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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:16:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 8:16:04 AM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
This question was inspired by another thread,

I am looking for a nice small pistol I can carry in my pocket if I am just going out quickly or I'm not wearing enough clothes to conceal something bigger. My most important requirement is that it will actually fit in my pant pockets. I keep debating between a kel-tec p11 and a makarov.

I see the makarov as cheaper and more reliable out of the box.

On the otherhand I see the p11 as having a more powerful round that shares commonality with other pistols, a larger capacity, and smaller size.

What do you think? Is the makarov really small enough to fit in a pocket? Does anyone have a picture of them together? I'd like all the input I can get.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:12:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GooberPP:
I've fed everything to my P-11 without a hitch.



I got mine 4 or 5 years ago, so they may have improved the out-of-the-box quality.  Anyway, I consider a KT to be a good bang-for-the-buck value.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:36:00 AM EDT
I carry a P11 daily.  I wouldn't carry a defensive arm that I didn't have complete confidence in.

The thing with KelTecs is you have to take it for what it is.  It's not a Sig, so don't compare it to one.

When I first got mine it would feed FMJ all day long with no problem, but JHPs would give me 2 or 3 FTF malfunctions per 10 rd mag.

I visited the KelTec Owners Group website (www.ktog.org) and learned some fluff & buff tips.  I polished the feed ramp (that was where the nose of the JHP would hang up), then took it to the range.  I put two mags of JHP through it as fast as I could pull the trigger.  100% function.

I have had no problems since my polishing job.

The trigger is DAO, and it can be stiff.  I sent mine to the factory to have another issue checked out and they replaced the spring with a lighter one, unasked and without charge.  Nice of them.  Also, IIRC, there are some tips on the KTOG site related to trigger pull.  I could hit pretty well with mine (scored 98 out of 100 on my CCW range qual) because I practice and am used to the trigger.  Snap caps are a good training aid.  You can't "creep" the trigger back to its break point.  It has to be a firm, continuous squeeze.

If you decide to go with the P11, just keep in mind that it may take a little tweaking to get what you want out of it.  

I trust mine with my life.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:56:23 AM EDT
I carry a Makarov on (just about) a daily basis. It is heavy but I don't really mind. The number one reason I carry the Mak is that I feel confident in being able to draw, shoot and hit where aim and quickly be back on the threat/target. My gun goes bang everytime (this is not a warranty of all Maks-YMMV).
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:43:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TrashHeap:
CZ100



+1



And the Mak is a heck of an accurate little shooter. Love mine and would be my cc





Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:34:46 PM EDT
I hve both and they are both reliable. Due to weight and size I would choose the P11. Of course the Taurus PT-111 should be thrown into the mix as well. My son-in-law has one and it has been a great little gun also.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:35:53 PM EDT
CZ100
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:40:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 6:41:25 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
I've carried the Mak for a while but I've decided to shop for a Glock sub-compact. Prolly a G26.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:48:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Neither are GREAT guns, and IMO, you would be better off with a Glock 26.  Having said that:

The P11 is extremely small and light for a 9mm; you'll hardly know its there.  Plastic frames make for great carry guns, both due to weight and corrosion resistance.  The sights are decent.  The trigger is HORRIBLE and double-action only.  You should be thinking "staple gun", because that's exactly what it's like.  Mags are fine; made by Mec-Gar.

The Makarov, being a big hunk of steel, is at least triple the weight, and larger overall.  It fires a decent but certainly not great round (I recommend Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs in this caliber).  Sights are typically tiny and hard to see, like most Euro guns until recently.  The heel mag release sucks.  Accuracy is quite good if you can manage the sights, thanks to the fixed barrel.  Being the most powerful blow-back caliber, it is snappy and you may get some trigger-guard bite.

Having owned several Maks, I would say that I would probably choose to carry the P11, mostly due to size and weight, UNLESS I could open carry, where the weight and bulk of the Mak would be less of a problem.

-Troy



I pretty much agree with all that..

If I were to carry the P11, I'd get the trigger shoe, since it is a very long pull. the pull weight is up there, but IMHO, it should be for this type of carry gun. The issue w/ me is how long the pull is. Definitely not a comfortable pistol to shoot, but does the job well. I can't think of a single malfunction w/ this pistol, the mags are Mec-Gar, and they are high quality.

HTH
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:54:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
I've carried the Mak for a while but I've decided to shop for a Glock sub-compact. Prolly a G26.



The Glock 26 is WAAAY too thick IMO.  I wish they would re-design the slide and make it thinner somehow.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:54:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

My rule on self defense pistols is if you can't shoot an IPSC match with it then it's not a primary defensive handgun, just an emergency backup to one.



I hope we're not talking about a primary carry gun!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:06:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 3:01:18 PM EDT by raven]
All I know is that my Makarov sucked, but I think I had a lemon.

But unless you modify the slide, a Mak's sights suck.  It uses a meek round.  Relatively small capacity given how big it is for its caliber.  And has that crappy mag release common on old east  European pistols. I guess the low price compensates for its many shortcomings, but you really get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:57:10 PM EDT
KelTecs have mag issues from what I hear also appearence seems to go to shit quickly.  I like my Makarov far better.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:02:24 AM EDT
Having had both, in the great ARFCOM tradition, (and having got rid of the Kel-Tec), I humbly and earnestly refer you to yet another ARFCOM tradition:

Get something else.

Specifically a S&W .38 Airweight.  Light, compact, reliable, and easier to stick in a pocket than either of the above.

The Makarov's great but too heavy and too big, and if you are unfortunate enough to wind up with a P11 like I had, you wouldn't trust it to defend the life of a sickly rat, much less your own.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:09:41 AM EDT
I've fed everything to my P-11 without a hitch.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:01:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 5:03:12 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
This question was inspired by another thread,

I am looking for a nice small pistol I can carry in my pocket if I am just going out quickly or I'm not wearing enough clothes to conceal something bigger. My most important requirement is that it will actually fit in my pant pockets. I keep debating between a kel-tec p11 and a makarov.

I see the makarov as cheaper and more reliable out of the box.

On the otherhand I see the p11 as having a more powerful round that shares commonality with other pistols, a larger capacity, and smaller size.

What do you think? Is the makarov really small enough to fit in a pocket? Does anyone have a picture of them together? I'd like all the input I can get.



The Makarov is roughly the size of a Glock 26, so it can indeed fit in a pocket.

It is an all steel gun, however, meaning it is HEAVY. Between the Kel-Tech and the Makarov, the Makarovs are usually more reliable. The sights and trigger on them leave something to be desired, but though they are heavy they are fairly smooth, whereas the Kel-Tech....Well, we won't go there.  

For a practical pocket gun, I think you are better off looking for a small Smith revolver (like the 442),  or a Glock 26. I carry a G26 in my pocket all the time, and love it.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:11:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 9:42:45 AM EDT by Dolomite]
How many different calibers can you fire through a single Kahr?

IN AN EMERGENCY you can fire 9mmP (9x19) out of a MAK.  

You've got to feed them into the chamber one at a time (because they ain't gonna fit in the mag) - so you're basically looking at a heavy version of the Vietnam-era CIA "Deer Gun":



Better than not having any gun at all wouldn't you say?

And then there are the people that say you should never-ever shoot .380 (9x17) out a 9x18 Mak - well, again, in pinch it will work (and even work through the magazine).

These are great, great guns - I'll go out on a limb and dare to say they're more accurate than most Kahr's.  And if you don't want to splurge on getting some new sights milled in - take some hobby paint and a small paintbrush and put couple of orange or white dots on the front/rear (ghetto-Heinie-Straight-8's I call 'em).

ETA:  I just went back and saw that this was a Mak v. Kel-Tec thread, NOT a Mak v. Kahr thread!  Jeez!  Don't I feel stupid?  Just get a Mak - debate over.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:58:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:42:16 PM EDT
if your going Makarov find a Baikal IJ-70,Pearce grip it .'Don Hume brand' makes a nice IWB holster (bulky for some) as for ammo Cor-Bon makes 9x18 in HP.


if this is a completely useless opinion look into a S&W Model 37 Airwieght .38 caliber carries nice quite concealable a well made wheel gun and a damn good 'Pump Fist' firearm...should'a kept mine.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:02:48 PM EDT
I wouldn't want either. However, if they were my only choice, I'd pick the Mak. I know from first hand that Kel-Tec=crap.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:04:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 5:19:05 PM EDT by zipper]
KHAR
KAHR

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:07:02 PM EDT
I'd go with the Makarov, simply because it's cool. Plus the pistol has some heft to it so after you empty the magazine you can smack the shit out of any remaining baddies.

And, let's face it, despite the com-bloc design shortcomings, the Makorov is just plain sexy.

Definitely buying one when I can!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:07:21 PM EDT
My Maks have never had a FTF or FTE or any stoppages of any kind other then running out of ammo.   The recoil can be a little sharp but the little guns are extremely accurate.

Also they cost $129 a piece.  If you are involved in a shooting or get the weapon confisacted for a time so what.  Go buy another one.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:07:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zipper:
KHAR




Uh, Kahr?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:14:15 PM EDT
I've neither owned nor fired a Mak, but I do have experience with the P-11. My Kel-Tec P-11 and P-32 were both 100% reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.  
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:17:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Amicus:

Originally Posted By zipper:
KHAR




Uh, Kahr?




UMMM YEA that one

No excuses WADA  
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:22:01 PM EDT
My Mak will shoot any ammo I throw at very reliably - and I feed it some real crap. It also seems to be very accurate (from 30 feet or so) no matter what ammo you feed it. The single action pull on it is quite nice for an unmodified pistol.

The sights aren't the easiest to pick up quickly, some sight color helps a little. It's fairly hefty for a pistol of its size as well.

Overall a nice little gun for the $$$, I'll probably pick another one up when the right deal comes along.

My .02
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:22:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:22:58 PM EDT by tz99]
I have both and find shooting the Mak with the Pierce aftermarket grips to be much more pleasant.  
Your break down on them is just about right, P11 wins in weight, capacity and sights, Mak wins reliability

Both are damn near the same size, Mak is thinner while the P11 is shorter and taller.  I'd say neither is a great 'pocket' gun but I've used them both for that.  

I prefer my Mak for extended shooting and the single action after the first shot.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:38:39 PM EDT

My P11 has never been reliable. I tried a box of every off the shelf ammo I could find and it was still a no-go. I sent it back to the factory and they said there was nothing wrong with it.

I still shoot it once in a while and sometimes carry it in a coat pocket. Even if it later malfunctions, the first shot will still go bang. I still haven't found a decent compact 9mm. From what I read they all have issues, except for the Glock, and you can't just put one of those in your pocket safely.

My rule on self defense pistols is if you can't shoot an IPSC match with it then it's not a primary defensive handgun, just an emergency backup to one.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:30:29 AM EDT
I found one of my old reports:

Kel-Tec P-11 9mm Range Report 25 January 2004

Today I fired 220 rounds. There were 26 malfunctions. There were 22 failures to feed, 18 requiring the slide to be racked back and released, while 4 required removing the magazine to clear. There were also two stove pipes and two failures to extract.

I varied the ammo throughout the test, firing 10 rounds of one type, then switching to another brand, and so on. The P-11 now has 320 total rounds fired.


50 American Eagle 124gr FMJ – 2 failures to feed.

50 American Eagle 147gr FMJ Flat Point – 8 failures to feed. Two nose dives required removal of the magazine to clear.

20 Federal 135gr Hydra Shock – 7 failures to feed. Two nose dives required removal of the magazine to clear.

50 Remington UMC 115gr FMJ – no malfunctions of any kind

50 Wolf 115gr FMJ – 5 failures to feed. 2 stovepipes. 2 failures to extract, case sticking half-way out of the chamber.


The Kel-Tec liked the Remington UMC, but hated the Wolf and Federal HS. When the Wolf was raising its ugly head I put in the UMC back to back with it, and it still functioned flawlessly.

I am still not sure if this is a clunker or not. The UMC ammo saved the verdict today.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I later sent the pistol back to Kel-Tec and they said nothing was wrong with it
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:13:54 PM EDT
I've always rather felt that the P11 was far too large a pistol to get away with being so damn uncomfortable.  Get the Makarov.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:19:34 PM EDT
Hi there,

I started off trying to carry a Colt Magnum carry. I found it to be a bit bulky and heavy. So I decided
to try a Kel-Tec P40. Not bad, I guess. Pretty reliable, if a bit scary. By scary, I mean that I put the
heaviest springs I could buy in it and still destroyed the brass with non+p loads. Reasonably accurate.
Recoil is uncomfortable, but manageable. The trigger absolutely SUCKS! Then I picked up a Makarov. Heavy, solid, reliable, accurate. Big, shoots a wimpy cartridge, has a sharp recoil. I just recently bought
a Kahr PM9. Heaven. Recoil is not bad at all, even with Corbon hot loads. It's very accurate, very thin, small, lightweight, easy to hide. The trigger pull is not bad at all. There's a cheap version of the MK9
called the BOX version. It should run around $400 retail, I think.

Sam
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:58:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 7:59:35 PM EDT by Srigs]
Two words!

RUST , SUPPORT.  The Makarov will rust and little to no support!  The Parkerizing on the P11 will not rust and life time support for the gun.

You do need to do a Fluff and buff on the Kel-tec handguns but one done it will be 100%.  Plus you can replace the slide with a 40 conversion and then drop in a 357 sig barrel.  So you can have 3 guns in one!

One last good thing is S&W 59xx and 69xx mags work in the P11!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:40:50 AM EDT
Out of the two you mentioned grab the Makarov - I have one and they are great, very well built.  Although I also have another suggestion, Bersa Thunder .380.  

I have one of these also and they are equally reliable (so far).  Its lighter and a bit smaller than the Mak - they run $200 new.  I would wager to say either the Mak or the Bersa will get the job done and will be far more reliable than the KelTec.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Srigs:
The Parkerizing on the P11 will not rust and life time support for the gun.




A Makarov is not any more prone to rust than any other blued gun.  As to the life time support - I would prefer a gun that didnt need sent off.

Compare service records on this board and others and Im quite sure the Makarov is less trouble some, far less.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:36:28 PM EDT
Makarov.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:04:18 PM EDT
My Makarov is the Hi cap model.    The accuracy of it surprises me every time I take it out.  It has a fantastic trigger, that I cleaned up myself.  Makarov.com has simple directions to do this.  I've done it on three different Maks, an E.G, a Bulgie, and my Russ.    All the results were similar, with the E.G. coming out with the sweetest double action pull of ANY DA gun I've had the chance to shoot.  

My Mak is utterly reliable.  I'd take the Mak over MANY other guns.   It  is easy to shoot, and hit what I am aiming at.....in the end that is what counts.
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