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Posted: 4/27/2008 12:24:13 PM EST
I was wondering what the German Police were using as their standard round.
Link Posted: 4/27/2008 5:19:10 PM EST
Don't you imagine that they use NATO ball or something similar?
Link Posted: 4/28/2008 12:49:27 AM EST
The German police have used a variety of FMJ's and JHP's made by both Dynami Noble and Geco, to name a few.

Two rounds known to have been used by various German military/LE units are the Geco BAT and Action Safety rounds.

The Geco BAT or Blitz Action Trauma is conventional lead core/copper cup JHP weighing 86 grains. It has a stated muzzle velocity of 1400 +/- FPS. This concept of this round is similar to 5.56 M193 or M855, to exploit fragmentation as a wounding mechanism.
The low weight, light construction and high velocity cause this round to rapidly expand and come apart after penetrating a short distance. It causes very nasty, large wounds-similar to those caused by bird shot from a 12 gauge shotgun. Penetration of this round is around 6 inches in bare gel, as opposed to the FBI reccomended 12, which makes it less than ideal for LE/general SD use.

While it doesn't meet the FBI minimum, that isn't always bad. This round will also penetrate walls/barriers poorly, which could be advantageous depending on your living situation. Its arguable a "safer" alternative than some type of bonded/heavy JHP, which is sure to pose a down-range risk. This ammo is expensive and very uncommon. If this concept/performance interestes you, Corbon loads ammo which is practically identical in construction/performance. In 9mm, they offer a 90grn+P JHP which is advertised as having a MV of 1425 FPS. This load utilizes a Sierra JHP, which has a large ogive and light construction. Even 115 and 124 grn +P loads penetrate only to about 8 inches and are notorious for fragmentation/core seperation.

Another load in use by some German agencies is the Geco 100grn Action Safety JHP. This round is a derrivation of an original round, designed primarily for the MP5 and older handguns. Older automatic handguns, primarily those made/used in Europe weren't compatible with JHP ammo. The MP5 is also a weapon which isn't compatible/ideal with JHP ammo. Geco developed a convetional JHP with a tapered ogive that has a polymer ball inserted into the opening. The conture of this round replicates that of a FMJ bullet while providing representiive JHP performance. Upon impact, the polymer ball pushes back into the scored ogive/jacket causing it to rapidly expand. It functions reasonably well in MP5's and other handguns not suited for JHP use. Its performance is less than that of Western JHP's like the Ranger T or HST, but its an improvement over FMJ ammo. One consequence of this ammo is that the polymer ball can become dislodged form the ogive, causing a failure. These Geco rounds can be identifed by thier colored polymer ball, which dictates the model/generation. IIRC, the latest loads are using a green polymer ball.

Before you ask, I don't work for Peter Pi and I only use thier DPX ammo...but Corbon offers a nearly identical round in thier Powerball line. It uses a white polymer ball to approximate a FMJ, though it tends to have better performance than its Geco counterpart. Unless your gun won't feed conventional JHP's, there is no point in using this type of ammo. Federal EFMJ is also a derivation of this type of ammo...

There might be more rounds used by German LE, but these are probably the two most well known.
Link Posted: 4/28/2008 6:20:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/28/2008 9:11:04 AM EST by from_HH]
Duty ammo in use by german police has to comply to certain technical guidelines ("Technische Richtlinie") for police equipment. There are, of course, exceptions for some special assignments, but nowadays usually one of these two loads are found in german police pistols:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/from_HH/HH-P6005-1.jpg

The cartridge with the blue tip is the PEP (="Polizei-Einsatzpatrone" ~ police duty cartridge) made by MEN (= "Metallwerk Elisenhütte Nassau")

The other one with the yellow tip is the Action4 made by Dynamit Nobel AG (DAG, today part of RUAG Ammotec)

Both have basically an all copper alloy hollow point bullet with a color coded plastic insert.

These plastic inserts serve three purposes:
They give the bullet an ogive FMJ-like shape to ensure reliable feeding;
They protect the bullet from getting clogged up with soft material from clothes when entering a body, which tends to prevent proper expansion of the bullet;
They act as starters for proper expansion of the bullet in soft body tissue.

The copper bullets won't be destroyed as easily upon hitting hard surfaces as leadcore bullets would and give more uniform performance. They don't ricochet as easily as traditional FMJ-bullets and they're punching clean non-collapsing holes in vehicle tires.

Previous variants of the MEN PEP were marketed as "Quick Defense" (QD1 through 3) loads. The plastic inserts are color coded (black, red, green) to allow quick reference which load is at hand. They all have a ball shaped plastic insert, which resembles the powerball bullets somewhat, but the copper bullets usually work better overall due to their different material. The different numbers of the original QD loads denote different hardness of the copper alloy, which determines the balance between expansion vs. penetration. The blue tipped PEP is the current version of the QD load for police use.

The DAG / RUAG Action loads generally work along the same line as described above. Their plastic inserts are however not ball shaped, but look like little mushrooms and have a small stem. They're color coded for the same purpose as well. The original Action load differs somewhat in that the bullet has a hole from its base to the hollow cavity. Upon firing the round, the plastic insert (golden colored) is blown out in front of the bullet, which then looks and acts like a classic hollow point bullet.
This load has been marketed in the U.S.A as the BAT load under the old german Geco trademark (Geco = "Gustav Genschow & Co." ; Dynamit Nobel used the Geco trademark for their handgun ammo, while they marketed their rifle ammo under the RWS = "Rheinisch-Westfälische Sprengstoffabriken" trademark). All newer DAG / RUAG Action loads such as the Action Effect (green), Action4 (yellow) and Action5 (black) retain the plastic insert as mentioned above.

Initially, the Action4 had been chosen as our duty load in the city of Hamburg. But after some use it turned out that the tiny yellow plastic insert might seperate from bullets on cartridges that were chambered and extracted multiple times (as is regularly done by many officers at the start / end of their shift, since most german officers chose not to carry off-duty). Although officers are told to change the top cartridges within their magazines often to prevent excessive damage of the ammo, this is not always done. The small plastic insert of the Action4 was suspected to cause jams, if it wedges somewhere in the pistol with its stem. The Action4 was replaced by the PEP to address this perceived liability issue, because the bigger ball shaped insert of the PEP seems to be less prone for this failure.

We still use FMJ ammo for training only, as it's cheaper and the lower pressure of the FMJ ammo is easier on the pistols.



edited to correct some typos
Link Posted: 4/29/2008 8:25:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/29/2008 9:48:14 AM EST
Thats actually a very good idea to have the plastic caps on the HPs to ensure smooth feeding. The Germans think of everything lol.
Link Posted: 4/30/2008 12:28:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Esq1118:
Thats actually a very good idea to have the plastic caps on the HPs to ensure smooth feeding. The Germans think of everything lol.


Good history of engineering in Germany.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 5:14:28 PM EST
Ok, so what ammo is available domestically that has caps like those? Any recommendations? I don't think I am finding that German ammo anywhere around here!!!

Mike
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 7:39:57 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Mikeyworks:
Ok, so what ammo is available domestically that has caps like those? Any recommendations? I don't think I am finding that German ammo anywhere around here!!!

Mike


Those caps are very similar to the Extreme Shock 85 Grain "Anti-Terrorist-Munitions" rated at 1531 FPS. I've also seen these referred to as the "Air Freedom Round" supposedly for use by Air marshalls. There's also the Glaser Safety Slug 80 Gr rated at 1650 FPS.
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 12:42:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2008 12:43:22 PM EST by DirtyDrew]
glaser pow'r ball
Link Posted: 5/30/2008 3:15:11 PM EST
Great info. Glad to see we have some friends from Germany here.

I bought one of the "surplus" P6 P225 guns a couple of months ago because I did not own a SIG pistol. It was in great shape except for some holster wear and shoots great. Unlike some folks, mine has shot every hollowpoint round I tried in it...including 147 sub-sonic.

I did test it out with about 100 rounds of Pow'R Ball 10gr from Cor-Bon. It shoots extremely well with that round and I figured that if somebody out there was having problems feeding JHP I might as well shoot something in it that had a "ball" profile.

I do not carry it often...it's more of a fun gun for the range though. I just HAD to have a SIG and the price was right. $310

Link Posted: 5/30/2008 3:24:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By from_HH:
Duty ammo in use by german police has to comply to certain technical guidelines ("Technische Richtlinie") for police equipment. There are, of course, exceptions for some special assignments, but nowadays usually one of these two loads are found in german police pistols:

...good info snipped...


edited to correct some typos


Is there info on weight and velocities on these rounds?
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 3:25:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2008 3:29:40 AM EST by from_HH]
Here are some pdf-documents:

MEN PEP

Action4


edited to add another link for the Action4: click

Link Posted: 6/1/2008 6:25:37 AM EST
To summarize from the PDFs.

QD PEP II/S round : 90 grains at 420m/s (1378 fps) Jacketed hollow point with plastic ball at tip. 380 fpe (515 Joules)

Action 4 round: 95 grains at 420m/s (1378 fps) Solid copper hollow point with plastic ball at tip 400 fpe (543 joules)


Link Posted: 6/4/2008 1:41:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 1:45:12 PM EST by wolfpak]

Originally Posted By billy396:

Originally Posted By Mikeyworks:
Ok, so what ammo is available domestically that has caps like those? Any recommendations? I don't think I am finding that German ammo anywhere around here!!!

Mike


Those caps are very similar to the Extreme Shock 85 Grain "Anti-Terrorist-Munitions" rated at 1531 FPS. I've also seen these referred to as the "Air Freedom Round" supposedly for use by Air marshalls. There's also the Glaser Safety Slug 80 Gr rated at 1650 FPS.




Extreme Shock 9MM 85 Grain Tungsten Nytrilium Air Freedom Round

This remarkable round is a terrorists worst nightmare. Unlike rounds made of polymers that can generate lethal ricochet, the extreme shock afr round will turn to harmless powder if it misses its intended target and hits a hard surface. It is the only round in the world with this level of performance and safety. This is also possibly the world's safest home defense round, as in most circumstances, it will fragment in standard 1 half inch sheet rock wallboard. This bullet runs at plus-p type pressures, and should be used only in firearms of good construction and good working order.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: 9MM85AFR20
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber :9 MM
Bullet Type :Tungsten Nytrilium Air Freedom Round
Bullet Weight :85 GR
Muzzle Energy :442 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity :1531 fps
Rounds/box :20 Rounds Per Box



http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=49&idp=48&his=0|48&cart_id=7137451.2804
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