Hello all,

Ive spent most of my time on the AR side of this website but have been slowly gravitating to the handgun forum for a while.  A question arose between myself and some friends at the range, is 5 or 6 rounds of .38 +P in a small frame revolver preferable to 6 or 7 rounds of .380 or 9mm in a semi auto package?  I can see an argument in both directions but when an IWB/OWB carry is out of the question due to either, climate, circumstance or just simplicity of carry, would a pocket revolver or a pocket semi auto be favored for both concealability and personal protection?

Thanks!

Ive owned both (Keltec .380 and S&W 642 .38spl). I always come back to the revolver, it just makes sense. It always goes bang, no safety or mags to worry about, dont have to worry about whether a round is in the chamber, etc etc. Shooting a micro semi actually sux, even the Keltec .32 was brutal on the hands. The S&W wasnt near as bad. The small semi probably conceals a lil better but Id rather have a gun ill shot and works each time I pull the trigger.

Where I live, I wear cargo shorts 99% of the time. I havent had any issues concealing a .38spl , either on my belt outside the pants or tossed in my pocket for quick trip to stores.

Pocket carry only, I'll take a KelTec for the concealability.

In summary: Neither is adequate in my opinion. They are popular because they are convenient, not because they are effective.

My opinion is that snub nose .38s and .380 and 9mm small pocket autos are hold out guns. They are all the rage these days since people choose them for comfort, very easy concealability and will never fire their weapon in self defense.

These small pistols and revolvers suffer from low ammuntion capacity, woefully inadequate sights, and some are of suspect quality or questionable material choice for a fighting handgun.  If I am going to carry a gun I am going to bring a full or mid size duty handgun that is fielded by a military service and/or police force in a 1st world country. I can carry a Glock 23 and a spare mag all day long in a IWB holster with minimal discomfort. But it isn't as comfortable as a mouse gun, nor is it as easy to conceal.

Gun fighting rules:

1. Have a gun. This means don't leave it in your car. It is in a holster you can quickly draw from on your person that you are familiar and comfortable wearing

2. Bring enough gun. This means no mouse guns, derringers and other guns which are hold out guns. Made to be carried as secondary or tertiary BACKUP weapons.

3. Bring enough ammo: Carry a reload.

4. Shoot straighter than your enemy who is trying to kill you. Get training and practice with your carry piece every chance you get. That doesn't mean plinking from a range. It means getting dirty, firing from standing, kneeling, supine (laying on back) and prone from every piece of cover you can think up. It means means practicing dry firing and drawing (w/ snap caps, safety first!). You had better have a real reason to swap between make/models of firearms. Muscle memory is a powerful thing and in a piss your pants lethal force encounter you will revert to your LOWEST level of training. I do not rotate or change my EDC gun for this reason.

5. Have a light. target ID and know your backstop.

6. I always carry pepper spray because I really don't want to shoot someone that could be handled with pepper spray.

As someone who has carried a gun for a living as a combat infantryman and as a police officer that is just like my opinion man.

Mouse guns are for...mice. 38+P is better than the mouse gun but not as good as a mid or full size gun. There are lots of options for carrying the larger weapons concealed. That is unless you are wearing a full spandex body suit.

In a comparison of small framed guns the revolver wins every time for me.

Far more reliable.
.38+P > .380. 9mm ? - see line above.
A hammerless revolver can be fired multiple times from within a pocket.
There's never a question of whether a revolver is chambered.
If ammo runs out & there's no time for reload, a revolver makes a better brass-knuckles.

I haven't found a small auto that fits me as well as a J-Frame, and I've owned 3 little mouse guns.

-JC

Edit to fix a mistake.

These are all great opinions!  And I 100% agree with y'all about having a larger handgun for daily carry and my P-07 fits that bill well! Just a day at the pool or the gym makes larger guns difficult.

I have both for my moods.  For dress slacks (I wear them everyday for work) I go with my Kahr PM9.  

For other days, its the M&P 340.  Both will do the job just fine.

Owning both a P3AT and a few S&W 642s,  I found the 642 a lot easier to grip and draw from a pocket.   These are +P rated and I believe .38 +P is slightly better for penetration than .380.

it does depend on your comfort with a semi auto.

I find the semi auto conceal better. they are thinner, and leave less of a bulge in your pocket.

that being said, I also prefer iwb carry even for my pocket gun. p238.

would it be better to carry a full size 45, sure.

but there are days that you can't or wouldn't bother.

it is better to have a gun you will carry, then one you leave at home.

36 oz unloaded, full size 1911.
29 for lightweight commander.
16 oz for a 238.

while a good belt and holster help you forget about it, you can still feel it.
walking around all day carrying an extra pound vs 2 and a half makes a difference.

Both have advantages and disadvantages that have already been mentioned, so I'll only add a couple things:

Semi autos like the LCP conceal a lot better than revolvers in pockets.  My J frame creates a bulge. Not a huge deal in cargo shorts...more noticeable in slacks.  

Either one is going to take quite a bit of practice to get proficient with.  Shooting tiny pocket guns is very different from shooting full sized guns.

38+P loaded hot is barely sufficient for a defensive caliber.
.380ACP is a joke.
I'd rather have 5 rounds @ >300ft/lb than 7 rounds @ basically .22lr energies.

Aside from that, the smaller the semiauto the less reliable it is.  J frames don't suffer from reliability problems.

Smallest 9mm that i'd trust my life to is NOT small enough for pocket carry.  Smallest .38SPL i would trust my life to is.  So either go J frame or go 8+1 single stack 9mm (S&W 3913 or other) on your belt directly.
JMHO YMMV

So much misinformation about revolvers gets spread around.



They really are not that great.  





People just think they are because they hear all the shit that gets parroted around about them, or shoot them under ideal conditions.



Not going to waste a bunch of time arguing predisposed opinions. OP, if you want to hear the drawbacks of revolvers let me know. There's a few, and they are pretty important.





For everyone advocating revolvers, I ask this...



What is the immediate action drill, for a revolver?


 

Depends on the revolver.  

Lemat?  Hit them with it.

J-frame?  Throw it and run like a little girl.  

Draw the second one

-JC

BAHHH! Beat by 20 minutes.


I may be an statistical abnormality, but out of the many small caliber pocket autos I've shot, I've never been able to trust one 100%.  There would always be a jam or stovepipe or something once in a great while that would give me pause on carrying it.  I know this is a broad generalization but it's just my personal experience.

I carry a Smith 442 Revolver a lot of the time.  Yes, it's less than ideal, but all handguns are a compromise in one way or another. I've been very pleased with it's reliability and how well it carries.

I used to be of the opinion that I would always pack my Glock 17 with me.  A real gun, with lots of capacity, and good sights.  But I found that life gets in the way, and more often than not I was leaving it at home because I wasn't able to conceal it well or dress around it.   Rule 1 after all is "have a gun."

So my recommendation is a Smith Airweight or Airlite J frame.

Here is a story of a potential catastrophe averted by a cop with balls of steel and a lowly J frame.  The story doesn't cite it specifically, but I seem to remember at the time that was the info passed around was that he had a 5 shot J frame concealed on him.

Nope, just a sample size of one.



 

I'd never carry anything less than .38 +P I carry a revolver (M&P340) off duty because its small, but I also have .357 magnum in it with 8 are rounds on my belt. With 9mm handguns getting so small, there's no need to resort to carrying a .380 handgun.

All great points! I'm siding towards the revolver over the smaller semi auto. Any recommendations of small revolver?

So, you'd choose a limited capacity, slow to reload, bulky pistol over a slimmer easier to conceal pistol, that's faster to reload that can even have spare magazines that hold a greater capacity than the concealed one, and have a ballistic advantage when it comes to short barrels?  





To each their own.
 

S&W  airweight. 400 series (black) or 600 series (stainless).

Its up to you if you want....

exposed hammer, (437)

humpback w/ shrouded hammer (438)

no exposed hammer. (442)

I actually prefer model 438. humpback with shrouded hammer.

I also prefer Pre-lock models, less to go wrong.

What slim pocket autos would you reccomend then?

.38 SPL > .380

I'm torn on this issue as well, I think in arfom fashion I have decided to add both a .380 and a .38 snub nose.  That way when my M&P 9 FS is too big, I have my G26.  When my G26 is too big I have my .38.  When the .38 wont do, I can drop down to my .380.  Options are a CCW's best friend .

here is a simple equation for why an auto is better then a revolver.  

I look at it like this. Having that pocket gun is for times when your ready to walk out of the house and leaving your full size at home leaving you with nothing. I have a Springfield Champion Operator, a Kahr P45 or Glock 23 for my full size that I carry but there are times that I carry a J frame Smith ot my Kahr P380 when running up to the gas station or drug store.. I live in an area that I feel having the pocket gun serves me since it is usually no more than a ten minute trip. The Kahr 380 has night sights and is an accurate weapon so I shoot it better than my 442. If going out for the evening and heading down into the city I would always carry one of the other full size but its nice to have that option. And for the person who posted the rage pocket pistols are for the people who would never use it in self defense know when you will ever need a weapon for self defense. That's why you expand your carry weapons to include a pocket pistol so you never leave home without one. I spent 25 years in law enforcement and in that time saw many a dead body shot with these pocket pistols that some say don't work. Not starting an argument but saying a pocket gun has its uses.

relative size   LCP vs SW442

I carry a J frame because I like it and I change the grips to fit my hand. I've carried Keltec P32, P3AT, Kahr MK9, CM9, Sub XD9, Glock 26 and they all held more rounds and are easier to reload however I'm faster on the draw with my hammer less 38s and can put 5 rounds center mass more accurately due to a good solid grip on the draw. I've trained with my snubbies as much as I have my full size pistols.
For me a snubby is not a last option or better to have than no gun mentality. It's a primary defensive and offensive weapon.

Looks like each has their own strengths. May have to buy both and be my own judge. ha. The XDs 9mm looks promising!

There ya go . But I don't put XDs or baby-Glocks in the same category as the .380 (or smaller) autos.

-JC

Yes, this.  There is a substantial size difference.

Except when they grab your semi by the side and you go to struggling with them, since its unlikely that they grabbed it and kept it pointed at themself, if it was to begin with, and the slide will almost certainly be going in and out of battery so your auto will not neccesarily be firing either. Regardless if you let someone you need to shoot get that close you have a hell of an uphill battle.

As for immediate action drills I would love to see the failure rates of quality modern revolvers vs semi auto by however many rounds it takes to get atleast one failure from each, to include unintentional user induced failures. I've shot a lot of semis of many brands obviously not all, everybrand at some point choked on something, usually ammo or user, sometimes filth or mechanical failures, the only revolver failures I've experienced were poorly maintained guns more than 50yrs old that were slightly out of time or no longer advanced, a couple old ones with amatuer trigger jobs, and a Taurus that a screw came out of and other issues since ensued. While anything mechanical can fail I haven't seen too many S&Ws or Rugers fail.

My advice is the gun you'll carry will serve you a whole hell of a lot better than the one you left at home in the incredibly unlikely event that you find yourself in circumstances requiring one. My preference for EDC when concealment and dress collide is a .38, my wife carries a pocket 9, not in her pocket, its slimmer and more concealabe in the form fitting attire she wears. I have higher capacity handguns and if practical I'll carry one, however I understand the chances I'll need a gun are slim, and the chances I'll be in a protracted gunfight with multiple assailents away from home is quite a bit slimmer, so I don't feel undergunned with a revolver. 38s, .380s, 32s, 25s, and 22s have filled allot bags over the last century or so, are they ideal, no, personally I'd only reccomend the first one, but I'd take any of them over nothing.

Muscle memory is so near to a moot point its hardly worth mentioning, but someone always does. All handgun triggers work the same, almost all common semis have mag and slide releases in virtually identical places, the only big glaring exceptions are 1911s with their thumb safety, the Germans' mag release, and single action revolvers, I carry a 1911 sometimes, and I probably look goofy when you catch me flicking my thumb down on my Glock or LCR everytime, hope the bad guy dies laughing about it. I haven't met many folks carrying single action revolvers outside bear country. If you carry something unusual regularly just make sure your less often carried piece is simpler. Or shoot a whole lot of different handguns for thousands of rounds and you'll be amazed at just how simple almost all of them are to operate without even thinking about it.

I tend to agree with this.

Frankly, I still carry a revolver occasionally just because I practice with them and I can (sometimes "why the hell not" is all the justification you need)....but if I wasn't teaching new shooters I'd probably ditch everything but my single action Ruger, and that one would only get a pass because it completes a set with my lever action rifle.  

Since new shooters express interest in revolvers though, I'd be a crappy teacher if I didn't shoot them well/be willing to help students with them so I use them, shoot them, and occasionally carry them.

But especially these days when extremely thin, lightweight reliable 9mm pocket guns are out there....they're outdated, second best options in my opinion.  

I won't say that you're doomed to lose a gunfight if you carry one or that it is a stupid choice, but I personally think you have better options.

Pretty much all of this.



(I carry an old Colt Cobra occasionally for fun, but I KNOW how inferior it is to my 1911 through years of training and practice)
OP, there's a few decent options for small, single stack 9mm CCW guns, there's a lot for .380 as well.
Don't discount .380 because of it's power. It makes about the same Ft-lbs of energy as traditional .38 special loadings. But the main focus is in penetration, using FMJ .380 runs well and penetrates well, or bullets like the XTP expand well even at low velocity if not make the the FBI minimum of 12" of penetration. Not terrible for guns that are available in such small, thin, easy to conceal packages.





I'd take a Ruger LCP over a J frame any day of the week.
If I was dead set on getting a J frame, I would look long and hard at the .327 Federal.   It actually gives .357 magnum performance, out of short barrels that .357 mag can't even perform as well out of!



 

Generally speaking,

9mm > 38 Special > .380 ACP

I would recommend the 442 for pocket carry.   That's really where they shine. They're pretty slick to pull out of a pocket, and can be fired out of a coat pocket if necessary.  When I carried the Kel-Tec 380, the mag was getting released inadvertently on occasion.   I would recommend filing down the mag catch a bit if this happens to you.

Pros and cons are everywhere.

On a hammer fired auto you can have the hammer blocked, you can have the slide go out of battery.

On a pistol with a grip safety (1911) it can fail to be disengaged.

A manual safety can accidentally be knocked on, or off.

Autos can fail due to limp wristing, etc, etc, etc.

Revolvers can be fired reliably from a jacket pocket, have no slide to go out of battery, no safety to knock on, no hammer to block (in a S&W Centennial type) etc etc etc.

Be careful of a narrow focus on one single aspect while overlooking all the other ones.

Based on this thread, I don't think a J-frame is an option for me.  I can't afford to ruin that many coats in practice.

I'll stay with my P32.  Which I carry so when asked if I carry a gun, I can answer "One and a half."

This.  I have a Ruger LCP that works great in my shorts, jeans, or slacks, and I never have to worry about dressing to conceal.

I have it on me about 98% of the time I'm not at home or work.

I like the M&P 340PD with Speer .357 short barrel ammo as a pocket gun. More power than a .380 or 9mm. Even worse case if it was grabbed It has a small enough grip that it is not leaving my hand in a struggle and I will eventually get off 5 rounds. In that situation in a semi I would have a 1 shot gun. Even if something as little as a shirt was over the ejection port on a semi it would jam it up. If in a struggle the slide hits your body or another object it will jam. If you are off balance and limp wrist a semi it could jam.

Bottom line is if I know it's going to be a hand to hand fight I want a revolver. If it was a distance shoot and had cover I'd take a semi with extra mags.

Why would you have to shoot a coat?

Because people keep advocating that a strong point of J frames is the ability to shoot while in a pocket, and how are you going to make accurate, CoM hits without practice?





Train like you fight!



 

Ed Zackory.

lots of good points......

 








 

I can conceal a jframe very easily.....bulky?  Mmm ok.  Can carry extra ammo easily on speed strips, reloads are a breeze.......its called practice with what you carry ....then do it again and again and again......you know what happens with lots of practice right?  There are some great rounds out there in 38. I own a 360PD  so I have the ability to fire 38/357.....I load up with either the speer gold dots 125/135 +Ps or the corbon DPX 110+P round.....both nasty rounds and easy to shoot

Bottom line guys.......not a damn thing wrong with jframes......they work and work well, just get your range time in and build muscle memory.......in my opinion carry what is comfy for you.....a lightweight slimline 22 is better in my pocket than a rock.

This.  
















The Kahr PM9 has real sights, 6+1 9mm, and pocket carries fine.  If it is too big, there is a Diamondback DB9 that is slightly smaller/lighter.  No reason to go below 9mm.  
 

Compared to the other option mentioned in this thread, yes.

Here's a J frame next to a small .380



LCP width- .82 inches

S&W doesn't list width on their website but quick googling popped up several different answers for the 442, varying from 1.25" to 1.35".

So the 442 is ~.5" wider than an LCP.


Slide width on 1911s is .9" (excluding safety, just the slide itself), compared to the Glock 19 at 1.18".  Only ~.3" wider there causes people to bitch and moan about how much bulkier a Glock is than a 1911, but a .5" increase isn't bulky at all?  

Sorry, gotta disagree.  J frames are bulky compared to pocket semi autos.

I agree.  Just admit what you are carrying is based on your personal "comfy" factor, not the empirical superiority of the gun's design.