Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/3/2005 3:51:38 PM EDT
Got some $$$ burning a hole in the ol pocket.

Don't "need" either, but I want both.

Pure toy.

Would never sell, but which has better resale????

What to do?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 4:36:47 PM EDT
By SOCOM, do you mean an HK Mk. 23 SOCOM?

If so, get one. You will most definately not regret the purchase.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 4:56:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
By SOCOM, do you mean an HK Mk. 23 SOCOM?

If so, get one. You will most definately not regret the purchase.



thats the one.

I have wanted both for a long time.

Can only afford one.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 4:59:37 PM EDT
Do you own a 1911 as of now?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:01:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
Do you own a 1911 as of now?



Good question.

Anyways, I own a nice 1911 (not quite a wilson though), but the Mk 23 SOCOM is by far the best pistol I have ever owned or shot. Its not just a beefed up USP. Thats what I would vote for, get one if you can.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:13:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
Do you own a 1911 as of now?



Yes, two.

Colt Officer's Model that my dad gave me when I made O-4.

SA WWII repro.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:05:35 PM EDT
Tough choice. Seeing as you already have a couple 1911's, I'd go with the SOCOM.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:12:13 PM EDT
As much as I love my H&Ks, I'd choose a Wilson over the SOCOM for practicality (sp?) purposes if for nothing else. You can always use the Wilson as a CCW, probably not for the SOCOM.

My .o2

BTW, don't forget to look at the Les Baer's!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:17:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
As much as I love my H&Ks, I'd choose a Wilson over the SOCOM for practicality (sp?) purposes if for nothing else. You can always use the Wilson as a CCW, probably not for the SOCOM.

My .o2

BTW, don't forget to look at the Les Baer's!



I use my SOCOM for CCW in the winter
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:38:47 PM EDT
MK23 without a doubt.

Then later get a kimber custom II

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:42:59 PM EDT
If it were me, I'd call Yost-Bonitz and spec out something to suit my personal tastes. If you are going to spend the cash on a toy, get something a little personalized.

Or pick up a caspian damascus slide in the caliber of your choice, with a caspian frame and custom serial number (you name, birthday, wedding anniversary, whatever, and send it to the builder of your choice). You'd have one hell of a beautiful piece that the grand children will appreciate.

For the price of either gun, I'd have something put together just for me. It might even cost a little more, but it would be worth it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:53:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolffie:
If it were me, I'd call Yost-Bonitz and spec out something to suit my personal tastes. If you are going to spend the cash on a toy, get something a little personalized.

Or pick up a caspian damascus slide in the caliber of your choice, with a caspian frame and custom serial number (you name, birthday, wedding anniversary, whatever, and send it to the builder of your choice). You'd have one hell of a beautiful piece that the grand children will appreciate.

For the price of either gun, I'd have something put together just for me. It might even cost a little more, but it would be worth it.



Personalize a MK23. You can now get black, tan, grey or OD
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:57:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By wolffie:
If it were me, I'd call Yost-Bonitz and spec out something to suit my personal tastes. If you are going to spend the cash on a toy, get something a little personalized.

Or pick up a caspian damascus slide in the caliber of your choice, with a caspian frame and custom serial number (you name, birthday, wedding anniversary, whatever, and send it to the builder of your choice). You'd have one hell of a beautiful piece that the grand children will appreciate.

For the price of either gun, I'd have something put together just for me. It might even cost a little more, but it would be worth it.



Personalize a MK23. You can now get black, tan, grey or OD



Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:02:31 PM EDT
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:10:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:39:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.

+100!!

Oh and get the Wilson! Unless the MK23 comes with a stock, cause its as big as a carbine.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:18:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.

+100!!

Unless the MK23 comes with a stock, cause its as big as a carbine.



Keep telling yourself that. Its big, but not that big. In this case though, bigger does equal better
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:24:39 PM EDT by Marksman14]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.



I guess I've just never seen a wilson do anything my Kimber couldn't do aside from look a little nicer, have a trigger thats a bit more crisp, and have an action thats a bit smoother. By replacing the MIM parts with wilson bulletproof parts and doing a trigger job, I simply can't see where the Wilson would do anything better than the Kimber aside from look a little nicer...and possibly a little smoother when racking the slide. And frankly, I could care less how smooth it is when I pull the slide back. I do that once per range session, and thats it. All that smoothness doesn't make a damn difference when you're pulling the trigger.

To me, that is not important. If it is to you, then spend the money on a wilson.

I guess I just don't see the point in spending that much money on a semi custom gun. Like I said, if you're going to spend that much money on a 1911, get a Les Baer instead. I PERSONALLY can see why someone would spend the money on a baer.

Not knocking wilson here guys, they're great guns. I just think there are better choices for the money...like Les Baer, or upgrading a Kimber or springfield loaded if you're one of those anti external guys.

Whats wrong with that advice?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:22:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.

+100!!

Unless the MK23 comes with a stock, cause its as big as a carbine.



Keep telling yourself that. Its big, but not that big. In this case though, bigger does equal better



But...its...sooooo heavy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:28:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:29:41 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.



I guess I've just never seen a wilson do anything my Kimber couldn't do aside from look a little nicer, have a trigger thats a bit more crisp, and have an action thats a bit smoother. By replacing the MIM parts with wilson bulletproof parts and doing a trigger job, I simply can't see where the Wilson would do anything better than the Kimber aside from look a little nicer...and possibly a little smoother when racking the slide.

To me, that is not important. If it is to you, then spend the money on a wilson.

I guess I just don't see the point in spending that much money on a semi custom gun. Like I said, if you're going to spend that much money on a 1911, get a Les Baer instead. I PERSONALLY can see why someone would spend the money on a baer.

Not knocking wilson here guys, they're great guns. I just think there are better choices for the money...like Les Baer, or upgrading a Kimber or springfield loaded if you're one of those anti external guys.

Whats wrong with that advice?



I do not really want to get into a Les Baer vs. Wilson thread becuase we know how that will turn out. Every single one is a fiasco. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:35:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:37:29 PM EDT by Marksman14]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.



I guess I've just never seen a wilson do anything my Kimber couldn't do aside from look a little nicer, have a trigger thats a bit more crisp, and have an action thats a bit smoother. By replacing the MIM parts with wilson bulletproof parts and doing a trigger job, I simply can't see where the Wilson would do anything better than the Kimber aside from look a little nicer...and possibly a little smoother when racking the slide.

To me, that is not important. If it is to you, then spend the money on a wilson.

I guess I just don't see the point in spending that much money on a semi custom gun. Like I said, if you're going to spend that much money on a 1911, get a Les Baer instead. I PERSONALLY can see why someone would spend the money on a baer.

Not knocking wilson here guys, they're great guns. I just think there are better choices for the money...like Les Baer, or upgrading a Kimber or springfield loaded if you're one of those anti external guys.

Whats wrong with that advice?



I do not really want to get into a Les Baer vs. Wilson thread becuase we know how that will turn out. Every single one is a fiasco. You have your opinion and I have mine.




Precisely why I'd never tell you to only give advice on one topic. We both have different opinions. Neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong. Honestly, I expected better from you. But hey, nobody's perfect. I guess I'll just stick to my HK's and ignore all the 1911's I own because hey, I guess I'm just not qualified...

Someone asked me for my advice. I gave it. My apologies.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:41:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)

I may just be me, but I find wilsons overpriced. If I am going to get a high end 1911, I'm going to look at a Les Baer.

But I'd still take a MK23 over any of them any day. And yes, I'm a 1911 guy.



You should stick to giving MK23 advise if thats the best you can offer.

A Kimber with a few parts changed out is not a Wilson.



I guess I've just never seen a wilson do anything my Kimber couldn't do aside from look a little nicer, have a trigger thats a bit more crisp, and have an action thats a bit smoother. By replacing the MIM parts with wilson bulletproof parts and doing a trigger job, I simply can't see where the Wilson would do anything better than the Kimber aside from look a little nicer...and possibly a little smoother when racking the slide.

To me, that is not important. If it is to you, then spend the money on a wilson.

I guess I just don't see the point in spending that much money on a semi custom gun. Like I said, if you're going to spend that much money on a 1911, get a Les Baer instead. I PERSONALLY can see why someone would spend the money on a baer.

Not knocking wilson here guys, they're great guns. I just think there are better choices for the money...like Les Baer, or upgrading a Kimber or springfield loaded if you're one of those anti external guys.

Whats wrong with that advice?



I do not really want to get into a Les Baer vs. Wilson thread becuase we know how that will turn out. Every single one is a fiasco. You have your opinion and I have mine.




Precisely why I'd never tell you to only give advice on one topic. We both have different opinions. Neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong. Honestly, I expected better from you. But hey, nobody's perfect. I guess I'll just stick to my HK's and ignore all the 1911's I own because hey, I guess I'm just not qualified...

Someone asked me for my advice. I gave it. My apologies.



What in the hell are you talking about? I never insulted you, yet you come off with a chip on your shoulder. This is more than a little odd.

How many Wilson's or Les Baer's have you owned?

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:48:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:51:47 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Never said you insulted me...

Just saying, I thought it was a bit uncalled for that you told me to stick with giving advice on HK's if thats the best I can do. Just a minor bitch slap to the face is all, and although my experience with 1911's probably isn't as vast as yours, I still feel my advice was sound, and shouldn't have been dismissed.

1 wilson, bought it used, sold it. Damn fine gun, just not worth the money TO ME. Close friend of mine owns 2 Baers, I've probably put more rounds through them than he has. Dollar for dollar, I feel the Baer is a better value.

All I own now is a Kimber TLE RL, and a handful of HK's. All of them work 100%, and yes, my kimber still has all the original MIM parts. Not a "defense" weapon, so I'll change them out if needed.

I've also owned 2 springfields, not like those matter...but..for the sake of it, a mil-spec operator, and a loaded.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:51:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Never said you insulted me...



Then relax.

You cannot make statements about "Wilson's not being worth money" and not expect a reply.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:52:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Never said you insulted me...



Then relax.

You cannot make statements about "Wilson's not being worth money" and not expect a reply.




Touche
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:19:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Never said you insulted me...



Then relax.

You cannot make statements about "Wilson's not being worth money" and not expect a reply.




Touche



Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:31:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 5:31:50 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:01:08 PM EDT

Thanks for the replies.

Still not sure although I am leaning more toward the Mk23.

The $$ burning the hole in my pocket is actually store credit after a barter deal so order a bunch of custom stuff is out. Pretty much sticking to what is in stock. Not that is bad.

decisions, decisions.....
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:02:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
You can always use the Wilson as a CCW, probably not for the SOCOM.



Is that a Mk23 in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?


Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:09:16 AM EDT
Bubba, there are many reasons to get a Mark23 vs. a 1911. Here are some of them from my perspective.

1. The Mark23 is unique. It was specifically designed to meet and exceed all of USSOCOM's requirements for the OHWS (Offenseive Handgun Weapon System). Whether people like the Mark23 or not (weight, size, whatever), HK delivered what SOCOM asked for. 1911's are all over the place from lots of manufacturers. There are 1911's from Vickers, Yam, Yost, Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Baer, John Doe's Gunsmithing. There is no Glock Mark23, no SIG Mark23, no XYZ Mark23. The Mark23 is itself, a different class of handgun.

2. The Mark23's requirements are such that it can without question, take a beating in all sorts of horrible conditions and still function. This is not to say you are going to give it a 100 hour salt spray test or drag it through the mud or whatever, but that since you will NOT do such things, your reliability will be even more assured. A 1911 with tight tolerances such as those produced by the aforementioned folks, is just by design, not as reliable (this is not to say a 1911 is NOT reliable, just not AS reliable as a Mark23).

3. The Mark23 features such as a threaded barrel will allow you to attach a suppressor without barrel refitting, or any action on your part to modify your gun. The Mark23 was designed with suppressor in mind so your sights will clear it.

4. Any part of the Mark23 is interchangeable with another Mark23, not so for a 1911.

5. The magazine system system of HK is unequaled. 12+1 rounds vs 7+1 from a magazine system that will be reliable in even the sandiest places.

6. Low recoil, and capable of 1" groups at 50 yards.

I'm not bashing 1911's, I'm just giving reasons why I think you should buy a Mark23.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:48:54 AM EDT
michealvain did a great job covering the reasons to buy a mk23. i have one as well and it would be one of my last guns that i would part with. i looked at wilsons, but chose a SA professional--i love it, but it would go before my socom. as a matter of fact the only pistol of mine that would outlast my socom is my full house heinie custom. of course i may revise this when some of my guns come back from the boys at YB I should also point out that i was almost 100% HK until i got converted to 1911s, and now its hard to look at anything else, except that socom and p7 and...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:14:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)




Up until recently Wilson used Kimber frames and slides. Both companies use(d?) MIM............

As to the original question - if you can get ahold of each and shoot them the answer will be clear....get what you desire.

Good luck
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:50:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)




Up until recently Wilson used Kimber frames and slides. Both companies use(d?) MIM............

As to the original question - if you can get ahold of each and shoot them the answer will be clear....get what you desire.

Good luck



Your just plain wrong.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:55:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 11:58:06 AM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:

Originally Posted By Marksman14:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Do yourself a favor and buy the Wilson.



Well if you really want to tell him to do himself a favor, you'd tell him to get a Kimber, replace the MIM parts, get a trigger job, and save himself about 500 dollars :-)




Up until recently Wilson used Kimber frames and slides. Both companies use(d?) MIM............

As to the original question - if you can get ahold of each and shoot them the answer will be clear....get what you desire.

Good luck



Your just plain wrong.




Seriously? Which part?

Kimber did produce frames and slide for Wilson until late 2004 -from what I understand they shifted to a new source - and considering the NightHawk exodus, I highly doubt they are made in house - I would need to call. Look at any Wilson - do you think it is mere coinscidence that the tooling is EXACTLY the same as a Kimber?

Kimber uses MIM - that is 100%.

Wilson used MIM, and I believe still uses MIM to a small degree - again I would need to call.

I called Wilson in late 2003 - the last time I was 1911 shopping and passed because of what they stated to me on the phone......


Wilson - it ain't the holy grail.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 1:01:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 1:23:17 PM EDT by AJohnston]
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 1:10:35 PM EDT
I have experience with the vernerable 1911 and with HKs. I would get neither the Wilson nor the SOCCOM if I were you. Why not get the Tactical in 45. Ultra reliable, O-ring barrel accuracy and 12+1 capacity. Put some night sights it and your good to go.

Bomber
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 3:36:21 AM EDT
AJohnston,

My comment was made using general firearms knowledge gleaned from various sources as well as observations from other people.

If you would like to dispute it, please do.

I'm gathering that you believe a tight tolerance 1911 can take as much as abuse as a Mark23. Sand, salt water, mud, steady diet of +p+ ammo, etc.

If you're basically calling me stupid, have the courtesy to at least point out specifics.

As I said before, I'm not bashing the 1911, I'm just giving him points of why *I* would pick the Mark23 over it.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 4:11:24 AM EDT
Not sure how anyone could say the 1911 is more durable than a Mark 23. They were designed 60 years apart under totally different design requirements. The 1911 was designed when the Wright brothers just got off the ground and the Mark 23 was designed after we made it the moon.

Do not get me wrong.....I have several 1911's and love them dearly. They are extremely reliable. The Mark 23 was designed to operate in a particularly hostile environment that was't in the cards when the 1911 was designed.

Note also that the USP/Mark 23's have many Browning features designed into them.

Bomber
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:22:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 5:45:31 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
My God I hate the Internet.

Could this thread be any more screwed up?
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:34:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
My God I hate the Internet.

Could this thread be any more screwed up?



I am sure it could, but I do appreciate the comments on both sides of the aisle.

Sometimes, it is the pointless discussions that are the most fun.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:26:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:09:13 AM EDT
AJohnston, you're a longer time member of AR15 than I, and you have a great deal more posts here than I, so I'm going to give you the benefit of being a bit more polite than you are being toward me.

First, I am not "condemning" an entire breed of pistol. If you will read again what I said, to summarize, the Mark23 is more reliable than a 1911. This is NOT to say the 1911 is NOT reliable or that the 1911 is not a worthy gun. What I am saying is that the Mark23 is just better in reliability. Why? Because it's probably one of the most torture tested pistols ever.

Have I dragged a Mark23 through mud personally? No.
Have I thrown my Mark23 in the ocean for hours on end? No.

But, I am confident that when people who have actually used it in those situations say that it can do all that, I'm inclined to believe them. I suppose that when people talk about needing a breaking in period for their 1911's, that's just urban legend?

I've never driven a Ferrari, but I'm pretty sure I'm on good footing when I say it's faster than a Ford mustang, even though I've never driven either.

For you to say that I'm BS'ing or that I have no idea what I'm talking about is narrow minded and border-line ignorant.

I've asked you to point me to various sources that contradict my points.

If you'd like to me to point YOU in the direction of sources and reports that support my opinion, I'll be happy to do so.

Again, in case you missed it previously...I am NOT saying the 1911 is unreliable or a bad gun, I am merely saying that the Mark23 is more reliable.

I'm assuming you don't have an issue with my other points regarding why the gentleman should buy a Mark23.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 12:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 12:40:23 PM EDT by AJohnston]
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 12:44:56 PM EDT

I’m simply pointing out fallacies with your post and I do apologize if you confuse that with being impolite. Sincerely, no offence meant.


No offense but how could he not take this as impolite:


than you’re either stupid or you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.




If that is not condemning an entire breed of pistol I don’t know what is


You're awefully defensive and come on quite strong. He may have worded his inital phrase differently but I think he did a good job of clarifying his position so why won't you let your initial mis-interpretation of what he is saying go?


I am not "condemning" an entire breed of pistol. If you will read again what I said, to summarize, the Mark23 is more reliable than a 1911. This is NOT to say the 1911 is NOT reliable or that the 1911 is not a worthy gun.


That's his position.....no need to get aggressive.


I actually have first hand experience that contradicts your conjecture and assumptions I can rightly take issue with your post.


Guess what, I have first hand experience that supports it. I guess our collective experience cancells each other out . None of us here could come up with enough personal experience to be statistically valid so condemming some one for their input on this and in the same breath claim that you are right is absurd.

Let your defenses down a little.....what he was saying is the Mark 23 SOCCOM was designed to exceed some specific performance requirements in a number of very harsh environments. That has nothing to do with the reliability of the 1911. What is says is that the DOD wanted a sidearm designed from the ground up to support special operations. If the 1911 met those performance requirements, why wasn't it chosen?

I'm a 1911 guy from way back. I love them especially my beloved Delta Elite that has all Wilson internals (sans the Ed Brown hammer). I also have and have had a number of 45s. I just think were trying to compare apples and oranges.

Bomber
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:14:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 1:21:16 PM EDT by AJohnston]
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:22:17 PM EDT
I'm not touchy at all.....I just found your responses comical.

Bomber
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:29:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 2:23:44 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:50:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 2:14:57 PM EDT by thebomber]
Personally, I'd never get the Mark 23. I think the proper choice is between the USP Tactical and the 1911. Both are awesome weapons. My personal choice is the Tactical but it really comes down to a personal choice.

Here is some other additional reading link:

In August 1991, Heckler & Koch, Inc. and Colt's Manufacturing Company were awarded contracts with the US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) for the development of an Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS).
USSOCOM directs the activities of some of America's most elite military units, including the Navy SEALs, Air Force Special Operations Wing, and the Army Green Berets, Rangers, and Special Operations Aviation.

The "OHWS" consists of three components: a .45 caliber pistol, a laser aiming module (LAM), and a sound and flash suppressor. In January 1994, the HK system was selected and subsequent Phase II and Phase III contracts were awarded.

The HK Mk 23 Mod 0 and HK Mark 23 .45 ACP pistols provides shooters with match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made handguns and exceed the most stringent operational requirements ever demanded of a combat handgun. The Mk 23/Mark 23 provides this accuracy without the need for hand-fitted parts common in custom-match pistols costing thousands of dollars more. Repair of the Mk23/Mark 23 is reduced to a simple parts exchange.

The HK Mark 23 is a commercial model of the U.S. Government issue Mk 23, MOD 0 Offensive Handgun and is available in limited numbers. Designated the "Mark 23", it is almost identical to the Mk23, MOD 0 pistol used by the Special Operations Command, right down to its threaded barrel. The principal differences are the slide inscriptions (Mark 23 as opposed to MK 23) and a barrel manufactured to SAAMI headspace specifications. Commercial Mark 23 pistols come supplied with 10-round magazines. Military and law enforcement models have 12-round magazines like the Special Operations model.

One of the most thoroughly tested handguns in history, the Mk23/Mark 23 met the most stringent operational and accuracy requirements ever demanded of a combat handgun. Mk 23 pistols achieved match grade accuracy with an average of 1.4 inches extreme spread in 5-round shot groups at 25 meters with service ammunition. Endurance testing demonstrated a service life of over 30,000 rounds of +P ammunition, with an additional 30,000 rounds certified on the slide and frame.

To meet the reliability requirement, the pistol had to demonstrate a minimum of 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages (MRBS) with both M1911 ball and +P ammunition. All pistols exceeded the 2000 MRBS with an average of 6000 MRBS.

In more than 450 accuracy test firings from a precision firing fixture, Mk 23 pistols far exceeded the government requirement, averagin 1.44 inches, with 65 groups of less than one inch. There were four groups of .5 inches, with 5 rounds going through the same hole! This included firing with and without the sound/flash suppressor attached.

Three pistols were tested for accuracy after firing over 30,000 rounds, the specified service life of the pistol, and still met the new pistol accuracy requirement. An innovative design feature, a high temperature rubber O-ring on the barrel that seals the barrel in the slide until unlocking, led to this remarkable achievement. The O-ring lasts beyond 20,000 rounds and can be replaced by the operator without tools in seconds.

To meet operational environmental requirements, the pistol was function tested at +140 and -25 F, exposed to 2 hours of submersion in sea water at 66 feet, placed in surf, salt-fog, sand-dust, mud, icing, unlubricated and fouled environments.
The barrel is threaded to accept accessories such as a flash and sound suppressor and the unique HK polygonal bore profile increases muzzle velocity and service life, reduces bore fouling and eases cleaning.

The Mk23 OWHS specifically includes a suppressor designed by Knight's Armament Company. Suppressed, the Mk23 produces only 132db of noise when fired dry, and a mere 122db when wet, about as loud as a .22 caliber pistol. Additionally, the can acts as an excellent flash suppressor which is essential for quiet sentry removal. The can is about seven and a half inches long, an inch and a half in diameter, and weighs almost a pound. Civilians may own the can but must comply with NFA regulations. Contact your local ATF office for more information, and then contact Knight's Armament Company directly.

Molded into the frame are special accessory grooves for attaching a light or laser aimer. The frame mounted Mk23 decocking lever is separate from the ambidextrous safety lever. It allows the hammer to be lowered quietly and safely from the single action position. When the hammer is down, the ambidextrous frame mounted safety lever is locked in the fire position so that the pistol is always ready for double action operation. When the hammer is "cocked and locked" in single action mode with the safety lever on "safe", the decocker is blocked so that the pistol is always ready for single action operation.

Even with the safety lever engaged, the slide can still be manipulated to load or clear the pistol. The extended slide release lever and the ambidextrous magazine release are easily actuated without adjustment of the firing grip using the firing hand thumb or index finger.

Other notable features include a mechanical recoil reduction system that that reduces recoil forces to the shooter and components of the pistol by as much as 30%, a reinforced polymer frame, a one-piece machined steel slide, and a law encorcement/military capacity of thirteen rounds (12 in the magazine, 1 in the chamber.) The weapon is aimed using either iron sights or an optional laiser aiming component (currently under development.) The iron sights provide a 3-dot sight picture with white or optional self-luminous tritium dots.

The Heckler & Koch Special Operations Handgun is designed to fire a minimum of 30,000 rounds of +P ammunition prior to depot level maintenance. After depot level maintenance, the pistol must have at least 30,000 rounds of additional service life on the slide and frame.

The Mk 23 became the first caliber .45 ACP pistol to enter U.S. military service since the venerable Government Model 1911A1. On May 1, 1996, the first Mk 23 pistols were delivered to the U.S. Special Operations Command for operational deployment. Since December 1996, the civilian version (dubbed Mark 23) has been shipping to HK authorized dealers. Retail price is $1995.00 for civilians and rumored to be around $1600 for law enforcement.As these will be a limited production run, the Mark 23 will surely become a valuable collector's item.


Once again, both are excellent pistols but I would recommned the initial poster consider the Tactical as well as the Wilson.

Bomber

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:59:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 3:00:55 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Ok, here ya go. Get a USP Tactical, and a Kimber Warrior As the owner of both a MK23 and a USP Tactical...I must admit, I'd never EVER get rid of my 23 for the TAC, but, the Tactical does do 95% of what the MK23 can do.

Problem solved
Top Top