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Posted: 2/8/2012 4:36:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 10:30:07 PM EDT by Madcap72]
So, tax time is around the corner for me, and I'm thinking about getting a LNIB mod 13-2 at the local store. Price is like 435 or something.


A. It'll replace the Mod-13 that was stolen during a breakin a few years back.


2. it's a sexy, 4" barrel. Have not pulled the pachmeyer rubber grips off to see if it's a round butt. (if it is I'll probably snag it regardless of anything else.)




So, my question is, I've heard people talk about having S&W's cut for moon clips for .38/ .357. How bad does it destroy the value of the gun? (not a primary concern, it'll be a shooter and it's value dropped by me shooting the piss out of it).

Can a cylinder cut for clips still be used without them?

Where is a good place to send the cylinder off to get it done?


Chances are, if I DO get the pistol, I won't have the heart to get it cut for clips. Just a blue sky idea for now.




I have some other options, I.E. buy a RIA tactical, see if I can get a 9mm barrel fitted for my RIA .38 super, or track down a 9mm barrel/ slide for my Eaa Witness.





Link Posted: 2/8/2012 4:42:35 PM EDT
Gotta love model 13's. I've had my 3" heavy barrel, round butt since 1984.

I don't know, but I would think you would not be able to use it without the clips after machining. Personally, I would not do it, but it is your

choice. I still have a few K frame Dade speedloaders and am completely satisfied with that option. But since Dade is no longer available, I

would go with HKS or Safariland if I was going to buy speedloaders now.
Link Posted: 2/8/2012 4:57:59 PM EDT
Yea, I've read a few places they are supposed to still operate just fine loaded traditionally, without the moon clips, I don't know how, "you'd think" with the area machined out of the clip, the rounds would sort of just slop back and forth. Maybe they remove so little material it's not the case.


That's why I'm hoping some one comes along who's done it with a "It's awesome" or "it's not worth it" experience.



I'd love to run across one that was cosmetically trashed, so I could do all sorts of work to it, I.E. lighter trigger return spring, cut for moon clips, maybe stuff a different hammer and guts in it with the spur bobbed and set to DAO.



In all reality, if I get the LNIB one, I probably won't do anything drastic to it. Just kind of rolling it around in my head.
Link Posted: 2/8/2012 5:23:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2012 5:28:14 PM EDT by Casper507]
www.moonclips.com
Look on gunbroker for extra cylinder.
I found an extra crane and cylinder in stainless for my 586 that I intend to send in some day to get done. It only cost me about 60 bucks for the crane and cylinder.
Once done you can use clips or just shells.
Dearly wish I would have purchased the titanium cylinder and shroud 2.5 inch 625 I saw on Gunbroker in 45 LC. There were only 210 made. Could have had it set up to use LC and ACP. Doesn't work with .357/9mm though.
Link Posted: 2/8/2012 5:36:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:


2. it's a sexy, 4" barrel. Have not pulled the pachmeyer rubber grips off to see if it's a round butt. (if it is I'll probably snag it regardless of anything else.)




S&W didn't make round butt K frame Model 13s with 4" barrels, only 3".
Unless the barrel was changed out to a 4", that Model 13 is a square butt.

Link Posted: 2/8/2012 5:42:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:


2. it's a sexy, 4" barrel. Have not pulled the pachmeyer rubber grips off to see if it's a round butt. (if it is I'll probably snag it regardless of anything else.)




S&W didn't make round butt K frame Model 13s with 4" barrels, only 3".
Unless the barrel was changed out to a 4", that Model 13 is a square butt.

Right on. I didn't know if they made the 4" guns with round butts, and I'm sure until I have cash sitting on the table, they won't let me take the grips off to check out underneath (big pachmeyer wrap arounds). Knowing that at least lets me know not to be hopeful (round butts are sexy...)

Link Posted: 2/8/2012 6:22:24 PM EDT
I put a S&W combat rebound spring and bobbed the hammer on mine. It already had one of the smoothest double action pulls of any I've

ever felt, right out of the box. It is a real joy to shoot, and is very accurate. I once shot a 12 round group off hand at fifteen yards the size

of a quarter. It was with hard cast 200 grain round nose, but I have no idea what powder or charge. Too long ago.
Link Posted: 2/8/2012 8:25:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
I'd love to run across one that was cosmetically trashed, so I could do all sorts of work to it, I.E. lighter trigger return spring, cut for moon clips, maybe stuff a different hammer and guts in it with the spur bobbed and set to DAO.


That's exactly how my 3" M13 project started. I bought an extremely beat up Century Arms re-import ex-French police revolver. Since surrendering is France's national sport, it was obviously dropped a lot more than fired. Mechanically it was perfect, but the finish was trashed and the front sight was bent, both ways!

Anyway, I sent if off to Karl Sokol at Chestnut Mountain Sports for him to build another Sokol Custom for me. I had Karl bob the hammer, chamfer the chambers, smooth out the action without lightening anything up, round the trigger and install a trigger overtravel stop, dehorn the entire revolver, mill off the damaged front sight, dovetail the barrel and install a Millet blank, beadblast and parkerize.

It doesn't look as good as it did when I first got it back, but if you carry something, it's going to wear. Sorry I can't help you with the moon clip conversion. I've never had the urge to do it. I'm more than happy with either Speed Strips, Safariland Comp II's or even loose rounds in the pocket. After using the M13 and my Sokol Custom 2-1/2" P&R M66 at Michael de Bethencourt's Snub Class, he teaches you to make all of them work and work well. I've trained with a lot of good instructors, but he's by far the best.



Link Posted: 2/8/2012 9:10:44 PM EDT
Damn! Pretty guns!


I have a slight addiction to moon clips having grown up shooting a M1917, and the only speed loaders I've ever used are the old school HKS ones. If I do get the pistol I suppose I'll invest in a few good, modern, speed loaders and see if I like them before committing to dicking with a nice gun.
Link Posted: 2/9/2012 12:50:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2012 5:07:34 AM EDT
a freind of mine had one of his model 65's cut for clips- does not alter the appearance of the gun at all, still allows use of regular loose ammo or speedloaders. the .38/357 moon clips for the 6 shot are much stronger than tohse for the 8 shooters, but not as stout as the 45acp ones. they can bend easily if not cared for. there is also an issue with some ammo brands not fitting in the clips well. I myself do not see enough advantage in speed of reloading to invest in the conversion on my guns. I also do not know if it is possible to convert the recessed guns like my friends later non recessed cylinder model.
Link Posted: 2/9/2012 6:56:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Damn! Pretty guns!


I have a slight addiction to moon clips having grown up shooting a M1917, and the only speed loaders I've ever used are the old school HKS ones. If I do get the pistol I suppose I'll invest in a few good, modern, speed loaders and see if I like them before committing to dicking with a nice gun.


Here, this might help. This is the instructor I mentioned above speaking about speedloaders:

Michael de Bethencourt on Speedloaders

When you take his class, you are issued three speedloaders and a speed strip. One HKS, one Safariland Comp 1 or 2, depending on what your revolver is (Comp II is preferred but they do not make it for the J-Frame), and an SL Variant. Each course of fire required you to load up all three, plus loose rounds in your pocket, so you get used to using whatever equipment you grab. Also, you never loaded up without at least one dummy round mixed in. It was a good tool to watch for people anticipating recoil.

Every speedloader you are issued is spray painted, too, green and red. Michael uses that as a tool to show you where you hold and where you don't. You can see some of the spray paint in the video.

After using all three of them extensively over the two day class, I definately have my favorite. I've settled on the Comp II as my preferred speedloader. I thought I'd like the SL Variant the best while using them with the dummy rounds in the classroom, but on the range and under some stress, I found the Safariland to work better for me.



Link Posted: 2/9/2012 6:05:54 PM EDT
Big +1 for Karl Sokol

He has done several SW revolvers and three 1911s for me.

Top shelf work
Link Posted: 2/11/2012 2:11:55 PM EDT
So I picked it up. Not going to lie, even though I didn't get a "screaming deal" on it (paid about what it's worth) I don't have a single ounce of buyers remorse.



I have to slap a DIY muffler on my car, and I'll try to get some pics up.


The gun came with the box, original tag, and S&W ammunition ballistics book.
Link Posted: 2/11/2012 4:54:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
So I picked it up. Not going to lie, even though I didn't get a "screaming deal" on it (paid about what it's worth) I don't have a single ounce of buyers remorse.



I have to slap a DIY muffler on my car, and I'll try to get some pics up.


The gun came with the box, original tag, and S&W ammunition ballistics book.


You know the rules. No pics or it didn't happen.

Link Posted: 2/11/2012 5:11:48 PM EDT



It's really pretty. The hazing in the picture is from my grubby hands.


The thing I like about M-13's, is there's no frills. It's a gun made straight for gun fighting. Milled rear sight, ramp front sight, it's not huge like the N framed revolvers. Light and fast.


Pinned and recessed, no huge lawyer roll marks. Just a pretty gun!



Link Posted: 2/11/2012 5:39:02 PM EDT
It's amazing to me what shooters can do with the average S&W in 357.
I've got several of them and I surprise myself every time I shoot them with the accuracy they are capable of.
A 13 lb trigger rebound spring with a smooth .312" trigger installed on that gun and you will be floored at the difference in double action accuracy.
Link Posted: 2/11/2012 5:44:54 PM EDT
There's nothing better than a pre-lock S&W K-frame, especially the fixed sight models. Out of every K-frame I own, and that's 20+ of them, only five are adjustable sight models. 4" and 6" 617's, a 1905 Target Model, 4" P&R M19 and the M66 posted above. I perfectly regulated fixed sight revolver is the defination of S&W happiness!
Link Posted: 2/11/2012 6:03:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
There's nothing better than a pre-lock S&W K-frame, especially the fixed sight models. Out of every K-frame I own, and that's 20+ of them, only five are adjustable sight models. 4" and 6" 617's, a 1905 Target Model, 4" P&R M19 and the M66 posted above. I perfectly regulated fixed sight revolver is the defination of S&W happiness!


Last October I shot two coyotes with a Model 65 3" S&W. They were running at about 50 yards after I popped their companion with a 50 cal muzzle loader.
It took me three shots. The first one hit, the second one missed, the third one hit.
I don't even remember seeing the front sight shooting the DA shots that killed the coyotes.
You shoot enough rounds through a well balanced, well gripped S&W, and it becomes so naturally accurate in your hand as to be scary.
I'm not sure of those grips on his gun being Pachs, but they are finger grooved and rubber which seems to be a great combination in the K frames for many people.
Uncle Mike's made some for K frames that I am very comfortable shooting on a round butt K frame. I have Pachmayr Grippers or the Uncle Mikes finger groove grips on most of my K frames. Here are my stainless ones with the Goodyears on them:



Link Posted: 2/12/2012 1:58:12 AM EDT



Link Posted: 2/12/2012 5:03:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By danc46:
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
There's nothing better than a pre-lock S&W K-frame, especially the fixed sight models. Out of every K-frame I own, and that's 20+ of them, only five are adjustable sight models. 4" and 6" 617's, a 1905 Target Model, 4" P&R M19 and the M66 posted above. I perfectly regulated fixed sight revolver is the defination of S&W happiness!


Last October I shot two coyotes with a Model 65 3" S&W. They were running at about 50 yards after I popped their companion with a 50 cal muzzle loader.
It took me three shots. The first one hit, the second one missed, the third one hit.
I don't even remember seeing the front sight shooting the DA shots that killed the coyotes.
You shoot enough rounds through a well balanced, well gripped S&W, and it becomes so naturally accurate in your hand as to be scary.


When Karl built me that first 3" M65 when I turned 21, I shot that handgun, and pretty much only that handgun for years. I couldn't miss with it, even offhand on a 12"x14" steel plate at 100 yards.

Right now my favorite is an older 4" heavy barrel M10. It's my new perfect S&W.

Link Posted: 2/12/2012 5:26:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:

When Karl built me that first 3" M65 when I turned 21, I shot that handgun, and pretty much only that handgun for years. I couldn't miss with it, even offhand on a 12"x14" steel plate at 100 yards.

Right now my favorite is an older 4" heavy barrel M10. It's my new perfect S&W.



Those 3" revolvers quickly became my favorites. (That's why I have three of them.)
The accuracy is amazing out of those guns. Several members here and I went to one of my gun clubs and I was hitting a 10" plate at 100 yds shooting DA with every shot.
Three of the four shot that handgun and loads that day and were doing just as well as I was.
The four inch version is a great gun too if fitted like the OP's is. With those grips. a softer trigger rebound spring than factory, and a smooth wide trigger, he'll learn new meanings to the word handgun accuracy,

Link Posted: 2/12/2012 8:37:33 AM EDT
We'll see if it can keep up with my 5" 1911 .38 super accuracy wise. That's a 100 yard gun as well.
Link Posted: 2/12/2012 10:27:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
We'll see if it can keep up with my 5" 1911 .38 super accuracy wise. That's a 100 yard gun as well.


I inherited a similar model 13 from my brother. About 30 years ago, I tried it at normal handgun ranges. The last 6 shots, I fired at a piece of notebook paper, 100 yards away.

Now, I obviously had younger eyes back then. I managed to keep all 6 on that notebook paper, just barely. It was about an 8" group. Which I think is good for a 4" barrel service revolver firing magnum ammunition.

I probably can't duplicate that feat, but the gun still can.

Link Posted: 2/12/2012 10:51:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 10:51:21 AM EDT by KJB]
I wish they were still loading factory 158 grains to 1500fps!
Link Posted: 2/12/2012 10:58:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 11:09:20 AM EDT by danc46]
Originally Posted By grendelbane:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
We'll see if it can keep up with my 5" 1911 .38 super accuracy wise. That's a 100 yard gun as well.


I inherited a similar model 13 from my brother. About 30 years ago, I tried it at normal handgun ranges. The last 6 shots, I fired at a piece of notebook paper, 100 yards away.

Now, I obviously had younger eyes back then. I managed to keep all 6 on that notebook paper, just barely. It was about an 8" group. Which I think is good for a 4" barrel service revolver firing magnum ammunition.

I probably can't duplicate that feat, but the gun still can.



My eyes at age 59 aren't near as sharp as they were at 25 and I still do pretty darn good with a S&W revolver.
I imagine you can do pretty close now to what you did back then.
The load will have a lot to do with it. You might have to play with different loads to do it, but I'd bet donuts against hair pins you'd do good when you found the right one for you.
If you've shot a S&W revolver enough, they seem to become part of you when you shoot them.
I honestly don't know if I saw the front sight on my 65 on those two coyotes I killed back in October with the 65.
It was overcast and the sun had gone down when I shot the three of them. (one was a muzzle loader).
With the bifocals I wear, the front sight isn't all that sharp anyway when I do shoot it.
There really is almost magic with the K frame S&Ws in my opinion.
But I grew up shooting them from the time I was a 2nd grader and have liked them for over 50 years now.

Originally Posted By KJB:
I wish they were still loading factory 158 grains to 1500fps!


I really don't think you gain that much by faster loads sometimes. I've shot a lot of 158 gr lead SWCs at 1000 fps for just grins and giggles over the years and they do pretty good on coons and coyotes, even at longer distances.
It wasn't only until last year I went to the heavier 180 gr hard cast lead bullet and the loads chrono at a little over 1000 fps out of a 4" revolver.
That's a very good load for accuracy and breaking bones on deer if you are apt to want to shoot one.
For self defense, there are lots of good loads in the current premium 158 gr JHPs.

Link Posted: 2/12/2012 1:28:20 PM EDT
Put a quick 100 rounds through it today to get used to the sights/ DA pull. They only had over priced Remington 130 grain.



My avoidance of shooting anything DA certainly hindered me from being very accurate, with a pronounced pull to the right and low. Goofed around a bunch with hand and finger placement and slowed down and was hitting black pretty easy. I'm DEFFINILTLY spoiled by 1911 triggers.

I pulled the side plate off and cleaned the guts out, but it still feels a little gritty, I over oiled it to hopefully work everything out and will pull it in a few weeks to clean it well and oil properly. 1000 dry fires from now it'll probably be pretty smooth! (my Fathers M10 is like silk just from being old). The heavy ass return spring definitely bugs be, but I'll see if I get used to it. If nothing else I'll use it for strength training, get used to it, THEN toss a lighter one in.


The single action, in true S&W fashion, is absurdly light, and SUPER clean breaking.


I have a sneaking suspension that the gun REALLY wants to be fed PPC loads.
Link Posted: 2/12/2012 1:41:15 PM EDT
FWIW, if you can find a smooth combat trigger (.312" wide) for it, it would be worth installing it when you do the trigger rebound spring. The factory spring has 17 coils. You can cut it down to 15 coils if you don't want to install a 13 lb spring. Don't go below the 13 lb. on the trigger rebound spring if you want proper trigger return. A lighter trigger rebound spring will also lighten up the SA trigger pull. When you pull the rebound slide out, you might smooth the sides of it up some on a good flat hard arkansas. Also a good synthetic grease on the spring inside the trigger rebound will do much to make that DA super smooth.
Link Posted: 2/12/2012 1:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 2:01:10 PM EDT by Madcap72]
Thanks for the tips. I think next payday I'll start sourcing parts.

-ETA I think I'll just use speed loaders and forget cutting it for moon clips unless I run across a super cheap spare cylinder. It's WAY too pretty.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 8:26:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Thanks for the tips. I think next payday I'll start sourcing parts.




-ETA I think I'll just use speed loaders and forget cutting it for moon clips unless I run across a super cheap spare cylinder. It's WAY too pretty.


Cutting a pinned and recessed S&W should be a crime anyway.

Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:29:08 PM EDT
Eh, my plan is to shoot it to death anyways. While I purchase firearms based primarily on what I think is "cool", I have absolutely no regard for others enjoyment of them past my ownership!
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:33:18 PM EDT
Shot the local IDPA practice tonight.


Used the only holster I have for it (the pictured basket weave duty holster), HKS speed loaders, and my jacket pocket.

First run was OK. Second run, using .357 was terrible. 3rd run beginners luck wore off and I didn't keep the barrel tilted down on the reload spilling 2 rounds.



On the plus side, I was more accurate that normal.



Also, witnessed a NASTY 1911 barrel split from a low charge squib.
Link Posted: 2/14/2012 10:37:21 PM EDT
You get the DA smoothed up and shoot it enough, it will be your favorite handgun.
One S&W revolver is usually not enough.
Link Posted: 2/15/2012 6:06:58 AM EDT
When I took the snub class with Michael de Bethencourt, he taught a reload keeping the revolver in your dominant hand. It felt awkward, since I've been shifting hands to reload for 30 years, but since I've been practicing it daily, I find it faster now. It's worth giving it a shot. Here's a video where he describes the reload:

Dominant hand revolver reload
Link Posted: 2/15/2012 1:36:55 PM EDT
Nice find!

I have only one Smith, a 19-3. I reload, but it's still costly to shoot as much as I would like. I load wax bullets to shoot in my garage to practice double action shooting (obviously close range). I have done it kinda half arse using wife units candles but it works. I also practice reloads quite a bit using HKS speed loaders. Have made up 'mock inert rounds' for loading realism, and simple spent cases for ejecting.

I plan on trying IDPA with it, or even ICORE (sp?) just havn't gotten to it yet
Link Posted: 2/15/2012 4:24:50 PM EDT
When my dad was in his 20's his friends and he would load wax bullets, and race around town having shoot outs with each other.


Link Posted: 2/15/2012 8:36:18 PM EDT
Speer makes reusable plastic training bullets. They are simply loaded in a powder-less but primed case that will drive the projectile to 300 to 400 fps.
I've used them in 38 Specials training others to use a DA revolver. They can be reused several times.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/components/plastic_training_bullets.aspx
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 6:25:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By danc46:
Speer makes reusable plastic training bullets. They are simply loaded in a powder-less but primed case that will drive the projectile to 300 to 400 fps.
I've used them in 38 Specials training others to use a DA revolver. They can be reused several times.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/components/plastic_training_bullets.aspx


If you use hanging, thick carpet as a backstop and put a box underneath, it collects the undamaged plactic bullets.

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:16:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
When my dad was in his 20's his friends and he would load wax bullets, and race around town having shoot outs with each other.




If I knew could get away with it, I would do it and I'm in my 40's
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:34:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By danc46:
Speer makes reusable plastic training bullets. They are simply loaded in a powder-less but primed case that will drive the projectile to 300 to 400 fps.
I've used them in 38 Specials training others to use a DA revolver. They can be reused several times.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/components/plastic_training_bullets.aspx


If you use hanging, thick carpet as a backstop and put a box underneath, it collects the undamaged plactic bullets.



They don't do too well up against sheet rock.
But they are an invaluable training tool for those who are afraid to shoot a handgun for the first time.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:10:51 PM EDT
I got a Smith 442 Pro last summer, it is cut for moonclips which allow you to use loose rounds, Speed Loaders, Moonclips and Speed Strips. TK custom has a conversion for Smiths and Rugers to moonclips.

TK pricing
TK machining


CD
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