Well I figured with a topic like that, this may get alot of views.  But my goal is not to gain notoriety with all you folks, but more to just share.

My dad and I were at the range today and we sometimes have these little contests.  Using our approved (by us) Bin Laden and Sadaam targets we load a certain number of rounds, in this case 15, and shoot at these targets.  Add up the scores and see who wins.  Well, while we did this I was sort of doing my own comparison between the two pistols.



The 1911 is a springfield milspec and the beretta is an M9.  The 1911 is about a year old to me, and the M9 is about 4 months old to me.  They both have about the same round count through them.  With no malfunctions to speak of except for the stovepipe  someone else had while shooting my 1911 and with the m9 I have trouble resting my thumb on the slide stop, sometimes not allowing the slide to lock back.

When we are doing this little contest, I shot one with the 1911 and another with the M9.  Here are the targets.  They are 90 degrees because I snapped the picture wrong.  But these were shot at 50 feet (maximum for this indoor range we were at)

1911

8-1/8"

M9

6-1/4"

Now here's my impressions:
 The M9 is clearly the winner in accuracy.  But keep in mind, I may have a harder time shooting the 1911 due to the higher recoil.  And on that note, that group with the M9 was done in about 1/4 of the time.  Which I think would count for something in the real world.  Further note on that,  I obviously had to reload the 1911, and not the M9.  I might have chosen 10 rounds to  make it more fair, especially if I had one of those 10 round mags.  But the point is moot.  It is obvious the M9 carries more rounds.
  I actually find the M9 more comfortable.  Although the 1911 doesn't suck.  I think I might be better off with a flat mainspring housing.  But I'm not sure.  And I'm sure a beavertail would make it a bit easier to handle, although, I've learned to hold pretty high on the 1911.  My right thumb rests on  the underside of the safety.  Maybe some rest it on top of it.  

Here's my thinking about all this: to me, If someone stood long enough to let me shoot them with that many rounds, I'm sure both of these pistols would do the trick.  I undersand the .45 has more power, I just don't know if it makes that big of a difference.  And on top of that, when I shoot out at my outdoor range, I'm alot quicker on target with the M9.  I'm not trying to put the old workhorse down, but I am trying to make a case that I really don't think the M9 is as bad as some make it out to be.  If you can be twice as fast and lets just say it's half as powerful, wouldn't it be a wash.  Meaning I think both of these pistols are very nice.  They both have their pros and cons.  Although I think I have to look harder to find the cons on the M9.  At least for me personally.  But I'm not trying to say the 1911 isn't good either.  I actually really like it.  But it is a little harder and slower for me to shoot to a somewhat equal level.  I probably need to do some tweaking / customizing to make it more suited to me, yet sometimes it's hard to figure out what, out of the tons of mods you could do, would be beneficial.  At present they both have about the same value, as far as how much I spent on them.  Because I got an aftermarket rear sight on the 1911 and those pachmyr grips.  Which brings the milspec about up to the same price tag as the M9.  

I know I'll get flamed for this post, but I thought I'd share anyways.  I think if I could #1 maybe get some tips from the 1911 guys to help me tweak my shooting or my 1911  to help me get better and #2 shed some light to some of the anti M9 ers that there are maybe some definite pros to the M9, and don't give me this crap that the 1911 is  deadly and the M9 is just a pussy weapon, because plenty of GI's are using the M9 successfully as we speak, and have in the past.  

So there you go.  Thanks in advance for the helpful responses.  And for those who actually take the time to read all this.
 

Oh Boy! Here We go! This should be fun!

I prefer the .45

At least it wasnt a Glock versus a 1911.... sheesh I get sick of that

Alright, so you shot a 6" group at 50 feet? Were you holding the gun sideways?

He has basically, with that one simple 'test' demonstrated why (besides ammo availability) the .mil went to a high-cap 9mm for GENERAL ISSUE....

9mm is much easier to shoot.  period.

You might wanna check out Browning Hi Power

Quoted: 9mm is much easier to shoot.  period. You might wanna check out Browning Hi Power

That has NOT been my experience.

I have found that I am nearly as accurate with my 9mm as I am with my .45 ACP. The 1911 I have will shoot small ragged holes. The glock 17 will shoot nice little clusters, but no ragged holes.

As far as recoil goes, the 9mm and the 45 feel about the same to me.

Quoted: Alright, so you shot a 6" group at 50 feet? Were you holding the gun sideways?

He demonstrated a perfectly valid idea.  The M9 is an easier platform to shoot for beginners.  Especially in a military that doesn't emphasize handgun technique.

My $100 on the Beretta for reliability out of the box.

Quoted: This will get you started...pay attention...these guys are among the best of the best. www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/4987/Pistol/AMUmanual/Amu-pmtg.htm

The USMC manual is more gooder, IMO.

I own both a SA 1911A1 and the M9 too. I find your results to be consistent with my range experience with them.

If I had a choice however, I would not pick either one but my CZ75b due to the fact that I shoot it slightly better than my M9 and it is more ergonomic. However, I would still pick my G17 over all of them as I shoot it quite well, it is very durable, and scary reliable.

I love my M9.

Do miss the SA action sometimes from my USP though.

I like the 1911 better. YMMV

I own about 4 (if I remeber correctly) 1911s at the moment. I also own a 92FS (you can see pics here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=15&t=28438  ).

My experience is that with proper form, I can shoot either as well as the other. My Springfield Milspec will shoot jagged holes all day long. My Beretta will do the same. When it comes to SHTF, though, I am likely to grab either based on the threat. That hi-cap mag is important sometimes (especially when you ahve some 20 or so). Other times, when I am carrying a heavy rifle load 12+ mags), the low capacity 1911 will do just fine.

Work on your form. Soon enough you will be able to make about any pistol make jagged holes. Its fun to pick up a pistol you have never shot before and outshoot the owner.

Remember: focus on that front sight post, proper position and grip, and trigger squeeze.

Once you got it down, combat accuracy is easy.

What exactly does this prove?

Two guys who are not great shooters in the first place shot better during one range trip with a Beretta?



Did I miss something?

Sounds like someone's getting defensive.

The .45 got seven in the 10, the 9mm only got 6 (5?). I guess this proves the .45 is a more accurate gun.

Seriously, lets get to the question that no one has had the cajones to bring up until now: When your attacked by zombies and wherewolves which pistol would you rather have?

When I am being attacked by hoards of zombies, I will go for the high capacity 9mm.

If it is wherewolves that are busting down my front door, I go with the 1911!

I have stubby fingers and the M9 suxxxx for me. Give me a 1911 any day.

Quoted: If it is wherewolves that are busting down my front door, I go with the 1911!

Wherewolves? There wolves!

I do not even own a standard Beretta 92FS, but instead have a .40 S&W Beretta Vertec (Straight Grip angle similar to the 1911). I also have the popular Kimber Warrior.

The Beretta has the Kimber Warrior 1911 beat in every catagory (aside from trigger), and does it for a HALF the price. No experience with the 9mm, but my .40 S&W is a great gun and I would trust it over my 1911 any day. I am sure this experiement will get the 1911 guys up and going but the simple truth is that the 1911 needed to be replaced and the Us Military, the worlds greatest force did alot of research, much more than any one of us could do, and came to the conclusion that the Beretta was the better gun. 1911 is old and it is suprising that it has kept up this long. Let it die, it has had its glory days and the 21st century isn't one of them.  

Quoted: What exactly does this prove? Two guys who are not great shooters in the first place shot better during one range trip with a Beretta? Did I miss something?

First off, it was one shooter.  Me.  edited: sorry if that wasn't clear enough, when I said I was doing my own comparison I was meaning when I shot either one.  I realize it wasn't that obvious.    
My dad cheats and rests his pistol and he still can't beat me.

  As for my prowess on shooting pistols.  I am not formally trained.  I am an enthusiast who has been shooting for about  4 years now.  I've only started shooting regularily the last 2.  But I've never claimed to be a terrific shot.  I am however a better shot than others around me who are novices.  If you look at the group with the M9 it is 3" across with 2 flyers.  For 15 shots.  And I shot that like a rapids.  Definitely under a minute and probably more like 30 seconds.  Also, the ammo used was WWB wally world specials.  For both calibers.  I know there are guys that can be alot more accurate than me, I'm not denying that, but I don't see that given the circumstances which I shot, that these are atrocious.  
   I am not surprised by your comment VA DINGER becuase in my experience your posts usually have an heir of arrogance to them.  And you could probably shoot circles around me all day.  And possibly you could from the moment you picked up a pistol.  My experince is that pistols take some time and effort to master.  
   I started a thread a while ago called "how accurate are you really"  and there were alot of claims about how guys could shoot 1 ragged holes at 25 yards but there were very very very few takers.  And the ones that did post results, in some cases were a hair worse then their claims.  But there were only a few who took the time to actually post results.  I think GreenO shot an excellent group with his .22 at 25 yards.  I believe it was under 3" and wyldearp submitted one but it didn't really follow the format I was asking for but it was still a pretty good group nevertheless.
   I find there are fewer people that actually analyze their shooting using proper parameters and many just claim.   Again, I am not justifying my claims.  I am however calling to the floor anyone who claims to be such a great shot, if you got the mouth to claim it, why don't you post some proof.  And I said this before, it helps show what is real and what is not.
     
I thank those of you who posted the links to better shooting techniques.  I am in the process of reading them.  It was late last night and I only got through the first page of the first link.  Very good stuff though.  I'll have to put some of  those practices to use.

Quoted: My Beretta shoots great. A lot of people have a lot of emotional attachment wrapped up in 1911s though for some reason (not that there's anything wrong with a good 1911). Too bad the trigger return spring broke in my Beretta, I gotta fix that.

That is a common failure on an M92, M96 or derivative. Very, very common.


The Berreta is simply too massive for what it does. If I had to pick a DA/SA wondernine, it would be a P226.

Quoted: My Beretta shoots great. A lot of people have a lot of emotional attachment wrapped up in 1911s though for some reason (not that there's anything wrong with a good 1911). Too bad the trigger return spring broke in my Beretta, I gotta fix that.

  Well, my heart tells me I like the 1911 more, but I can't get past the fact that the M9 IS much easier to shoot.  I also find it more comfortable.  But again, if my 1911 had a flat mainspring and a beavertail, it might be more comfortable.  I may have to go fondle some more to see if I should upgrade.  I do think the 1911 does point pretty naturally.  Meaning the sights line up a little quicker  than the beretta.  That may count for something too.  
   Like I said, I personally think they're both lethal.  I just don't know if I'm personally better served with a 1911 at the present.  I need some more practice with it.

Quoted: Quoted: My Beretta shoots great. A lot of people have a lot of emotional attachment wrapped up in 1911s though for some reason (not that there's anything wrong with a good 1911). Too bad the trigger return spring broke in my Beretta, I gotta fix that. That is a common failure on an M92, M96 or derivative. Very, very common. The Berreta is simply too massive for what it does. If I had to pick a DA/SA wondernine, it would be a P226.

This cracks me up.  It's so huge!!!!!!!!!!!!  How do you figure that it's that much bigger?  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My Beretta shoots great. A lot of people have a lot of emotional attachment wrapped up in 1911s though for some reason (not that there's anything wrong with a good 1911). Too bad the trigger return spring broke in my Beretta, I gotta fix that. That is a common failure on an M92, M96 or derivative. Very, very common. The Berreta is simply too massive for what it does. If I had to pick a DA/SA wondernine, it would be a P226. This cracks me up.  It's so huge!!!!!!!!!!!!  How do you figure that it's that much bigger?

It is WIDE. The DA trigger pull starts way the hell out there. I have big mitts but like thin grips on 1911s. Go figure.

A 9mm with a 4.9" barrel and a length similar to a 5" 1911......why?

What was range.

Quoted: What was range.

50'  That was the max on that range we went to that day.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My Beretta shoots great. A lot of people have a lot of emotional attachment wrapped up in 1911s though for some reason (not that there's anything wrong with a good 1911). Too bad the trigger return spring broke in my Beretta, I gotta fix that. That is a common failure on an M92, M96 or derivative. Very, very common. The Berreta is simply too massive for what it does. If I had to pick a DA/SA wondernine, it would be a P226. This cracks me up.  It's so huge!!!!!!!!!!!!  How do you figure that it's that much bigger?   It is WIDE. The DA trigger pull starts way the hell out there. I have big mitts but like thin grips on 1911s. Go figure. A 9mm with a 4.9" barrel and a length similar to a 5" 1911......why?

So that .1 inch is a deal stopper  for you?  I don't really get your point.

BTW, I don't really mind the DA on the M9.  I've not tested it to see how far I pull them, but I've practiced alot with it dry and hot and I don't find it that much of a detractor.  Although, the consistancy of a single action trigger is appreciated.

Ikor, good point. Here on a gun site, people tend to forget that small arms, especially pistols, do not win battles let alone wars.

Quoted: So that .1 inch is a deal stopper  for you?  I don't really get your point. BTW, I don't really mind the DA on the M9.  I've not tested it to see how far I pull them, but I've practiced alot with it dry and hot and I don't find it that much of a detractor.  Although, the consistancy of a single action trigger is appreciated.

It's not that I care about the .1", just that its too damn big for what it is and what it does. And harder to shoot than a modern 1911.

Quoted: What exactly does this prove? Two guys who are not great shooters in the first place shot better during one range trip with a Beretta? Did I miss something?

Nope you got the just of this post.

Quoted: "The Fight" is about a whole lot more than the firearm...in fact, shooting skill is pretty low on the 'requirements" list. IMO too many guys spend far too much time worrying about all the wrong things. Understand, it is entirely possible to become really, really good at something that doesn't matter all that much. (not that you should not care at all about shooting skills, but maybe they are not the "be all-end all" by themselves) One of the best articles I have read on fighting as opposed to shooting...by Ken Good...a really "Good" guy! Read "Got a Second? A Journey into the OODA Cycle" www.strategosinternational.com/reading.html

Ikor, thanks for the tip.  Very good stuff.  I'll take it to heart.  Last year I almost took a handgun course with Defensive Edge, but I was busy that weekend.  I think I should see if I can attend one this year.  I keep saying it, I just gotta do it.

Quoted: Quoted: So that .1 inch is a deal stopper  for you?  I don't really get your point. BTW, I don't really mind the DA on the M9.  I've not tested it to see how far I pull them, but I've practiced alot with it dry and hot and I don't find it that much of a detractor.  Although, the consistancy of a single action trigger is appreciated. It's not that I care about the .1", just that its too damn big for what it is and what it does. And harder to shoot than a modern 1911.

Then why did you bring it up?  My hands are not that big, and I have no problem reaching the trigger when it's WAY out there.  I can stomach a statement like," It doesn't fit me very well." or " I prefer the thinner profile."  That makes perfect sense.  But to state that it's "too damn big for what it does".  The  fraction of an inch in width somehow makes it shoot worse than a 1911?  The grip part of the frame on the 1911 is longer front to back. How does that fit into your "too big" equation?  In fact, I just took my wifes flexible sewing tape and measured them about midway down the grip from the bottom of the trigger gaurd and guess what:  THEY BOTH MEASURED 5-5/8".  Try it out.  As you can see, I do have an arched mainspring and those pachmyr  grips.   So obviously it could be trimmed out a bit.  If  that's what you like.  Basically everything you're saying in your statement is personal preference but you state it like its some kind of fact.  
Also, I've read enough WWII accounts from my grandpa's division book that prove handguns can be a key factor in a battle or skrimish.

Maybe you've seen combat. I'm assuming from your name you have. I admit I haven't.  If you have, I respect that.  And I'm trying to be as respectful as possible.  But your statements don't really make all that much sense to me.

Someone who has "seen combat" is probably not going to call themselves "Combat Jack"... just a thought.

Carry and shoot what works best for YOU.  IMHO if you can put multiple rounds ON TARGET, faster and more accurately with the Beretta, thats probably the weapon for you.  

Your speed, accuracy and skill will only improve with time, and practice.  

I am a firm believer that at the end of the day its your TRAINING that will see you through a civi-involved defensive gun battle... not the caliber of your handgun of choice.

I am also a firm believer that you should choose the weapon that fits you best, not  for you to try to fit the weapon you want most, especially amongst a particular crowd who is very pro-1911 and anti pretty-much-every-thing-else.  

If a 1911 is not a good fit for you, then its not the weapon for you, and the 1911 gunners be damned.  The same goes for the Glockers, the SIGmen, and the (insert cheesey platform name here).  

I dont care if your weapon of choice is a SIG, Glock, M9, Revolver, or 1911... select the weapon that best fits YOU, and learn your weapon well, inside and out.  

Remember, a weapon choice is as personal a choice as clothing.  Choose what fits you best, and is most comfortable for YOU.  Not what is comfortable for me, or anyone else.

As the old saying goes... beware the man with only one gun, chances are he's pretty good with it.  

Again just a thought...

I knew that Beretta made shotguns but I didn't know Springfield made them also!  

When did springfield start making shot guns?

You need to practice more no matter what pistol you choose.  

Just trying to help you out.

It doesn't matter what you are shooting as long as you can put the rounds where they are needed, when they are needed.  I've shot both weapons under combat conditions and I personally prefer the M9.  Simply because it has never failed me, I cannot say the same for the .45 unfortunately.  


Results may vary :)

Quoted: Someone who has "seen combat" is probably not going to call themselves "Combat Jack"... just a thought.

If you were a team member you would have seen several threads explaining the reason for my name, and then it would make sense.

Quoted: Then why did you bring it up?  My hands are not that big, and I have no problem reaching the trigger when it's WAY out there.  I can stomach a statement like," It doesn't fit me very well." or " I prefer the thinner profile."  That makes perfect sense.  But to state that it's "too damn big for what it does".  The  fraction of an inch in width somehow makes it shoot worse than a 1911?  The grip part of the frame on the 1911 is longer front to back. How does that fit into your "too big" equation?  In fact, I just took my wifes flexible sewing tape and measured them about midway down the grip from the bottom of the trigger gaurd and guess what:  THEY BOTH MEASURED 5-5/8".  Try it out.  As you can see, I do have an arched mainspring and those pachmyr  grips.   So obviously it could be trimmed out a bit.  If  that's what you like.  Basically everything you're saying in your statement is personal preference but you state it like its some kind of fact.   Also, I've read enough WWII accounts from my grandpa's division book that prove handguns can be a key factor in a battle or skrimish.

I admit, it is personal preference--mine and many other peoples. My complaints about the Beretta are that it's size is greater than necessary (compared with Glock and Sig), it has a LONG DA pull that is more difficult for me to manage than a Sig trigger, the safety/decocker is on the slide, the trigger spring goes tits up every few thousand rounds on most of them, the locking block breaks, etc.

Maybe you've seen combat. I'm assuming from your name you have. I admit I haven't.  If you have, I respect that.  And I'm trying to be as respectful as possible.  But your statements don't really make all that much sense to me.

Never seen action, was rejected by the recruiters for medical reasons. The name was a dare I took back in the day, when I said I was going to change it most people here said they thought it was funny (it's military slang) and asked me to keep it.

Quoted: Someone who has "seen combat" is probably not going to call themselves "Combat Jack"... just a thought. Carry and shoot what works best for YOU.  IMHO if you can put multiple rounds ON TARGET, faster and more accurately with the Beretta, thats probably the weapon for you.   Your speed, accuracy and skill will only improve with time, and practice.   I am a firm believer that at the end of the day its your TRAINING that will see you through a civi-involved defensive gun battle... not the caliber of your handgun of choice. I am also a firm believer that you should choose the weapon that fits you best, not  for you to try to fit the weapon you want most, especially amongst a particular crowd who is very pro-1911 and anti pretty-much-every-thing-else.   If a 1911 is not a good fit for you, then its not the weapon for you, and the 1911 gunners be damned.  The same goes for the Glockers, the SIGmen, and the (insert cheesey platform name here).   I dont care if your weapon of choice is a SIG, Glock, M9, Revolver, or 1911... select the weapon that best fits YOU, and learn your weapon well, inside and out.   Remember, a weapon choice is as personal a choice as clothing.  Choose what fits you best, and is most comfortable for YOU.  Not what is comfortable for me, or anyone else. As the old saying goes... beware the man with only one gun, chances are he's pretty good with it.   Again just a thought...

Thank you sir.  Excellent points.

Quoted: I knew that Beretta made shotguns but I didn't know Springfield made them also!   When did springfield start making shot guns? You need to practice more no matter what pistol you choose.   Just trying to help you out.

Are you one of those guys that just talks big or would you be so kind as to post some groups at 50' or 25 yards to justify your talk.

People often have the tendency to use/carry a pistol because that's what everyone else uses/carries instead of finding out what is best for them.

Both are inferior.

100% Dick Jones approved.

I have a 92G, and I don't really care for it.
I have some -a lot nicer- shooting guns

the trigger spring goes tits up every few thousand rounds on most of them, the locking block breaks, etc.

Your source please?

Quoted: It doesn't matter what you are shooting as long as you can put the rounds where they are needed, when they are needed.  I've shot both weapons under combat conditions and I personally prefer the M9.  Simply because it has never failed me, I cannot say the same for the .45 unfortunately.   Results may vary :)

I forgot to tell you last night.  Thank you for your service and your input here.