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Link Posted: 10/26/2019 2:39:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Strela:
Pistols without optics - why bother?

Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years.

I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new.

Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics.

Use what you like.
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Literally, the DoD is about 30 years behind the times with pistols.

Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much.

Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 2:52:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SV650Squid:
Literally, the DoD is about 30 years behind the times with pistols.

Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much.

Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot.
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Originally Posted By SV650Squid:
Originally Posted By Strela:
Pistols without optics - why bother?

Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years.

I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new.

Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics.

Use what you like.
Literally, the DoD is about 30 years behind the times with pistols.

Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much.

Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot.
Handguns are for maintaining good order and discipline.
And not a lot else.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 4:00:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2019 4:08:42 PM EST by Fooboy]
Sorry about my opening tone - I meant it be kind of funny but in retrospect can see it came across condescending.

In response to a few comments: A red dot will not make a bad shooter good, but it will make a good shooter better.

If you've tried it and don't like it, I encourage you to pick it up and keep trying.

Initially I tried it and I didn't like it. I was a detractor until a few of my buddies that I typically beat in competition got red dots and started to smoke me.

That set me on the path. It's more expensive But it is better as well
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 8:38:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Sorry about my opening tone - I meant it be kind of funny but in retrospect can see it came across condescending.

In response to a few comments: A red dot will not make a bad shooter good, but it will make a good shooter better.

If you've tried it and don't like it, I encourage you to pick it up and keep trying.

Initially I tried it and I didn't like it. I was a detractor until a few of my buddies that I typically beat in competition got red dots and started to smoke me.

That set me on the path. It's more expensive But it is better as well
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With completely green shooters, a red dot allows them to focus less on sight alignment and more on other things.

Put the dot on the target. Pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 7:15:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:

With completely green shooters, a red dot allows them to focus less on sight alignment and more on other things.

Put the dot on the target. Pull the trigger.
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Agree - as long as they don't have a flinch or other fundamental issues. My experience is many shooters do. I have a bag of snap caps in my range bag I'm always busting out for people with flinch or trigger pull issues.

Confirm grip and trigger pull are good, mix
snap caps and live ammo randomly in a mag, and put them on a timer for a single round center mass at 7 yards out of the holster.  It's usually 1 A zone and then low left C and D zone hits galore. Hit a snap cap and viola - they are anticipating recoil, dipping the gun, jerking the trigger, etc.

After 2-3 mags they start to get it and are shooting very small groups.  I did this with 2 guys yesterday, actually.  One guy started with a teacup grip and was all over the place - ended up shooting a 2 inch shoot dead center.

If you don't have the fundamentals (grip, presentation, sight picture, trigger pull) the dot isn't gonna help.

If you do ... it's magic. Another shooter was pretty squared away and we were shooting a multi position barricade drill on steel at about 20 yards (included low ports where you had to go prone or get very low).

He cut his time in half (-30 seconds quicker) going from irons to RMR and misses dropped to almost 0.

To repeat myself: it won't make a bad shooter good but it will make a good shooter better.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 9:49:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:00:47 AM EST
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it.

Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot.

I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:15:08 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it.

Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot.

I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol.
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If you have to search for it from the holster then your presentation needs some work. If it's slower shot to shot then you recoil management needs some work.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:21:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:26:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it.

Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot.

I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol.
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This is because you need to work on your index.  It's bad.  I'm not putting you down, but that's one thing a dot teaches you.  With iron sights, you can cheat your sight alignment up, which is slower, and not doing you any favors.

Dry fire is important.  It's importanter with a dot.  It doesn't take MORE time in dry fire to get a dot gun figured out, it's just more important.  This is a near direct quote from Hwansik Kim on Ben Stoeger's podcast, Hwansik is a top 5 type dude in Carry Optics and Ben is a IPSC Production World Champion (and USPSA champ like 1234512431234 times).
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:33:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:

Searching for the dot and not finding the dot during presentation are both signs that your natural point of aim hasn't been established.

NPOA is easier to "cheat" with irons. But if the sights aren't coming back to NPOA with irons, even with subconscious correction, the then your aren't shooting consistently.

When I dry fire, it takes a few reps to switch NPOA and acquire the dot when I swap between Glocks and P320s, but I also find I have the same issue with irons.

The first gun I ever shot with a Dot was a P226X5 with a frame mounted optic. Couldn't see it and I thought it was dumb. Fast forward a couple years I bit the bullet, built a Glock with an RMR and did tons of draws, now I'm in love with the concept because I'm drawing and acquiring my sights consistently.

Using an RDS with backup sights can help in the learning curve. I started by acquiring my irons, built my NPOA, now I have no issue picking up the dot while ignoring the BUIS altogether.
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+1. Well stated.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 10:35:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it.

Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot.

I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol.
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Buy a brownells slide.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:07:00 AM EST
When my hand gun skills are more proficient I might consider it. I'm also in the boat of writing on the tech to improve first. I do like shooting with a red dot it's amazingly easy. I just need to improve with irons and other things first.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:25:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Nanashi:
When my hand gun skills are more proficient I might consider it. I'm also in the boat of writing on the tech to improve first. I do like shooting with a red dot it's amazingly easy. I just need to improve with irons and other things first.
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A great way to improve with irons?

Shoot with a dot.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:26:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2019 11:26:27 AM EST by TCBA_Joe]
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 2:11:15 PM EST
Never tried it, honestly. I'm sure it's really cool and seems to be the way things are going. However, theres a few problems right now that prevent me from getting into it:

1. Expense. Take a $500-600 pistol, slap some night sights on it and you're ready to go. If you want to add an optic, you'll need a MOS (or comparable) pistol or slide milling, and the optic itself. Turns a $600-700 setup into a $900-1100 setup if it didnt come cut from the factory. And factory cuts/systems always seem to be less optimal than a custom job. Oh, don't forget a set of supressor height sights.

2. Reliability. Iron sights are always always there. The MRO has plenty of issues and other similar reflex sights just aren't up to the job imo. Just fine for competition, but not okay for defensive use. Battery life also becomes an issue. When I pick up my rifle with a T2, I know it's going to be on and ready as long as I changed the battery once in the last two years.

3. Sight picture. If I wake up at 3:30am to grab a pistol, I'm half asleep. I dont want to be worried about finding the dot and not know which way to turn the muzzle to find it. With a set of night sights, I know based on which sight is moving and can correct it in less than a second. An RDS pistol isn't like a RDS rifle where your cheekweld guides the sight picture everytime.

I think it's an awesome idea and will be the future. Once a product comes out with the RMR form factor and Aimpoint battery life/reliability, I'm all game. Until then, it's just not worth the expense for me.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 2:31:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2019 2:40:00 PM EST by Jack19]
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Target focus.
Better accuracy across the board.
Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance.

Im converting people left and right.

When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there.

If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet.
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Murphy's law.

On occasion,  I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic.

Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see irons I'll use them.

When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking....

Then again, I'm old fashioned, I'll still carry a SW 66 4" once in a while.  
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 2:34:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Jack19:

Murphy's law.

On occasion,  I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic.

Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see iron's I'll use them.

When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking....
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So buy a MRDS which isn’t a massive piece of shit and can take a blow.

Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology.

Welcome to the modern world.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 2:36:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2019 2:46:24 PM EST by Jack19]
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
So buy a MRDS which isn’t a massive piece of shit and can take a blow.

Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology.

Welcome to the modern world.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Jack19:

Murphy's law.

On occasion,  I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic.

Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see iron's I'll use them.

When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking....
So buy a MRDS which isn’t a massive piece of shit and can take a blow.

Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology.

Welcome to the modern world.
I'll do that.  Thanks.

ETA: Interesting. https://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-weapon-sights/mini-red-dot-sight-mrds

Doesn't seem to be a way for the guy in the pics to use irons.  Not that I don't take your point.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 4:19:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Jack19:

Doesn't seem to be a way for the guy in the pics to use irons.  Not that I don't take your point.
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Because it's in a dovetailed mount
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 12:41:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 12:46:30 AM EST by DDEL]
My RMR is interesting/enjoyable to shoot and I like being able to focus on the target. It has also helped me shoot my iron sight only carry gun better (forced a more consistent presentation)

But the exposed emitter means a no go me for carry. A single big drop of rain will render the sight useless if it splatters onto the emitter.

And the entire “ that’s what people said about red dots on rifles...you’re a Fudd if you’re not on board”
Is bullshit. You can do a handstand and mount your rifle and the dot will be there, the pistoldoesn't  work the same way and it takes tons of CORRECT training to get back to your iron sight speed. A red dot on a rifle makes anyone faster right from the first shot and provides instant success for first time shooter. Hand a non shooter a rds pistol and watch them try to find the dot for amusement.

I think the current sights are low tech. Imagine a fin the size front sight but longer with a daylight bright red dot. The Battery and all electrons sits in a MOS plate Just a red dot on a bump with all the parallax free advantages. Now we are f’n talking. Hell even if it was 3x the size of a front sight it would be awesome. But I don’t need a projection TV sitting on my carry pistol.

And don’t even get me started about all these suppressor height sights and co witnessing obsessions.  That’s more rifle bullshit carrying over. You should not need to reference your sight to shoot a red dot, that is just a handicapped fix for poor grip/presentation.

And speaking of rifle carry over while I’m babbling on too much caffeine, I’m going to call this “Roland Disease”...too many thing being chosen and hung on pistols just because it’s trendy but doesn’t mean squat during a typical civilian shooting situation
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 5:20:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 5:38:25 AM EST by Fooboy]
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Originally Posted By DDEL:
My RMR is interesting/enjoyable to shoot and I like being able to focus on the target. It has also helped me shoot my iron sight only carry gun better (forced a more consistent presentation)

But the exposed emitter means a no go me for carry. A single big drop of rain will render the sight useless if it splatters onto the emitter.

And the entire " that's what people said about red dots on rifles...you're a Fudd if you're not on board"
Is bullshit. You can do a handstand and mount your rifle and the dot will be there, the pistoldoesn't  work the same way and it takes tons of CORRECT training to get back to your iron sight speed. A red dot on a rifle makes anyone faster right from the first shot and provides instant success for first time shooter. Hand a non shooter a rds pistol and watch them try to find the dot for amusement.

I think the current sights are low tech. Imagine a fin the size front sight but longer with a daylight bright red dot. The Battery and all electrons sits in a MOS plate Just a red dot on a bump with all the parallax free advantages.

Now we are f'n talking. Hell even if it was 3x the size of a front sight it would be awesome. But I don't need a projection TV sitting on my carry pistol.

And don't even get me started about all these suppressor height sights and co witnessing obsessions.  That's more rifle bullshit carrying over. You should not need to reference your sight to shoot a red dot, that is just a handicapped fix for poor grip/presentation.

And speaking of rifle carry over while I'm babbling on too much caffeine, I'm going to call this "Roland Disease"...too many thing being chosen and hung on pistols just because it's trendy but doesn't mean squat during a typical civilian shooting situation
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@DDEL

Another myth.

MRDS Moisture Concerns


I've tried to wet my RMR with water dribbling from a water bottle with a squirt top and couldn't get the dot to disappear. I'm sure it's possible - but I'll take a huge increase in capability for my typical / most common shooting conditions and manage through the low risk items.

For example - just because Its possible I get mud, snow, dirt stuck in the notch of my rear iron sight (which it can) doesn't I'm better off without it.  Or - what If I snag my irons on clothing?  These are low risk trade offs for the clear benefit of having irons.

The concern with water and - at least the RMR - is the same.

Also, per video above - If you get water which impedes the dot, you have back up irons and water is gone after first shot. See above video.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 8:15:10 AM EST
my Trijicon RMR constant on sight has a hole that I think is so you can blow through to clear out any water on the emitter...

cost of the milling was $75 + shipping

pick up an RMR'd pistol (I have a TLR-1 on it) without a light, and compare the sight picture in the dark to one with a tritium night sight 3 dot system
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 8:30:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Jack19:

Murphy's law.
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Yea... about that.

Link Posted: 10/28/2019 8:38:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:02:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:02:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:

Also:
Thank god this guy had his back up MRDS for when his irons failed.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/241349/C2FA8945-5693-4DE0-BE31-615802CF7B77_jpeg-1140340.JPG
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Backup MRDS are essential.

Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:11:52 AM EST
BMRDS?
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:19:17 AM EST
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control.  $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc.  So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now?  Answer was no.

I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:23:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 9:23:44 AM EST by DAVE_M]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigern314:
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control.  $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc.  So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now?  Answer was no.

I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though.
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Originally Posted By bigern314:
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control.  $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc.  So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now?  Answer was no.

I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though.
You can get a P10C for $350 and send it off to be milled for $150-200. That is less than the cost of the Optics Ready pistol you're looking at. I've also seen RMR's on sale for as low as $269. That puts you around $850 total for a modern gun with a red dot.

Most steel framed hammer guns are in that price range. Rather than buying a new pistol, why not have an existing pistol milled for an optic?

Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
BMRDS?
Seems appropriate.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 9:49:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 4:24:57 PM EST by Fooboy]
I actually didn't realize iron sights broke that often.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 11:18:10 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DAVE_M:

You can get a P10C for $350 and send it off to be milled for $150-200. That is less than the cost of the Optics Ready pistol you're looking at. I've also seen RMR's on sale for as low as $269. That puts you around $850 total for a modern gun with a red dot.

Most steel framed hammer guns are in that price range. Rather than buying a new pistol, why not have an existing pistol milled for an optic?

Seems appropriate.
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Well a $350 P10C is going to be an internet buy so add on $50+ for shipping and transfer.  Then with $150-200 for milling and I'm pretty much where I'm at buying a new one locally premilled.   And I don't want to put a RD on my current guns right now.  So I'll just wait and when I guy a pistol next year see what is out there.

Maybe RD costs will come down a bit by then.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 11:18:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
I actually didn't realize sights broke that often.
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Glock perfection.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 12:07:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bigern314:

Glock perfection.
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HURR HURR GLOCK PERFECTION

Like the M&P I posted above?

How bout a VP9?



Maybe a 1911?



A PX4 for your enjoyment...



I can post more if you want...
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 12:10:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bigern314:

Well a $350 P10C is going to be an internet buy so add on $50+ for shipping and transfer.  Then with $150-200 for milling and I'm pretty much where I'm at buying a new one locally premilled.   And I don't want to put a RD on my current guns right now.  So I'll just wait and when I guy a pistol next year see what is out there.

Maybe RD costs will come down a bit by then.
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$50 for shipping and transfer... lol

Most places offer free shipping and local transfers here are $15, so I feel sorry for you in your locale.

If you have zero experience with RDS and can only offer up that you don't want to spend the money to invest in a pistol that is RDS compatible, you might be in the wrong thread.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 12:38:47 PM EST
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Yep, you best inundate the thread with pics of non glocks screwing up.   Or just realize it was a quick throw away joke.   How triggered you are is up to you Trigger.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 12:54:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:

$50 for shipping and transfer... lol

Most places offer free shipping and local transfers here are $15, so I feel sorry for you in your locale.

If you have zero experience with RDS and can only offer up that you don't want to spend the money to invest in a pistol that is RDS compatible, you might be in the wrong thread.
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I just did offer up that its not the time for me to be spending on a new pistol with an expensive optics system at the moment.   We are heading into the most expensive time of the year for me with Christmas and taxes.  So YES I do not want to spend the money now on a new pistol but I do plan on getting a RD equipped handgun next year sometime so I do like to check out threads and see what people say about the options.

Most FFL I'm familiar with are 25 bucks for a transfer, a few are 35.  And I was just speculating that any gun I order on the internet is going to cost me a little on shipping so I figured roughly 50-ish on shipping and FFL wasn't out of the question making that $350 P-10C not must more cost effective than the optics ready version I was checking on this weekend.  I called about 15 dealers this weekend and only one could get them from a distributor for 570 something total with tax.  Finally Mike Gun's told me their distributor had 23 in stock and I had to do some figuring and decided to hold off until after the holidays since a new carry pistol requires a lot more spending than just on the pistol.

In any event the total cost going either way is pretty comparable and I'll look into it next year.  I'd rather just get one pre cut and go from there.  Maybe some of the $250 optics, I think the Viper vortex was what I was looking at, will drop down a bit with more competition over the next several months.

So to summarize I agree with the title of the thread based on what I've read, and hope to enjoy a new weapon with improved optics in the next several months.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:07:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bigern314:

Yep, you best inundate the thread with pics of non glocks screwing up.   Or just realize it was a quick throw away joke.   How triggered you are is up to you Trigger.
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Triggered? No.

Just pointing out that silly drive by comments adding to the idiocy in this thread are unnecessary.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:07:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 4:09:48 PM EST by brickeyee]
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
I actually didn't realize sights broke that often.
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Electronics riding on a gun is like being strapped to the side of a hammer.

Every blow produces thousands of gs of impact force on the thing.

It took a lot of tries to develop electronics to ride in artillery shells.

The acceleration up the barrel is the first problem.
The triggers that can be set to penetrate N layers of a buildings floors are even worse.

When testing things we used to pack them in brown sugar, then bake to hard.
It worked pretty well, and you could always soak it in warm water to free it up.
For the most part crystal oscillators cannot be used.
The crystal cannot vibrate under the g loading.

During firing or as the projectile spins in flight.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:15:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@DDEL

Another myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tV_TafhDrs

I've tried to wet my RMR with water dribbling from a water bottle with a squirt top and couldn't get the dot to disappear. I'm sure it's possible - but I'll take a huge increase in capability for my typical / most common shooting conditions and manage through the low risk items.

For example - just because Its possible I get mud, snow, dirt stuck in the notch of my rear iron sight (which it can) doesn't I'm better off without it.  Or - what If I snag my irons on clothing?  These are low risk trade offs for the clear benefit of having irons.

The concern with water and - at least the RMR - is the same.

Also, per video above - If you get water which impedes the dot, you have back up irons and water is gone after first shot. See above video.
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Sorry but that video is passing on the bad info. I've had a rmr become completely unusable because of  light rain. Took maybe 15 minutes before I had to take it off the gun.

That being said, I spent an entire hunting season with one on my shockwave. I was sleeping in the teens, fell in a river, rained on, snowed on and never had an issue... Until I did. Fortunately it was at the range and not while aiming at a bear.

Instead of just being for something because of the actual benefits I wish Aaron would spearhead a better design instead of being condescending and dismissive.

To be fair I've had peep sights become unusable in freezing rain too.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:17:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:26:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By brickeyee:

Electronics riding on a gun is like being strapped to the side of a hammer.

Every blow produces thousands of gs of impact force on the thing.

It took a lot of tries to develop electronics to ride in artillery shells.

The acceleration up the barrel is the first problem.
The triggers that can be set to penetrate N layers of a buildings floors are even worse.

When testing things we used to pack them in brown sugar, then bake to hard.
It worked pretty well, and you could always soak it in warm water to free it up.
For the most part crystal oscillators cannot be used.
The crystal cannot vibrate under the g loading.

During firing or as the projectile spins in flight.
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@brickeyee

iron sights.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:41:13 PM EST
So what is the lowest cost quality pistol red dot?
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 4:48:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 6:35:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Buy a brownells slide.
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3 G4's and a G5 kinda preclude that.

im thinking I'm going to take the plunge and get the gen 5 milled.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 6:44:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2019 6:44:37 PM EST by TCBA_Joe]
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 6:58:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:

Sorry but that video is passing on the bad info. I've had a rmr become completely unusable because of  light rain. Took maybe 15 minutes before I had to take it off the gun.

That being said, I spent an entire hunting season with one on my shockwave. I was sleeping in the teens, fell in a river, rained on, snowed on and never had an issue... Until I did. Fortunately it was at the range and not while aiming at a bear.

Instead of just being for something because of the actual benefits I wish Aaron would spearhead a better design instead of being condescending and dismissive.

To be fair I've had peep sights become unusable in freezing rain too.
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Weird... I just shot a match in shitting rain and had zero issues in PCC or CO.

Just like all the other matches or training evolutions I've shot in with a dot.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 6:59:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:

Holosun 507C

If you look around guys have found them under $300
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Second this.

They don't survive the drop test as well as the RMR, but I actually prefer them in several ways.

I wish they would come out with a large format dot which fits a DPP footprint because I'm done with those fucking things.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 7:05:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 7:08:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:

That would be pretty cool.

The new Romeo 1 pro does as well, and it looks promising.
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I plan on trying one... It's not quite as big of a window as the DPP, but looks promising. I might get one for my back up Shadow 2 slide. Primary will be an SRO going forward.
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