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Posted: 4/16/2007 9:55:22 AM EDT
As a college student I have always wondered what kind of carnage would be handed down with universities being no concealed carry safe zones. Well today we have been given a very vivid example.

We should all be prepared for our gun rights to be legislated away.

Another reason never to expect gov't or police to protect anybody.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:18:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Yeah, I've been watching this on the tele as well...

I've posted on this subject before... recently on the CCW on campus thread.  Campuses are PRIME targets for shooters because 1) you can't possibly put forth an airport-like security system where everyone coming and going is screened and 2) every honest citizen is banned from carrying.

Concealed is concealed.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 10:53:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Exactly.  That's what you can expect in a "gun-free zone."
The question is whether there is one single politician in the United States who will get in front of a TV camera, and say, "That's what you can expect in a 'gun-free zone.'  It didn't work too well, did it?"
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 11:13:05 AM EDT
[#3]
I always carried my 1911 to class when I was in College (90s).

But I was young and dumb then...  Now I carry a Glock!
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 1:36:59 PM EDT
[#4]
I am reconsidering whether or not I will carry on campus. But if I engaged a crazed gunman at school then I would be villified by the media and probably spend the rest of my life in prison for saving lives.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 1:39:30 PM EDT
[#5]
I find this topic very bothersome, being a (back to) college student and a CCW holder.

Out of prudence, I'm not going to say much until all the facts are out, etc. I just hope this is what it looks like, which is "some psychopath on killing spree", and that it wasn't someone who passed any screening, if you catch my drift.

I've seen a few posts on here about college carry laws in Virginia from students, I hope everbody's ok.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 1:49:31 PM EDT
[#6]
height=8
Quoted:
I am reconsidering whether or not I will carry on campus. But if I engaged a crazed gunman at school then I would be villified by the media and probably spend the rest of my life in prison for saving lives.


I carry for self defense. I'm not sure I'd engage a crazed gunman if I didn't have to. I doubt I would attempt to get involved if I wasn't involved, unless the circumstances made it very safe and expedient to involve myself. I'm not real tactically proficient, and I don't want to end up dead trying to play hero. It would be little consolation for my family. Put me in the clocktower @ 500+ yards with my .300 RUM, a ballistics chart and my Kestrel, and I'll take care of all our crazed gunman issues. I'm just not going to inject myself into a deadly situation if I can avoid it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 1:51:13 PM EDT
[#7]
I am still trying to figure out what he had...  The news implied it was a 9mm and a 22LR but I am still looking.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 1:53:41 PM EDT
[#8]
height=8
Quoted:
I am still trying to figure out what he had...  The news implied it was a 9mm and a 22LR but I am still looking.


Hannity said that the police had recovered "two semi-automatic 9mm pistols", another news report made mention of not being sure if he had high capacity magazines capable of holding up to 30 bullets"
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 2:11:38 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am still trying to figure out what he had...  The news implied it was a 9mm and a 22LR but I am still looking.


Hannity said that the police had recovered "two semi-automatic 9mm pistols", another news report made mention of not being sure if he had high capacity magazines capable of holding up to 30 bullets"


If that's true, he either had a shit-ton of ammo, was a very decent shot, or went around capping folks execution style.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is the first and third options
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 3:03:18 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I am reconsidering whether or not I will carry on campus. But if I engaged a crazed gunman at school then I would be villified by the media and probably spend the rest of my life in prison for saving lives.


I carry for self defense. I'm not sure I'd engage a crazed gunman if I didn't have to. I doubt I would attempt to get involved if I wasn't involved, unless the circumstances made it very safe and expedient to involve myself. I'm not real tactically proficient, and I don't want to end up dead trying to play hero. It would be little consolation for my family. Put me in the clocktower @ 500+ yards with my .300 RUM, a ballistics chart and my Kestrel, and I'll take care of all our crazed gunman issues. I'm just not going to inject myself into a deadly situation if I can avoid it.



In a extraordinary situation like today if people do not get involved then 33 people die. I don't know if I will die if I hear gunshots while I am sitting in class. So in self preservation sometimes people have to take the upper hand and eliminate the threat. If you don't save yourself then who will?
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 3:36:35 PM EDT
[#11]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
I am reconsidering whether or not I will carry on campus. But if I engaged a crazed gunman at school then I would be villified by the media and probably spend the rest of my life in prison for saving lives.


I carry for self defense. I'm not sure I'd engage a crazed gunman if I didn't have to. I doubt I would attempt to get involved if I wasn't involved, unless the circumstances made it very safe and expedient to involve myself. I'm not real tactically proficient, and I don't want to end up dead trying to play hero. It would be little consolation for my family. Put me in the clocktower @ 500+ yards with my .300 RUM, a ballistics chart and my Kestrel, and I'll take care of all our crazed gunman issues. I'm just not going to inject myself into a deadly situation if I can avoid it.



In a extraordinary situation like today if people do not get involved then 33 people die. I don't know if I will die if I hear gunshots while I am sitting in class. So in self preservation sometimes people have to take the upper hand and eliminate the threat. If you don't save yourself then who will?


I can agree in principle, and in a him or me situation, I'll be doing my damndest to make it him and not me. However, I'm realistic about my skills as they exist today. I finished second to last the other night at pistol league. I haven't been shooting all winter. I'm not voluntarily engaging the shooter unless either a) the situation is inevitable in which case I would imagine it would be to my benefit to seize the initiative, or b) I'm behind him. If the shots are not coming from the room I'm in, I'm getting the hell out of Dodge. In a moment of bravery, I might cover the main door while everybody else is bolting out the side, but that's about it. Too much risk of me not doing anything but adding my name to the victim list.

If I hear shots coming from an adjacent building, I'm not going to check it out. Not in my job description, skill set, or my family's best interests. I'll leave that to someone with a vest, a shotgun, and room entrance/clearing training.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 4:15:38 PM EDT
[#12]
I still can't decided whether CC on campus would be a good thing or not. Yes Someone could engage a shooter to protect themselves but also what happens when police enter the building and see you with a gun. They're automaticly going to think you are the shooter. This could get you killed or definately treated like a criminal. So I'm unsure if CC really should be allowed.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 5:19:51 PM EDT
[#13]
I've mentioned my feelings about guns on campuses.... I'm dual enrolled at a community college and go to a university full time.  I live on campus at the university.  WE ARE SITTING DUCKS.  The security guards have no guns, the local police cannot babysit us.  If that happening at my engineering school we'd have to resort to throwing books, calculators, calipers, and chairs at him.  We go to school to prepare for our careers and learn to become responsible people, yet we are not allowed to carry and defend ourselves.  It's against state law (MI) to carry in a classroom or resident hall, and the university has a campus wide gun ban.  We go to an from whever we please unchecked and unarmed.  A gunman can come onto campus and be just as free and unchecked.  Something needs to happen......  
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 5:27:16 PM EDT
[#14]
I would engage to try to save others, BUT that's just me. I'm not belittling anyone else's point of view. I've never been accused of being to bright. In all my years as a LEO, I stopped very few people before a shooting. "Evil prevails where good men do nothing."
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 5:46:14 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
I still can't decided whether CC on campus would be a good thing or not. Yes Someone could engage a shooter to protect themselves but also what happens when police enter the building and see you with a gun. They're automaticly going to think you are the shooter. This could get you killed or definately treated like a criminal. So I'm unsure if CC really should be allowed.


Your line of thinking could be applied anywhere though, not just in colleges. If you draw, you take your chances, yup they might think you're a BG too. Better than being shot execution style right? I'd rather die fighting even if it is by friendly fire so to speak...
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:44:00 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
I still can't decided whether CC on campus would be a good thing or not. Yes Someone could engage a shooter to protect themselves but also what happens when police enter the building and see you with a gun. They're automaticly going to think you are the shooter. This could get you killed or definately treated like a criminal. So I'm unsure if CC really should be allowed.

I see you've been reading the antis' playbook......
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 6:48:19 PM EDT
[#17]
height=8
Quoted:
I still can't decided whether CC on campus would be a good thing or not. Yes Someone could engage a shooter to protect themselves but also what happens when police enter the building and see you with a gun. They're automaticly going to think you are the shooter. This could get you killed or definately treated like a criminal. So I'm unsure if CC really should be allowed.hinking.gif


That's not a consideration as to whether CC should be allowed, that is a consideration on whether you choose to CC.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:00:46 AM EDT
[#18]
JER - I'm just trying to look at both sides and maybe start a debate thats all.

NoStockBikes has it right or what I should have said.

Instead of saying allowed I should have said ...would be a good option. When I said allowed I ment at the college/univercity level and not the local/state law level. I live in VA where there is no law against carrying on college/univercity campuses except for UVA.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:14:52 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
I still can't decided whether CC on campus would be a good thing or not. Yes Someone could engage a shooter to protect themselves but also what happens when police enter the building and see you with a gun. They're automaticly going to think you are the shooter. This could get you killed or definately treated like a criminal. So I'm unsure if CC really should be allowed.


That's right!!  Definitely better to avoid a handcuffing, and allow 30 more people to die!!


Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:18:54 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
I would engage to try to save others, BUT that's just me. I'm not belittling anyone else's point of view. I've never been accused of being to bright. In all my years as a LEO, I stopped very few people before a shooting. "Evil prevails where good men do nothing."


Thank god there's ONE man in this thread.  I don't know how anyone who considers himself a MAN could stand by, full armed, while innocent people got killed.


Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:34:47 AM EDT
[#21]
I too feel a moral obligation to protect the lives of others.  As a former LEO who has gone back to college I struggle with this issue.  I have a CCW permit, and carry so much that I only notice when my gun is NOT there.  I have decided to carry two very big folding knives at school (school policy only prohibits firearms) and I sit near the classroom door facing the door if I can.  I spend minimum amount of time on campus.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:45:48 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would engage to try to save others, BUT that's just me. I'm not belittling anyone else's point of view. I've never been accused of being to bright. In all my years as a LEO, I stopped very few people before a shooting. "Evil prevails where good men do nothing."


Thank god there's ONE man in this thread.  I don't know how anyone who considers himself a MAN could stand by, full armed, while innocent people got killed.




Well, there are more then a few of us that would show no reservations to use the tools we carry on a daily basis to stop something like this from happening ASAP!  If a person does not have the strength or comitment to use deadly force when needed, then I dare say these same people should not have a firearm for self defense in the first place.

I carry so that one day I may be able to do something for society which could well mean dropping a scumbag like this before he kills 32 other people!
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:51:29 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Well, there are more then a few of us that would show no reservations to use the tools we carry on a daily basis to stop something like this from happening ASAP!  If a person does not have the strength or comitment to use deadly force when needed, then I dare say these same people should not have a firearm for self defense in the first place.

I carry so that one day I may be able to do something for society which could well mean dropping a scumbag like this before he kills 32 other people!



Dig it!

Can you imagine if one of those kids was part of your family.  And you found out there was a person in the building that could have Killed this asshole, but stood by and did nothing because he was a gutless puke??

Oh man.

Someday life may hand you a test of your manhood.  There are many here who wouldn't even take the test.  Pretty pathetic.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 9:59:26 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Well, there are more then a few of us that would show no reservations to use the tools we carry on a daily basis to stop something like this from happening ASAP!  If a person does not have the strength or comitment to use deadly force when needed, then I dare say these same people should not have a firearm for self defense in the first place.

I carry so that one day I may be able to do something for society which could well mean dropping a scumbag like this before he kills 32 other people!



Dig it!

Can you imagine if one of those kids was part of your family.  And you found out there was a person in the building that could have Killed this asshole, but stood by and did nothing because he was a gutless puke??

Oh man.

Someday life may hand you a test of your manhood.  There are many here who wouldn't even take the test.  Pretty pathetic.


Agreed, if there was anyway possible for me to engage I would. The only exception would be if for some reason me taking action would put my family at more risk. (not that I can really think of a scenario but I'm just saying "if")

I would not be able to look myself in the mirror knowing I had the means, opportunity and ability to prevent innocent deaths but stood by and did nothing.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 11:56:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Hey, I'm working on it. I'm just realistic enough to know my limitations. I want more practice and more training. I'm not a one man SWAT team, and I think it's foolish to think that way. Like I said, maybe if I was trained to do that sort of thing, but I'm just a guy with a gun. My primary responsibility is to myself and my family. If I had all sort of experience at jumping ot from behind an obstacle and putting 6 shots on center of mass in 2 seconds, maybe I'll consider myself on option to be first responder. I'm not there skill-wise, and I'm not gonna orphan my kids pretending I am.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 5:26:50 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
Hey, I'm working on it. I'm just realistic enough to know my limitations. I want more practice and more training. I'm not a one man SWAT team, and I think it's foolish to think that way. Like I said, maybe if I was trained to do that sort of thing, but I'm just a guy with a gun. My primary responsibility is to myself and my family. If I had all sort of experience at jumping ot from behind an obstacle and putting 6 shots on center of mass in 2 seconds, maybe I'll consider myself on option to be first responder. I'm not there skill-wise, and I'm not gonna orphan my kids pretending I am.


In May, 1998, Kip Kinkel walked into his school and started shooting.  A 17-year-old boy, Jake Ryker, charged him and wrestled the gun away from him.  He got shot through the hand, but he flattened the little prick who did the shooting, and he saved many, many lives.

Jake Ryker was not a one man SWAT team.  He was not a fool.  He was not trained to do that sort of thing.  He wasn't even a guy with a gun; he was just a kid without a gun.  He didn't have all sorts of experience jumping out from behind an obstacle and tackling guys with guns.  It's just that he is not a pusillanimous piece of protoplasm.

Have a little faith in yourself.  If a 17-year-old kid can do it, maybe you can too.
Link Posted: 4/17/2007 6:46:18 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hey, I'm working on it. I'm just realistic enough to know my limitations. I want more practice and more training. I'm not a one man SWAT team, and I think it's foolish to think that way. Like I said, maybe if I was trained to do that sort of thing, but I'm just a guy with a gun. My primary responsibility is to myself and my family. If I had all sort of experience at jumping ot from behind an obstacle and putting 6 shots on center of mass in 2 seconds, maybe I'll consider myself on option to be first responder. I'm not there skill-wise, and I'm not gonna orphan my kids pretending I am.


In May, 1998, Kip Kinkel walked into his school and started shooting.  A 17-year-old boy, Jake Ryker, charged him and wrestled the gun away from him.  He got shot through the hand, but he flattened the little prick who did the shooting, and he saved many, many lives.

Jake Ryker was not a one man SWAT team.  He was not a fool.  He was not trained to do that sort of thing.  He wasn't even a guy with a gun; he was just a kid without a gun.  He didn't have all sorts of experience jumping out from behind an obstacle and tackling guys with guns.  It's just that he is not a pusillanimous piece of protoplasm.

Have a little faith in yourself.  If a 17-year-old kid can do it, maybe you can too.

What's really sad about the whole CCW situation is this. Take the about story and lets say it happens somewhere else outside of a school. Put one of us in place of Jake, we pull our weapon and end the situation. Everyone with half a clue knows we did the right thing but now we are in court spending our life savings/kid's college fund to defend ourselves because some POS lawyer needs a new boat. And even if you do avoid the jail time and think it's over, Kip's family refuses to accept they a bad parents and decides to throw a civil case at you.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 4:26:11 AM EDT
[#28]
I live in the VA Tech neighborhood and everyone here has a knife on them. If given the opportunity I'm sure someone there would have used it. Its easy to say you'd use your knife or tackle the guy if you were in that situation. This is the internet you can do anything. But the fact is, you weren't in that situation nor have you probably ever been in a situation like that, so you don't know what you would really do.

Instead of focusing on what you or someone else should do in that situation, why don't we focus on preventing a situation like this. Or why there should be CC on campus.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:03:06 AM EDT
[#29]
I know my high school book bag would stop a round. (I wouldn't know about college, I went to the Army instead).Just monday morning quarterbacking at this point, but something to think about for some of those who do go to school. Books are heavy. So are desks. Bottom line, none of us know unless we were there, and I wasn't. But better to die moving than die on your knees, whether you can take the prick or not.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:33:25 AM EDT
[#30]
www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658


A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.........

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

..........


Irony at its best......

What he's packing?!?!




As everyone says it's called concealed for a reason

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:35:00 AM EDT
[#31]
I just saw a photo in a slide show on MSNBC (from the disk this SOB sent) that shows 9mm hollow points and they look to me to be 115-gr Speer Gold dots  

www.msnbc.msn.com



Of cource, I don't know this was used at all but it's the first hint of ammo that may hev been used in the Glock 19 ...

Kind of chilling to wonder if any of these bullets were used to kill people...

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 11:29:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Around here, that is all that people are thinking about.  Everyone is sad, teary red eyes, everyone I see is wearing VT colors.  I live 45 minutes from the campus, and spend alot of time on the campus and surrounding area of Blacksburg.  Alot of my friends and coworkers graduated from there, along with alot of my family.  Alot of my classmates from high school went there.  I took classes there, its where I first learned true computer troubleshooting which got me started on my dream job that I now work at.  I have clients up there.  I dont know any of the victims personally, but I know alot of people who knew the victims.  Its hard to work with all this going on, everytime I get a few minutes of free time it hits me again.  My coworkers describe it best, its surreal, like it isnt really happening.  I believe this is something that is going to affect everyone for a very long time.

If I was in classes there, and carrying I know I would have at least tried to take this guy out.  Even if I had to stab him in the neck with my keys I would have.  I know that everyone there did what they could, the stories of the heroes (who will not claim to be heroes) that barricaded the doors, the people who were killed or injured trying to help others, those stories just kill me.  I believe in what they did, I would gladly put myself on the line for the sake of others.  I truly believe there is no greater good than to truly put your life on the line for others.  My prayers go out to all the victims, the victims families, and everyone involved around the world.  
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