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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:54:35 AM EST
I'm selling a handgun, doesn't that need to be done with a FFL? If not, great, just want to be safe.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:56:46 AM EST
FTF is ok, especially in TX, without an FFL.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:57:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
FTF is ok, especially in TX, without an FFL.



Cool thanks.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:10:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:30:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 7:36:30 AM EST by THellURider]

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By THellURider:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
FTF is ok, especially in TX, without an FFL.



Cool thanks.



You need to make an effort to know you are not selling to known felon. That you are not selling to a minor. That you are not selling to a person that you know to be unable to own/possess a firearm.

Copy of DL will confirm age.

The rest...? You should ask them them.

The burden is on YOU, not them, to be incompliance with the restrictions on sales to prohibited persons.

Keeping a copy of their DL info is a good idea in case the gun is ever used in a crime. You can pull the info and show where the gun went after you possessed it.

TRG



Allright, copy of the DL is in the plans. Should I print out a little sheet saying "I, _____, will not use this firearm in a crime blah blah. I am not a felon bllah blah" And have them sign that too?

Thanks TRG.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:02:45 PM EST
What bullshit....

You dont need all that to make a FTF deal. Just make sure the person is of age. No copies needed.

Here is what I have done... sat down at the computer and printed a sales receipt that states the following...

Receipt of Sale



Name of Seller:_________________________________________________________________________

Seller’s Date of Birth:_______________________
Seller’s Drivers License Number:_________________

Name of Purchaser:______________________________________________________________________

Purchaser’s Date of Birth:____________________
Purchaser’s Drivers License Number:______________

Selling Price:____________________ Date:____________________


Gun Make/Model:_______________________________________________________________________


Serial Number:_________________________________________________________________________


I _________________________________________________ do hereby sell this firearm to the above named individual with the understanding that said buyer has no legal reason that would prevent the buyer’s lawful ownership of the above mentioned firearm as advised by the purchaser.

To the best of the Sellers knowledge this firearm is in good working condition. I have implied no warranty outside of what is provided (if any) by the firearm manufacturer. All warranty information, work, issues, or questions should be addressed to the manufacturer, not the seller. The Seller is not responsible in any way, shape, or form, for injury, damage, or death caused by this firearm, or the Purchaser. Seller is not responsible for any misuse or abuse caused to property or persons by/to this firearm, or purchaser.

The Seller has been given no reason to believe this firearm is being purchased for any other than legal and responsible ownership.

ALWAYS treat firearms as if they were loaded. Never point a firearm anything you don’t intend to shoot. Always keep firearms out of the hands of children. Never place your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Learn and obey all Federal, State, and Local firearms laws. Always keep firearms in excellent working condition by following maintenance procedures recommended by the manufacturer.

This sale is final.


____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Seller / Signature of Seller)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Purchaser / Signature of Purchaser)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Witness / Signature of Witness)



Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:22:01 PM EST
I haven't seen any mention so far that the purchaser MUST be a resident of the same state. That is, if YOU are the seller and you are a legal resident of Texas, the purchaser MUST also be a Texas resident. Just something to check for.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:16:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By THellURider:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
FTF is ok, especially in TX, without an FFL.



Cool thanks.



You need to make an effort to know you are not selling to known felon. That you are not selling to a minor. That you are not selling to a person that you know to be unable to own/possess a firearm.

Copy of DL will confirm age.

The rest...? You should ask them them.

The burden is on YOU, not them, to be incompliance with the restrictions on sales to prohibited persons.

Keeping a copy of their DL info is a good idea in case the gun is ever used in a crime. You can pull the info and show where the gun went after you possessed it.

TRG



Actually, the Gun Control Act does not require any record keeping. FAQs B1 and B2, which are posted on the web site in the "Firearms" section makes this clear.

Of course, the transferor (seller) may not knowingly transfer a firearm to anyone who falls into a prohibited category. For example, if you know your purchaser is under age you may not transfer a firearm to that person.

However, no record keeping is required and you are in the clear as long as you do not knowingly transfer to an unqualified individual in the state in which you reside.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:05:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
What bullshit....

You dont need all that to make a FTF deal. Just make sure the person is of age. No copies needed.

Here is what I have done... sat down at the computer and printed a sales receipt that states the following...

Receipt of Sale



Name of Seller:_________________________________________________________________________

Seller’s Date of Birth:_______________________
Seller’s Drivers License Number:_________________

Name of Purchaser:______________________________________________________________________

Purchaser’s Date of Birth:____________________
Purchaser’s Drivers License Number:______________

Selling Price:____________________ Date:____________________


Gun Make/Model:_______________________________________________________________________


Serial Number:_________________________________________________________________________


I _________________________________________________ do hereby sell this firearm to the above named individual with the understanding that said buyer has no legal reason that would prevent the buyer’s lawful ownership of the above mentioned firearm as advised by the purchaser.

To the best of the Sellers knowledge this firearm is in good working condition. I have implied no warranty outside of what is provided (if any) by the firearm manufacturer. All warranty information, work, issues, or questions should be addressed to the manufacturer, not the seller. The Seller is not responsible in any way, shape, or form, for injury, damage, or death caused by this firearm, or the Purchaser. Seller is not responsible for any misuse or abuse caused to property or persons by/to this firearm, or purchaser.

The Seller has been given no reason to believe this firearm is being purchased for any other than legal and responsible ownership.

ALWAYS treat firearms as if they were loaded. Never point a firearm anything you don’t intend to shoot. Always keep firearms out of the hands of children. Never place your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Learn and obey all Federal, State, and Local firearms laws. Always keep firearms in excellent working condition by following maintenance procedures recommended by the manufacturer.

This sale is final.


____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Seller / Signature of Seller)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Purchaser / Signature of Purchaser)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Witness / Signature of Witness)







Like you said in your first line above.......


Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:54:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:17:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 5:18:31 AM EST by TheRedGoat]
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:59:29 AM EST
Sorry but what does FTF mean?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:00:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:28:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
§ 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A
person commits an offense if the person:
(1) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be
delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an
unlawful act;
(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases,
or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child
younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;
(3) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a
firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who is
intoxicated;
(4) knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition for a
firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony before the
fifth anniversary of the later of the following dates:
(A) the person's release from confinement
following conviction of the felony; or
(B) the person's release from supervision under
community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision following
conviction of the felony;
(5) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that an active protective order is directed to
the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered; or
(6) knowingly purchases, rents, leases, or receives as
a loan or gift from another a handgun while an active protective
order is directed to the actor.
(b) In this section:
(1) "Intoxicated" means substantial impairment of
mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any
substance into the body.
(2) "Active protective order" means a protective order
issued under Title 4, Family Code, that is in effect. The term does
not include a temporary protective order issued before the court
holds a hearing on the matter.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under
Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or
the person having legal custody of the minor had given written
permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale,
the parent or person having legal custody had given effective
consent.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor,
except that an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail
felony if the weapon that is the subject of the offense is a
handgun.



Interesting, this section specifically mentions handgun on most lines. What about Rifle/shotguns or just receivers? Also, no states no requirment of the buyer and seller living in the same state?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:36:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:06:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 8:06:55 AM EST by shotgun]

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By shotgun:
Sorry but what does FTF mean?



Face to Face in the context of a sale.

Failure to Fire in the context of a misfiring weapon.



Thanks, I knew the second one. And I hope that little form isn't copyrighted. I printed it out. Gonna sell an AK soon.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:45:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
What bullshit....

You dont need all that to make a FTF deal. Just make sure the person is of age. No copies needed.

Here is what I have done... sat down at the computer and printed a sales receipt that states the following...

Receipt of Sale



Name of Seller:_________________________________________________________________________

Seller’s Date of Birth:_______________________
Seller’s Drivers License Number:_________________

Name of Purchaser:______________________________________________________________________

Purchaser’s Date of Birth:____________________
Purchaser’s Drivers License Number:______________

Selling Price:____________________ Date:____________________


Gun Make/Model:_______________________________________________________________________


Serial Number:_________________________________________________________________________


I _________________________________________________ do hereby sell this firearm to the above named individual with the understanding that said buyer has no legal reason that would prevent the buyer’s lawful ownership of the above mentioned firearm as advised by the purchaser.

To the best of the Sellers knowledge this firearm is in good working condition. I have implied no warranty outside of what is provided (if any) by the firearm manufacturer. All warranty information, work, issues, or questions should be addressed to the manufacturer, not the seller. The Seller is not responsible in any way, shape, or form, for injury, damage, or death caused by this firearm, or the Purchaser. Seller is not responsible for any misuse or abuse caused to property or persons by/to this firearm, or purchaser.

The Seller has been given no reason to believe this firearm is being purchased for any other than legal and responsible ownership.

ALWAYS treat firearms as if they were loaded. Never point a firearm anything you don’t intend to shoot. Always keep firearms out of the hands of children. Never place your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Learn and obey all Federal, State, and Local firearms laws. Always keep firearms in excellent working condition by following maintenance procedures recommended by the manufacturer.

This sale is final.


____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Seller / Signature of Seller)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Purchaser / Signature of Purchaser)



____________________________________________/_____________________________________
(Printed Name of Witness / Signature of Witness)







Like you said in your first line above.......





Even FTF you can not sell a handgun to a prohibited person. If you sell a gun to a felon, or a minor, or a person prohibited to owning a handgun, you are breaking the law. It may seem like BS, but that is the way the law is written.

If you ask them questions, and they sign a form stating they are NOT prohibited from owning a handgun, then you have at least some DEFENSE to prosecution.

TRG



exactly my point! have the dude fill out the form... its not your responsibility to check the background of the guy buying it. With this form I have created at least he has signed a document that gives me reason to believe he is not buying the gun for illegal purposes... (and laws vary from state to state).

As a responsible gun owner I am not going to sell a firearm to any one I dont feel is buying it for legal reasons so if I get a "bad feelilng" about a guy, its not even going to get as far as talking prices...

But anyone can be fooled.

In a ftf deal there is no burden for the seller to do a "background check". He just has to have no knowledge of the buyers illegal intentions.

If the buyer runs out and commits a crime with it, the law is not going to come hunting for the seller (at least until/if Kerry gets elected) and I have not yet heard of a case where a well-intentioned gun seller selling in good faith was ever held responsible for the actions of a deceptive gun-buyer.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:47:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
§ 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A
person commits an offense if the person:
(1) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be
delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an
unlawful act;
(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases,
or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child
younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;
(3) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a
firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who is
intoxicated;
(4) knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition for a
firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony before the
fifth anniversary of the later of the following dates:
(A) the person's release from confinement
following conviction of the felony; or
(B) the person's release from supervision under
community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision following
conviction of the felony;
(5) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that an active protective order is directed to
the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered; or
(6) knowingly purchases, rents, leases, or receives as
a loan or gift from another a handgun while an active protective
order is directed to the actor.
(b) In this section:
(1) "Intoxicated" means substantial impairment of
mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any
substance into the body.
(2) "Active protective order" means a protective order
issued under Title 4, Family Code, that is in effect. The term does
not include a temporary protective order issued before the court
holds a hearing on the matter.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under
Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or
the person having legal custody of the minor had given written
permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale,
the parent or person having legal custody had given effective
consent.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor,
except that an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail
felony if the weapon that is the subject of the offense is a
handgun.




Notice here it specifiys KNOWINGLY or INTENTIONALLY...

Look ... to the guy selling the gun... if you are worried about the guy buying it, then go thru an ffl. Always better safe than sorry!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:04:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Notice here it specifiys KNOWINGLY or INTENTIONALLY...



EXACTAMUNDO!!! You dont commit ANY offense if you sell to a felon, underage, etc.... only if you KNOW they are..... and nowhere does it say you HAVE to ask/pry/copy/verify.

When I sell a handgun/rifle..... they hand me the cash, I hand them the weapon. Only if they looked like they might be under 18 (or close), would I ask for any ID.
That's it. Nothing else required. It's a tool. Like a knife, or a garden rake.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:11:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Bear_B:
Notice here it specifiys KNOWINGLY or INTENTIONALLY...



EXACTAMUNDO!!! You dont commit ANY offense if you sell to a felon, underage, etc.... only if you KNOW they are..... and nowhere does it say you HAVE to ask/pry/copy/verify.

When I sell a handgun/rifle..... they hand me the cash, I hand them the weapon. Only if they looked like they might be under 18 (or close), would I ask for any ID.
That's it. Nothing else required. It's a tool. Like a knife, or a garden rake.



Thank you.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:52:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:55:26 PM EST
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