Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/18/2012 1:41:44 PM EST
I have not seen it mentioned, so here it goes. Today I noticed that a Maryland State Trooper was carrying a Glock on his gun belt. Apparently, the PX4 in service of Maryland State Police in no more. The transition got rolling this past June according to the following article.

Maryland State Police switch from Berettas to Glocks
Change comes after problems with guns

BALTIMORE —
The Maryland State Police is in the midst of ending a long-term agreement with a Maryland-based gun manufacturer.

I-TEAM: TROOPERS CONCERNED ABOUT GUN RELIABILITY
The 11 News I-Team has uncovered a concern of Maryland state troopers about the reliability of the guns they carry.

State Police said they noticed problems with the .40-caliber Berettas during training, including the failure of the gun's magazine to fall free when a trooper needed to reload and that bullets would unexpectedly fall out of the magazine.

The transition to the .40-caliber Glock has already begun, I-Team lead investigative reporter Jayne Miller said. The total cost of the change is $666,000.

The Berettas are being returned to the agency's vendor for credit with the provision that they not be resold in Maryland.



Read more: http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/Maryland-State-Police-switch-from-Berettas-to-Glocks/-/9379376/14743582/-/m1j154z/-/index.html#ixzz29h0xfE58
Link Posted: 10/18/2012 2:14:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Surfgun:
I have not seen it mentioned, so here it goes. Today I noticed that a Maryland State Trooper was carrying a Glock on his gun belt. Apparently, the PX4 in service of Maryland State Police in no more. The transition got rolling this past June according to the following article.

Maryland State Police switch from Berettas to Glocks
Change comes after problems with guns

BALTIMORE —
The Maryland State Police is in the midst of ending a long-term agreement with a Maryland-based gun manufacturer.

I-TEAM: TROOPERS CONCERNED ABOUT GUN RELIABILITY
The 11 News I-Team has uncovered a concern of Maryland state troopers about the reliability of the guns they carry.

State Police said they noticed problems with the .40-caliber Berettas during training, including the failure of the gun's magazine to fall free when a trooper needed to reload and that bullets would unexpectedly fall out of the magazine.

The transition to the .40-caliber Glock has already begun, I-Team lead investigative reporter Jayne Miller said. The total cost of the change is $666,000.

The Berettas are being returned to the agency's vendor for credit with the provision that they not be resold in Maryland.



Read more: http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/Maryland-State-Police-switch-from-Berettas-to-Glocks/-/9379376/14743582/-/m1j154z/-/index.html#ixzz29h0xfE58
Kind of cool that they let officers up there carry hand grenades.



Link Posted: 10/18/2012 2:39:30 PM EST
They made a wise choice.
Link Posted: 10/18/2012 2:56:04 PM EST
The magazine issue has been known for awhile with Beretta magazines, especially those with the plastic (metal reinforced) baseplate.

Have not heard too much bad about the 9x19 version, but I have heard about issues with the .40 S&W version.

Did not help Beretta USA when they blamed the troopers and their training for a few of the reliability issues.
Link Posted: 10/19/2012 8:09:13 AM EST
Since Maryland Department of Corrections and Natural Resources Police went with the M&P, I was kinda surprised that MSP went with the Glock.
Link Posted: 10/19/2012 8:19:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By BerlinVet:
They made a wise choice.


This
Link Posted: 10/19/2012 4:03:32 PM EST
Cool more trade in guns to buy.
Link Posted: 10/19/2012 5:45:54 PM EST
Not surprised, Beretta doesn't care about the LE market anymore.
Link Posted: 10/19/2012 5:59:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2012 7:22:22 PM EST
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.
Link Posted: 10/20/2012 7:50:05 PM EST
Why would you make a comment like that? Did you shoot yourself in the leg with a Glock or are you being a sarcastic because you don't like Glocks?
Link Posted: 10/20/2012 7:54:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.


No, it has to do with the fact that the Berretas are a POS.

Glock was most likely the cheapest for them to transition to. It is no secret that glock will bend over backwards to win a contract.

Link Posted: 10/20/2012 8:18:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.


No, it has to do with the fact that the Berretas are a POS.

Glock was most likely the cheapest for them to transition to. It is no secret that glock will bend over backwards to win a contract.



In some places the Beretta dealers are persona non grata because they just don't give a shit about their customers.
Link Posted: 10/21/2012 8:14:30 PM EST
Oh well, my Beretta 92A1 runs perfectly . Not buying a PX4 seems like a wise move now.
Link Posted: 10/23/2012 9:12:14 AM EST
My department just finished transitioning from the .40 PX4 to the Gen4 Glock 22. Same reasons as the article stated.
Link Posted: 10/23/2012 4:41:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By JonDoe297:
My department just finished transitioning from the .40 PX4 to the Gen4 Glock 22. Same reasons as the article stated.

It is disappointing that Beretta went cheap with the magazine basepads and will not ream the .40 S&W polymer framed Px4's unless you complain. One wonders if they just chambered it in .40 S&W just to throw a bone to American LE?
Link Posted: 10/23/2012 4:50:51 PM EST
I must be lucky with my .40 PX4. I think I've had maybe one stovepipe out of the 1000 or so rounds I've put through it and I can't think of a time that a magazine failed to drop free.
Link Posted: 10/23/2012 5:34:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Surfgun:
Since Maryland Department of Corrections and Natural Resources Police went with the M&P, I was kinda surprised that MSP went with the Glock.


If their like our State Police they wouldnt be caught dead carrying the same as DNR and DOC just because.

OUr DNR and DOC carry G21 SF the Regional Jail Authority have M&P

and the WVSP

S&W 4566.

One of less than 5 major PDs carrying Third Gen S&W.
Link Posted: 10/23/2012 5:38:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2012 2:32:54 AM EST
CLP on the magazine doesn't require much effort. Ironically my personal last choice for a polymer frame pistol is a glock. This decision means a combination of jack and shit to me.
Link Posted: 10/26/2012 6:29:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.


Someone can just as easily shoot themself in the leg with the garbage PX. Glock is in service with 70% of law enforcement agencies for a reason. Hell even LAPD went away from the Beretta to the Glock.
Link Posted: 10/27/2012 5:24:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Yep, they carry those old, obselete sa/da single-stack beasties. Somebody in the higher-echelon of the WVSP has their head planted WAAAY up their frikkin' ass!

The 3rd Gen S&W Steel guns are built tough and you can beat people with it, unlike a Grock. That said, they are a bit out of date.
Link Posted: 10/27/2012 5:51:58 AM EST
This is shocking news! Who could ever predict that an LE agency would deem the Storm unreliable. Unpossible, I tell ya, unpossible.
Link Posted: 10/29/2012 3:01:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.


I've been dropping Glock mags on concrete for 16 freakin years and never had a magazine related problem.

Link Posted: 10/29/2012 3:10:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
Originally Posted By Surfgun:
Since Maryland Department of Corrections and Natural Resources Police went with the M&P, I was kinda surprised that MSP went with the Glock.


If their like our State Police they wouldnt be caught dead carrying the same as DNR and DOC just because.

OUr DNR and DOC carry G21 SF the Regional Jail Authority have M&P

and the WVSP

S&W 4566.

One of less than 5 major PDs carrying Third Gen S&W.


Nothing wrong with that buddy. Some of the best guns out there, still.
Link Posted: 10/29/2012 3:48:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Yep, they carry those old, obselete sa/da single-stack beasties. Somebody in the higher-echelon of the WVSP has their head planted WAAAY up their frikkin' ass!

The 3rd Gen S&W Steel guns are built tough and you can beat people with it, unlike a Grock. That said, they are a bit out of date.


Lemme smack you in the head with my G23 and you tell me if it hurts.
Link Posted: 10/30/2012 4:27:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By FredMan:
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Yep, they carry those old, obselete sa/da single-stack beasties. Somebody in the higher-echelon of the WVSP has their head planted WAAAY up their frikkin' ass!

The 3rd Gen S&W Steel guns are built tough and you can beat people with it, unlike a Grock. That said, they are a bit out of date.

Lemme smack you in the head with my G23 and you tell me if it hurts.

It that before, or after the slide comes off the four rails and clanks on the ground?
Link Posted: 10/30/2012 4:28:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR-Joe:
Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
I would guess this has more to do with perception (all the cool kids carry Glocks) than actual performance of the guns. Yes, if you repeatedly drop a magazine onto concrete, it will break and spill rounds everywhere. Good luck with those Glocks, try to not shoot yourself in the leg.

I've been dropping Glock mags on concrete for 16 freakin years and never had a magazine related problem.

That is because of the way Glock designed how the floorplate attaches to the magazine body.
Link Posted: 10/31/2012 10:53:59 PM EST
Hmm, haven't had a problem with my PX4 .40 so far.
Link Posted: 10/31/2012 11:52:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By FredMan:
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Yep, they carry those old, obselete sa/da single-stack beasties. Somebody in the higher-echelon of the WVSP has their head planted WAAAY up their frikkin' ass!

The 3rd Gen S&W Steel guns are built tough and you can beat people with it, unlike a Grock. That said, they are a bit out of date.

Lemme smack you in the head with my G23 and you tell me if it hurts.

It that before, or after the slide comes off the four rails and clanks on the ground?




Sorry i know this is tech, but i can't help it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2012 11:53:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2012 10:13:17 AM EST by Papi4baby]
Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
Hmm, haven't had a problem with my PX4 .40 so far.


The department near where i work, almost went to the PX4. Didn't last long, they never fully implemented it.

The only other gun i have seem choke more at IDPA besides 1911 was a PX4. That was being shot by a Berreta employee.

Added NEAR to post, since i am not a PO.
Link Posted: 11/1/2012 7:52:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
Hmm, haven't had a problem with my PX4 .40 so far.


The department where i work, almost went to the PX4. Didn't last long, they never fully implemented it.

The only other gun i have seem choke more at IDPA besides 1911 was a PX4. That was being shot by a Berreta employee.


Curious, which caliber PX4 Storm was the employee shooting?
Link Posted: 11/5/2012 6:11:51 PM EST
I was reading some posts on a different website by different police officers and deputies where they were discussing their own problems with the PX4. While most of the problems occurred when the guns reached around the 2K round count they were also having additional malfunctions with newly issued PX4's. From what they said guns that were in the 2K round count area started jamming and having slides fly off the gun during training shoots. They also talked about problems with the base plates of the mags coming off and dumping rounds out in addition to mags failing to eject. One guy, a Beretta armorer for his department, said Beretta refused to believe that the guns were malfunctioning until they started videoing the malfs and showing them. After that Beretta acknowledged there was some defect with the guns so they took them all back, worked on them and sent them back to their police department eachwith a bag of new replacement parts and new mags which were improved to keep base plates from popping off. He said they tried the guns as repaired by Beretta before swapping out the new parts and they seemed to work much better. Then they chose to put the new parts in and the guns were a mess of malfunctions so the old parts were put back in. He didn't have much good to say about the gun and decided he was going to pursue getting permission to carry his 96 and if he couldn't get would carry it as a backup.

One of the other guys said his department had the same problems culminating in the sheriff ordering Sig's the next day to replace the PX4. Being a former LEO myself and reading these kinds of personnel stories about the PX4's problems whether they are occurring with new guns or used guns just really gets to me when I think of officers out there being forced to carry a gun that may get them injured or killed. Obviously there's a problem with these guns that Beretta isn't willing to fully admit yet so, hopefully, either they will fix it or stop pushing them out into buyers hands until they are as dependable as they claim. I know I won't be buying one until then.
Link Posted: 11/7/2012 9:59:02 AM EST
i just got px4 storm for a first handgun
Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:12:19 AM EST

A friend of mine is the police chief in a local retirement community. Their agency went to the PX4 in .40 S&W. No problems reported after three years.

Funny thing is that my buddy continues to carry his old 8040 Cougar as a duty weapon.

Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:14:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By rparrish:
Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
Hmm, haven't had a problem with my PX4 .40 so far.


The department where i work, almost went to the PX4. Didn't last long, they never fully implemented it.

The only other gun i have seem choke more at IDPA besides 1911 was a PX4. That was being shot by a Berreta employee.


Curious, which caliber PX4 Storm was the employee shooting?


I believe it was a 9mm, could had been a .40.
Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:22:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARddiction:
i just got px4 storm for a first handgun
9x19, or .40.

Most of the magazine sticking issues have been with the .40 cal.

The cheap floorplate and barrel locking up happens with both the 9x19 and .40. The MSP exacerbated the magazine issue by not having range mags, so the duty magazines cracked/lost their floorplates.

Keep the frame/slide rails oiled, along with the barrel slot and nub on top, and you should be ok. They are accurate pistols.
Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:34:04 AM EST
its the 9x19
hopefully i got a good one the trigger feels great to me i like it
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By ARddiction:
i just got px4 storm for a first handgun
9x19, or .40.

Most of the magazine sticking issues have been with the .40 cal.

The cheap floorplate and barrel locking up happens with both the 9x19 and .40. The MSP exacerbated the magazine issue by not having range mags, so the duty magazines cracked/lost their floorplates.

Keep the frame/slide rails oiled, along with the barrel slot and nub on top, and you should be ok. They are accurate pistols.


Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:41:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By ARddiction:
i just got px4 storm for a first handgun
9x19, or .40.

Most of the magazine sticking issues have been with the .40 cal.

The cheap floorplate and barrel locking up happens with both the 9x19 and .40. The MSP exacerbated the magazine issue by not having range mags, so the duty magazines cracked/lost their floorplates.

Keep the frame/slide rails oiled, along with the barrel slot and nub on top, and you should be ok. They are accurate pistols.


Trust me.

MSP does not shoot that much.

They do their qual with the exact amount of rounds and leave.

If someone fails, they have to have another Trooper go to the barrack pick up another batch of ammo and bring it to the range so he can try again.

So the whole, not having range mags does not justified Beretta having a crappy magazine.


My sig duty mag has been with me since 06 and has yet to fail me, and i dont treat it nicely. I gets drop on concrete, black top all the time i go to the range.

And i got every 3 months.
Link Posted: 11/7/2012 10:53:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Papi4baby:
Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By ARddiction:
i just got px4 storm for a first handgun
9x19, or .40.

Most of the magazine sticking issues have been with the .40 cal.

The cheap floorplate and barrel locking up happens with both the 9x19 and .40. The MSP exacerbated the magazine issue by not having range mags, so the duty magazines cracked/lost their floorplates.

Keep the frame/slide rails oiled, along with the barrel slot and nub on top, and you should be ok. They are accurate pistols.


Trust me.

MSP does not shoot that much.

They do their qual with the exact amount of rounds and leave.

If someone fails, they have to have another Trooper go to the barrack pick up another batch of ammo and bring it to the range so he can try again.

So the whole, not having range mags does not justified Beretta having a crappy magazine.

My sig duty mag has been with me since 06 and has yet to fail me, and i dont treat it nicely. I gets drop on concrete, black top all the time i go to the range.

And i got every 3 months.

I have Mec-Gar 15, 17, and 20 round Beretta 92 magazines for years and aside from replacing the magazine springs in a couple of them, they have never failed me.

Then again, I put base pads on the 15/17 rounders and a rubber pad on the 20 rounders.

Looks like the plastic/metal insert floorplates just do not get the job done, but at least they are cheap.
Link Posted: 11/12/2012 5:44:07 AM EST
In January 2013 my agency, with approximately 200 sworn officers, will transition for general issue from the Beretta PX4 type D (40 S&W) to the Glock G22 gen4.

In 1993, the year of my hiring, I was issued a 96D. During the next 10 years that I carried this handgun I developed confidence that if I did my part this weapon would serve me well. My 96D was mechanically reliable and I shot it with good accuracy. Over the years I did observe, or learn of, a few officers that experienced broken "wings" on their locking blocks and broken trigger springs. I believe that proper maintenance and lubrication (run wet) kept me from having these issues. I also used the Wolff "plunger" trigger spring unit, which I think Beretta should have adapted as standard for this type. I purchased my 96D when the department issued a new handgun.

My next issued handgun was the 96D Vertec. I never experienced malfunctions with this Vertec, but I never "bonded" with it, likely because I didn't care for the grip angle and it didn't seem as well made as my 96D. I did like the addition of the light rail. I replaced the plastic guide rod with a steel rod, and the half plastic trigger with a steel one so that a Wolff trigger spring unit could be used. The Vertec lasted approximately 4 years when the department moved to the PX4. I declined to purchase the Vertec even at a reasonable price.

This brings me to the PX4 type D. Over the last 5 years my PX4 has been 100% reliable. I like the feel of the PX4 in the hand, but for some reason it has been difficult for me to shoot as accurately on a consistent basis as I do with other handguns. My agency's SWAT was never issued the PX4. They use the 90-Two (40 S&W). I will not be buying the PX4 if given the option.

My agency primarily T&Eed the Glock and M&P handguns in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. A distributor from Kansas brought the FN FNS for additional evaluation. The Glock G22 gen4 was ultimately selected.

Overall I would say that my experience with Beretta handguns as duty weapons was generally positive. It is a shame that Beretta no longer seems interested in competing in the American LE market. I think that Beretta will upscale the Nano action to a full sized handgun that could be competitive.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/17/2012 11:27:06 AM EST
I've noticed that the gun world in general usually gets an idea or myth going and then it spreads like fact for years and years. People with no experience with that particular gun end up repeating it. Cops are even worse when doing it. If you have even the most minimal knowledge I'm sure you have heard mountains of false information at the range. Guys saying that 92FS slides are always flying off and hitting guys in the face, etc.

Also, I've seen many officers over the years at ranges and have never been that impressed that with their shooting or skill, they seem average at best. So there are many other civilians I would trust over a group of police officers when it comes to gun tech.

I don't own a PX4 and will never buy one simply because it doesn't fit my hand that well, so I have no dog in this fight either way. But just because a LE agency chose one gun over another should have no influence on your perception about how that gun operates. They way cops get an idea in their mind and it spreads around the agency, the budget, the gun's sales rep, these all go into it.

Personally, I like the idea of LE carrying DAO guns. Since they are the cops, any extra risk should be on them and safety should always error on the side of the civilian population. If as a police officer you aren't comfortable with that, then you don't have what it takes to be a cop. But that's a different argument.
Link Posted: 11/18/2012 1:31:44 PM EST
put 200 rounds through my new px4 and love it

so damn accurate, the trigger feels great....
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:35:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 8:36:37 AM EST by rparrish]
Originally Posted By crakbot:
I've noticed that the gun world in general usually gets an idea or myth going and then it spreads like fact for years and years. People with no experience with that particular gun end up repeating it. Cops are even worse when doing it. If you have even the most minimal knowledge I'm sure you have heard mountains of false information at the range. Guys saying that 92FS slides are always flying off and hitting guys in the face, etc.

Also, I've seen many officers over the years at ranges and have never been that impressed that with their shooting or skill, they seem average at best. So there are many other civilians I would trust over a group of police officers when it comes to gun tech.

I don't own a PX4 and will never buy one simply because it doesn't fit my hand that well, so I have no dog in this fight either way. But just because a LE agency chose one gun over another should have no influence on your perception about how that gun operates. They way cops get an idea in their mind and it spreads around the agency, the budget, the gun's sales rep, these all go into it.

Personally, I like the idea of LE carrying DAO guns. Since they are the cops, any extra risk should be on them and safety should always error on the side of the civilian population. If as a police officer you aren't comfortable with that, then you don't have what it takes to be a cop. But that's a different argument.


It seems that you don't care for cops in general? Like many other things in life, agencies typically get back what they invest in their officers and that certainly includes firearms training. Many agencies do not have the funding these days to provide large quantities of training ammunition to their officers and that truly is a shame. Couple that fact with the reality that some people entering law enforcement have never truly been exposed to firearms and that issue is compounded. How do you rationalize the link between officers carrying DAO guns and the public somehow being safer because of it?

Link Posted: 11/23/2012 12:22:10 PM EST
I have around 700 round through my full-size PX4 with zero issues. I am not an LEO,but am an armed citizen. I have carried it from time to time. It currently resides on my nightstand with a TLR-1 on it and I feel completely confident that it will work when needed. I feel that the quality is impecible,and the mags are some of the smoothest I have used. Abuse of an item does not mean it is a bad product. The mag floorplate may need an upgrade,but lubrication of the pistol is probably key to the proper function and reliability. Glock may have better customer service and support...and I do own several...but I do not feel that they are a better pistol than the Berretta's. I think that cost is a major player in a Government agency deciding on a product. Just my .02.
Top Top