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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/27/2005 8:09:35 AM EDT
Full circle once again --

My first serious pistol was a Glock 23. The downside to the Glock is the trigger -- it's just not as precise as more conventional designs. I became convinced that precision was important. I got a Sig 229... then later an HK USP, then another USP... Always selling to buy something else. I got a "taste" of just about every maker -- a couple Berettas... a few P7's... never got to CZ though. Every once in awhile I would get another Glock, but I always found some reason to sell it for something "better." Then I got the 1911 bug. Les Baer TRS, Springfield TRP, and Kimbers -- Stainless, Custom, CDP, Tactical and RL.

Eventually my "serious" gun collection boiled down to 9mm Glocks and 1911's. The main appeal for me to the 1911 is still the ease of accuracy provided by the sliding trigger and single-action. I am not a caliber bigot, but for a gun I don't have to conceal or transport the .45ACP has some appeal.

But I have been suffering from paralysis of analysis -- trying to keep a consistent manual of arms across what I carry, what is in my nighstand, and what I have set for SHTF. Capacity vs Accuracy, Accuracy vs Weight, etc etc. Both platforms have some major tradeoffs.

I finally came to the realization that for the type of training I am currently pursuing, the accuracy of the 1911 is of little benefit and requires too many concessions in other areas that are increasingly important to me.

I will keep a couple 1911s to show the kids when they're older but they will be safe queens. But it's going to be Glock 19 for CCW, Glock 21 in the nighstand, Glock 17 for SHTF.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:54:33 AM EDT
I am a little the same way except I got to the CZs. I have chosed Glock, CZ and Good Quality 1911s are my prefered choice. My CZ97B is every bit as accurate as my 1911s and has a higher capacity but how can you not like a good 1911 and the parts availability is very strong point.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:00:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:12:29 PM EDT
Manual of arms is overrated, in my opinion.

I own about one of everything, and my carry guns can range from a 1911 to a small revolver. But I never have trouble operating them at speed because I have practiced extensively with all of them, and don't have to worry about making them work.

I handle my Walther P99 as efortlessly as my Beretta 92 or my Glock 26.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:42:18 PM EDT
<-----9mm glocks for everything
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:25:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
<-----9mm glocks for everything



<-----40S&W glocks for everything
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:26:45 PM EDT
I know. I am debating between a Glock 17 and a Glock 20 or 21.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 8:29:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Manual of arms is overrated, in my opinion.

I own about one of everything, and my carry guns can range from a 1911 to a small revolver. But I never have trouble operating them at speed because I have practiced extensively with all of them, and don't have to worry about making them work.

I handle my Walther P99 as efortlessly as my Beretta 92 or my Glock 26.




I agree %100. I think some here think that if you can't win an IDPA match or something like that, then you can't properly (sp) defend yourself. I think good training and match shooting are great, but all of my shooting is done on my land with my brother. When I carry I usually carry my G26, but there are times when I carry my 92FS or SW1911. I'm comfortable with the manual of arms on all of these pistols and I know that I can defend my family and home with each, especailly against your average thug/gang banger.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 9:21:04 AM EDT
I'm the same way Glocks and 1911's for me.

Started with a Glock 21, traded it for a S&W 629 6". Fired a couple 300rds of 44mag and traded the 629 for a USP 45. Couldn't get the USP onto paper, the grip felt bigger than the G21, the mag release was pita, and the trigger was not that great. Trade the USP back for my original G21.

Bought a 220 .45, not a bad gun, sold it because it ejected every shell casing into my forehead. Also wasn't overly impressed with the trigger.

Right now have a Glock 17 & 21, a Colt Series 70 Gov, Kimber Classic Stainless, and a Rock Island 1911. These will not be traded or sold off.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 11:31:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twistedcomrade:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Manual of arms is overrated, in my opinion.

I own about one of everything, and my carry guns can range from a 1911 to a small revolver. But I never have trouble operating them at speed because I have practiced extensively with all of them, and don't have to worry about making them work.

I handle my Walther P99 as efortlessly as my Beretta 92 or my Glock 26.




I agree %100. I think some here think that if you can't win an IDPA match or something like that, then you can't properly (sp) defend yourself. I think good training and match shooting are great, but all of my shooting is done on my land with my brother. When I carry I usually carry my G26, but there are times when I carry my 92FS or SW1911. I'm comfortable with the manual of arms on all of these pistols and I know that I can defend my family and home with each, especailly against your average thug/gang banger.



If you're winning IDPA matches, you're probably not using adiquate cover. Now, you can train correctly at an IDPA match, but you will invariably loose.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 2:34:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
Hmmmm....as I look into the safe I see 1911,1911,1911,1911,1911,1911,1911 and a P-35



Sounds just about right. You're missing some revolvers though

R
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:33:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:53:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Hmmmm....as I look into the safe I see 1911,1911,1911,1911,1911,1911,1911 and a P-35



Sounds just about right. You're missing some revolvers though

R



I got to go to one of the other safes for that. and they're in .45 Colt.



WHEW!!! I was getting worried.


Rich
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 9:30:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Originally Posted By twistedcomrade:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Manual of arms is overrated, in my opinion.

I own about one of everything, and my carry guns can range from a 1911 to a small revolver. But I never have trouble operating them at speed because I have practiced extensively with all of them, and don't have to worry about making them work.

I handle my Walther P99 as efortlessly as my Beretta 92 or my Glock 26.




I agree %100. I think some here think that if you can't win an IDPA match or something like that, then you can't properly (sp) defend yourself. I think good training and match shooting are great, but all of my shooting is done on my land with my brother. When I carry I usually carry my G26, but there are times when I carry my 92FS or SW1911. I'm comfortable with the manual of arms on all of these pistols and I know that I can defend my family and home with each, especailly against your average thug/gang banger.



If you're winning IDPA matches, you're probably not using adiquate cover. Now, you can train correctly at an IDPA match, but you will invariably loose.



Your probably right. I think Jeff Cooper said the trophy isn't important, learning defense skills is. I've never shot a pistol match, but I have practiced clearing my house.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:45:51 AM EDT
I have to ask what is it you are giving up with a 1911? To me, a lightweight Commander or Colt CCO is the high point of carry weapons. But even with that, I have no prob packing a full size 1911 in the right rig.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:56:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 8:59:58 AM EDT by vandal]

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
I have to ask what is it you are giving up with a 1911? To me, a lightweight Commander or Colt CCO is the high point of carry weapons. But even with that, I have no prob packing a full size 1911 in the right rig.



My Kimber Compact CDP makes a great carry gun, no doubt. Thin, light, powerful, accurate.

But I think it boils down to flexibility. With the 1911 everything has to be just right -- make sure your plunger tube hasn't loosened up, that your ambi safety hasn't loosened up, that it's not rusting, that it's properly lubed, that the ammo you're using doesn't rub on the slide stop, that your magazine lips haven't started to spread, that you don't drop the slide on a empty chamber, that your safety is disengaged, that your grip safety is depressed... and if all those things are in alignment then it's "the finest combat handgun out there" I guess that's why they say the 1911 requires a "dedicated user." And that's fine, as long as the reward for being a dedicated user is a real-world reward and outweighs the effort.

The Glock is a very good gun without all the hassle. It lets me focus more on my shooting and less on my hardware. I can go twice as long without reloading. Long range accuracy suffers compared to the 1911 but I think that is less likely to be useful to me than capacity. Lastly (and this is a personal issue) if the SHTF my Glock and my HK94 use the same ammo, and I can carry twice as much of it.


Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:24:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:34:45 PM EDT by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By twistedcomrade:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Originally Posted By twistedcomrade:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Manual of arms is overrated, in my opinion.

I own about one of everything, and my carry guns can range from a 1911 to a small revolver. But I never have trouble operating them at speed because I have practiced extensively with all of them, and don't have to worry about making them work.

I handle my Walther P99 as efortlessly as my Beretta 92 or my Glock 26.




I agree %100. I think some here think that if you can't win an IDPA match or something like that, then you can't properly (sp) defend yourself. I think good training and match shooting are great, but all of my shooting is done on my land with my brother. When I carry I usually carry my G26, but there are times when I carry my 92FS or SW1911. I'm comfortable with the manual of arms on all of these pistols and I know that I can defend my family and home with each, especailly against your average thug/gang banger.



If you're winning IDPA matches, you're probably not using adiquate cover. Now, you can train correctly at an IDPA match, but you will invariably loose.



Your probably right. I think Jeff Cooper said the trophy isn't important, learning defense skills is. I've never shot a pistol match, but I have practiced clearing my house.



With a timed match people make mistakes trying to beat the clock. Geting to cover should be done as quickly as possible, but then you have to let off, make sure you're as concealed as you can be and be slow and deliberate in your actions. In IDPA matches i see a lot of guys stand up, fire some rounds quick, run to the next station, stand straight up, fire off some more rounds. I'm sure you can see the problem. It's not who finishes first with the least amout of misses, it's who finishes with the least amout of holes in them. Do some FOF and you realize that unless you are moving rapidly (almost flat out sprinting) while shooting and scoring hits you're gonna get hit at CQB distances. Granted you're fighting some rediculously skilled gunfighters in training, which makes dispatching the street thug without getting perforated a slight bit easier.

You're ahead of most. I'm amazed at the amount of people who haven't gone through their house figuring out where cover and concealment are, exactly how to pie each corner. Not questioning you, but for gods sake make sure you're clearing it right. Take a good class on home defense tactics. Tactical response is my recommendation. They do a good deal of force on force in their HD class and that's the way to train. As real as possible. I know a lot of guys had the shakes after coming out of some scenarios.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:44:27 PM EDT
I have GOT to get some FOF in...
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 3:04:32 PM EDT
The other nice thing about Tactical responce's class was they we're just using airsoft, but glocks modified for UTM paint marker rounds.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:50:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vandal:

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
I have to ask what is it you are giving up with a 1911? To me, a lightweight Commander or Colt CCO is the high point of carry weapons. But even with that, I have no prob packing a full size 1911 in the right rig.



My Kimber Compact CDP makes a great carry gun, no doubt. Thin, light, powerful, accurate.

But I think it boils down to flexibility. With the 1911 everything has to be just right -- make sure your plunger tube hasn't loosened up, that your ambi safety hasn't loosened up, that it's not rusting, that it's properly lubed, that the ammo you're using doesn't rub on the slide stop, that your magazine lips haven't started to spread, that you don't drop the slide on a empty chamber, that your safety is disengaged, that your grip safety is depressed... and if all those things are in alignment then it's "the finest combat handgun out there" I guess that's why they say the 1911 requires a "dedicated user." And that's fine, as long as the reward for being a dedicated user is a real-world reward and outweighs the effort.

The Glock is a very good gun without all the hassle. It lets me focus more on my shooting and less on my hardware. I can go twice as long without reloading. Long range accuracy suffers compared to the 1911 but I think that is less likely to be useful to me than capacity. Lastly (and this is a personal issue) if the SHTF my Glock and my HK94 use the same ammo, and I can carry twice as much of it.





I can see that to a point. But aren't you really saying a popperly manufactured 1911 will do the trick? In the 5 colts I have, I have not had any of those issues. One of the things I have never liked about some of the 1911 brands is they are built too dang tight. They are not supposed to be that way. By JMB specs, they should be tight in the barrel lock up with some slop in the slide to frame fit. That combo rids the 1911 of the issues you speak up and truth be told the way tight 1911s only deliver fractional accuracy over a looser slide to frame fit.

One thing I have noticed is people will compare a Glock or Sig to a 1911, when they should be comparing to a Kimber, SA, or Colt.

And to each his own, everyone has their req's. Mine is CCW, the wide grip of the Glocks don't fit my hand or how I carry. And most gunfights are within 15 feet and 3 shots, so I can live with 7 or 8 rounds of 45. I have gone through a lot of trial and error and research and keep coming up with my CCO as to what fits my needs. But there is no denying that the Glock is a great and simple weapon. I am always curious about what criteria people use when they make decisions like these.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:28:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 6:29:25 PM EDT by drobs]

Originally Posted By vandal:

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
I have to ask what is it you are giving up with a 1911? To me, a lightweight Commander or Colt CCO is the high point of carry weapons. But even with that, I have no prob packing a full size 1911 in the right rig.



My Kimber Compact CDP makes a great carry gun, no doubt. Thin, light, powerful, accurate.

But I think it boils down to flexibility. With the 1911 everything has to be just right -- make sure your plunger tube hasn't loosened up, that your ambi safety hasn't loosened up, that it's not rusting, that it's properly lubed, that the ammo you're using doesn't rub on the slide stop, that your magazine lips haven't started to spread, that you don't drop the slide on a empty chamber, that your safety is disengaged, that your grip safety is depressed... and if all those things are in alignment then it's "the finest combat handgun out there" I guess that's why they say the 1911 requires a "dedicated user." And that's fine, as long as the reward for being a dedicated user is a real-world reward and outweighs the effort.

The Glock is a very good gun without all the hassle. It lets me focus more on my shooting and less on my hardware. I can go twice as long without reloading. Long range accuracy suffers compared to the 1911 but I think that is less likely to be useful to me than capacity. Lastly (and this is a personal issue) if the SHTF my Glock and my HK94 use the same ammo, and I can carry twice as much of it.





While I agree about the glock, I lost you on the red area.

I don't think I've ever seen a loosened up plunger tube, infact I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber won't hurt a 1911, unless you are doing it over and over. Heck look at those old real GI WWII 1911's those guns were certainly beat to hell and are still around today.

I have a Colt that has the slide stop issue (think it's more of a Colt lack of QC issue).

I have never once had to think about disengaging the grip safety of a 1911, much less the safety.

With the 1911, I have found which mags work for me and which are crap, sadly I think Wilson mags are crap.



I think you need to buy a cheap ass Rock Island GI style 1911. Mine is just as reliable as my Glocks. The damn thing works every time. It feeds everything.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 11:57:54 AM EDT
I guess 8-9 rounds is probably sufficient. However when people quote the "Average 3 shots in a gunfight" I have to wonder -- some of the more forward-thinking trainers are talking about minimum responses of 3 or 4 rounds, or firing an initial "burst", shooting them to the ground, etc. If firing from a retention position for example, I would think three initial rounds to the gut/groin area followed by a two or three rounds to the upper torso while withdrawing... that would be five or six rounds -- hopefully there aren't more than two hostiles.

I was carrying my Compact CDP today so I'm obviously still of two minds on the issue. It's driving me mad.

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 12:09:58 PM EDT
Everything has it's place.

I have 4 Glocks, 6 1911's, Walther P99QA, S&W 9mm, S&W 357, Ruger 44Mag, Walther PPK, and other assorted goodies.

I like them all, some work better for CCW than others, others pack more of a punch. Glocks may not have as much smoothness as others but for their simplicity they can't be beat.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 9:02:38 PM EDT
Forget everything I wrote, I am back in love with the 1911.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 9:10:55 PM EDT
once again, do some force on force and you'll see the need for more ammo.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 10:05:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

Forget everything I wrote, I am back in love with the 1911.

once again, do some force on force and you'll see the need for more ammo.



You're right... you're right... thanks for talking me down, man. We now return you to your regular Glock 9mm program...
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