective Service
US Grand Forks, ND PD
US Greenwood County, SC SO
US Hallsville, MO PD
US Houston, TX PD
US Immigration & Naturalization Service
US Jacksonville, FL PD
US Las Vegas, NV PD
US Lawrenceville, GA PD
US Lexington, SC PD
US Little Rock, AR PD
US MO State Highway Patrol
US Montana Highway Patrol
US North Little Rock, AR PD
US Oakdale, MN PD
US Olathe, KS PD
US Palm Beach, FL PD
US Palm Beach County, FL SO
US Pasco County, FL SO
US Ramsey County, MN SO
US Richland County, SC SO
US Salt Lake City, UT PD
US San Francisco, CA PD
US Secret Service
US Sioux Falls, SD PD
US Slidell, LA PD
US Tennessee State Police
US Washoe County, NV SO
US Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
US Zephyr Hills, FL PD
Venezuelan Army Special Forces

-DmL



So all those agencies have only managed to shoot about 10 people in over four years? Wow, it really does repel evil-doers through its mere presence in the area.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 5:05:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Still no name of your "source."



And there will be no name. The credibility of information from PD's or FN really doesn't depend on who it comes from. You aren't interested in the info anyway and it would do nothing to convince you of anything.




People have survived COM hits from .50 BMG rounds.


This is irrelevant, because such an event is very rare. I'm sure people will eventually survive COM hits from the 5.7x28mm.




Your sample size (since you won't post the list, I am going to guess 10 shootings) is far too small to draw any conclusions. Especially since you do not have ALL shootings done with this round.


The number is more than 10 shootings and I already said it is not a "list". I do not need to have details from all the shootings, because I know it worked in all of them.




In all the threads you have posted on the 5.7, I have never read once of your actual EXPERIENCE shooting one. You sound like some 15 year-old keyboard commando with an internet connection and an obsessive-compulsive disorder.


I don't understand why you ask questions that have already been answered. I don't own a Five-seveN, I said so in the 9-page thread you seem to have forgot. I will counter that by saying that you have not cited any experience with the weapon either. Why ask me if I have had any experience with it, when you haven't yourself?

I am not 15 yrs. old, so your bashing is pointless. The last time I had this discussion with you, you turned to this as well. I'll debate with you and argue on this topic, but I will not continue when you turn to bashing and ad hominem.

I do not intend to reply to any more of your ad hominem. It was clear from your first response to MadDog that you aren't in this to learn anything. Hopefully, someone else will get something out of this discussion.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 5:07:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
So all those agencies have only managed to shoot about 10 people in over four years? Wow, it really does repel evil-doers through its mere presence in the area.



You dodged my question. Are all of those agencies nuts?

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 6:14:26 PM EDT
so tagged....stay tuned for pics.

(shamless plug)


Link Posted: 7/19/2005 6:32:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 6:33:15 PM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
So all those agencies have only managed to shoot about 10 people in over four years? Wow, it really does repel evil-doers through its mere presence in the area.



You dodged my question. Are all of those agencies nuts?

-DmL



Not nuts, but possibly misinformed. Perhaps you could post a list of all the agencies worldwide that use the 9mm in some capacity? We could then compare the lists. It would prove nothing more about the 9mm than your silly list does about the 5.7. You also provided no data on how many weapons each agency acquired. If they bought one to test, and decided it was not what they needed, they could still be listed as "using" the weapons.

So, yet again I will ask for your SOURCE of your information. Where did the list come from? Without a credible source, it is just so much internet .

Are you noticing a trend? You post "information." I ask for your source, so that the information can be verified. You have yet to confirm a single source. And round and round it goes...
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 6:21:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 4:45:29 AM EDT by pillbox]
I love full power .30 caliber rifles and .357 and .45acp handguns, but the one thing I dont like is the tactical forums, I have never seen such a hive of unpleasent bastards in my life.....im to the point with anything to do with them, that if they said the sky was blue ,and in reality it was, I still wouldnt give a shit because it came from them. They have good knowledge, but is rammed down others throats in a mannor that gets them nowhere. Out side thier own cult nobody really cares what they say because of how they have to say it to the unwashed masses. wait while I calibrate a burgler with a BB, oh wait every person{target} is different so that screws up my statistical ballistification oh wait..let me go get on my what would doc do bracelet...oh wait rofl
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 8:44:21 AM EDT

Not nuts, but possibly misinformed.


Nearly all of them did extensive testing of their own before adoption. They are therefore either "nuts", or correct in their decision to adopt the weapon; you decide.


It would prove nothing more about the 9mm than your silly list does about the 5.7.


Actually the 5.7 list proves a lot, if you respect the agencies I listed. The GIGN are very well-known in the counter-terrorism arena. Are you saying all of those agencies would adopt a weapon for general use with the ballistics of a .22LR? The article you posted from Dr Roberts makes that claim about the ballistics of the 5.7x28mm.


If they bought one to test, and decided it was not what they needed, they could still be listed as "using" the weapons.


I did not include agencies that evaluated it. Also there are a very large number of rumored users that I did not include.





So, yet again I will ask for your SOURCE of your information. Where did the list come from?


Are you asking about the users list or the shootings? If about the shootings, I have already told you. If about the list, I compiled it based on pictures of the weapon in service (take note, not evaluation) with that particular unit. I can also tell you to what degree the weapon is in use with each unit, but I've already done this in the past. Nearly all of the users are using it in general roles and many of them replaced their previous MP5's/AR15's with it.


Are you noticing a trend? You post "information." I ask for your source, so that the information can be verified. You have yet to confirm a single source. And round and round it goes...


Actually, I noticed a trend from the very start. I post information, you ask for my source, I give you my source, and you continue to ask for my source. Also another trend: the 5.7 topic comes up, we argue and you ask many questions relating to the usage of the weapons etc, I answer them, the topic dies down and a similar topic comes up again later, in which you ask again the same questions and receive the same answers. It obviously doesn't lead anywhere and we can quit right here if you would like. I didn't intend to get back into the ballistics debate but I couldn't stand to see you bring up issues that had already been resolved, especially when you acted at the start like you were simply an unbiased owner of the weapon.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 8:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

<----mesmerized by the fact that there are people nuts enough to CCW one.



I guess that would mean that the below agencies are also nuts..

<snip>
-DmL



Yes.

It would mean they are nuts.

Stupid.

Ignorant.

Suckers for marketing hype, as are you.


Carry what you want, but don't get your feelings hurt when sane people call you stupid for carrying a glorified .22 magnum.


Every one of the agencies listed above (assuming the list is accurate, which I doubt) had the option of carrying better platforms. They chose poorly.


It really is that simple.

Link Posted: 7/20/2005 9:01:23 AM EDT
All I said was"It was fun to shoot, anyone else"? and this happened..... sorry for starting this one
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 9:03:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 9:17:49 AM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By Slug-O:
All I said was"It was fun to shoot, anyone else"? and this happened..... sorry for starting this one



Don't feel bad, it happens to anyone who relates positive experiences with the weapon. I'm sure this has been interesting for you.

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 12:37:44 PM EDT

Suckers for marketing hype, as are you.


Many of them did extensive ballistic testing of their own. "Marketing hype" had nothing to do with it.


carrying a glorified .22 magnum.


The 5.7x28 and the .22 WMR aren't comparable at all. Name for me a .22 WMR that gets 2150 fps out of a 4.75-inch barrel. Actually, out of a 4-inch barrel a .22 WMR gets 1300 to 1400 fps. That is a drop of 850 to 950 fps, so there goes your favorite comparison.


They chose poorly.


Give me proof of this. They're still using them on a daily basis just as they were 5-10 years ago. It hasn't got anyone killed or injured. So why was it a poor choice?

-DmL
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 12:59:02 PM EDT
Give it up Sparky.

Velocity and energy figures are meaningless. Bullets incapacitate and kill by destroying vital tissue. The 5.7 round lacks sufficient penetration and wound volume to do so consistently. The random stories you found on the internet about it's incredible lethal prowess do not add up to a hill of beans. That and your list of agencies "using" it, collected from pictures you found on the internet.

Maybe I was generous thinking you were 15. I seem to have guessed too high.

Do you own ANY guns? Any at all?
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 1:32:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 1:35:52 PM EDT by DmL5]
If bullet weights/velocities are meaningless, then why did you note the higher velocity/heavier bullet of the 5.56 in your first response to MadDog? Here is what you said:


The 5.56 round used in the M16 shoots a heavier round going much faster and does not have a 100% one shot stop (whatever that means) record.


Troll. Since you've turned back to bashing/ad hominem I am done talking to you, and no you did not guess too high on my age. BTW, while we're talking ad hominem, let me point out again that if no-one has been killed or injured carrying this round, you have zero justification for your frenzied whining about a mere gun.

Take note that your next bash post will not receive a reply.

It's been nice,
-DmL
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 4:07:30 PM EDT
MadDogDan,
You like your 5.7 alot? I have a friend who is a Secret Service agent, and he has been wanting to get one for himself. He has been getting me thinking about one also. He gets to shoot the 5.7's often and really likes the way they shoot. I'll have to probe him for more info about it's performance. Been debating on whether to or not.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 4:30:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 4:30:54 PM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By DmL5:
If bullet weights/velocities are meaningless, then why did you note the higher velocity/heavier bullet of the 5.56 in your first response to MadDog? Here is what you said:


The 5.56 round used in the M16 shoots a heavier round going much faster and does not have a 100% one shot stop (whatever that means) record.


Troll. Since you've turned back to bashing/ad hominem I am done talking to you, and no you did not guess too high on my age. BTW, while we're talking ad hominem, let me point out again that if no-one has been killed or injured carrying this round, you have zero justification for your frenzied whining about a mere gun.

Take note that your next bash post will not receive a reply.

It's been nice,
-DmL



Because, both you and MadDog seem to think velocity and energy are the MAIN wounding mechanisms. Hint: They are not. Amount of tissue crushed and depth of penetration are the two key wounding mechanisms of bullets.

BTW: DO YOU OWN ANY GUNS??? ANY AT ALL??? It's a really simple yes or no question.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 5:06:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
This thread is stupid.

<----unimpressed by the 5.7.

<----mesmerized by the fact that there are people nuts enough to CCW one.




+1. I don't see all the fuss. 5.7=rich man's plinker.
I'm not gonna carry anything that I haven't put at least 500 rounds through.

Is it controversial? Yep.

Is it proven? That's the "controversial" part.

Last time I checked there was no controversy over a 230 Hyda-shock.

Slug-0,
Man did you open up a can o' shiz If it floats yer boat (and you can afford/find the ammo), then have at it.

Rich
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top