Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/30/2005 10:45:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 10:47:16 AM EDT by Tirador223]
A large local central Virginia PD is ending a 15-year use of SIG pistols in favor of .40 caliber Glocks. "We've had a lot of problems with the Sig Sauer over the years" said a police official. The department is trading even the 18 month old Sigs for 600 new Glocks.

Link to story

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:47:51 AM EDT
About time.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:56:08 AM EDT
well nice to find that i'm not the only one who had issue with sig 45.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 11:08:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 11:09:44 AM EDT by dullh]
It took me a while to convert (so to speak) to Glock after loving S&W autos...but for the past 5 years I have come to love Glocks! I think choosing a Glock over a Sig is a VERY WISE move. I have never been a fan of Sigs, for a variety of reasons I posted in a previous thread. I didn't have my Sig 228 for quite a week when I took it back and got a G19 instead...Glock on!
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 12:33:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2005 12:34:11 PM EDT by HotRod9mm]
Acronym

Sorry
Imitation of a
Glock

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:21:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:30:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor: This is NOT a slam on Glocks, just a wake up call to how business is really done in LE agencies!


Interesting reaction, and you may be right. I have a friend who is a Lt. in the adjoining Richmond PD and I will be curious to his reaction to the change in Henrico. I guess time will tell how long the Henrico PD uses the Glock and if they have a run that long before the next new thing comes along.

I should add that I live in Henrico County, and if the cops have Glocks, that's fine by me. I wish them all well.

Link Posted: 7/30/2005 6:24:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HotRod9mm:
Acronym

Sorry
Imitation of a
Glock

hr




Uh, no.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 6:30:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HotRod9mm:
Acronym

Sorry
Imitation of a
Glock





Wow...you're a genius.


BTW, the P220 was introduced in 1975, the Glock 17 in 1982....so not only are you a genius, but your WRONG.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 8:52:44 PM EDT
wow another police agency did it yahooooooooooo our town here in sanford nc did it about 2 or 3 months ago but get this it was not the .40 s&w good gun but better they all got the brand new .45 gap glocks and they switched from sig to hmmmmmmmmm im sensing a trend in law enforcement they realize the plastic gun works better.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:34:32 PM EDT
I own a few Sigs and a few Glocks and both makes have problems you need to look out for. The only make pistol I own that has never had a single issue ever is HK (FTF, etc.). YMMV.

For LEO's switching; Glock makes a pretty sweet deal for any dept. that brings them onboard. That and Glocks take abuse and neglect better than most, so maybe less time in the cage for repair.

I am happy to own Sig, Glock and HK. All high quality pistols, with some needing more attention than others.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:02:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2005 2:04:43 AM EDT by BrianNH]

Originally Posted By ikor:
I am a "Glock kinda guy" but this is mostly BS. I have had too much experience with COPs and other bureaucrats who want to design their own "legacy" to believe everything I read. The 220 is an excellent gun, but NO .45...IMO...is suitable for general issue to a bunch of "non-dedicated" troops...which describes virtually all LE agencies these days. Henrico Co. has used these guns for many, many years with...mostly...very few problems, and now, all of a sudden we are supposed to believe they have a major crises on their hands? PLEASE! Sorry, I don't buy it.

The G22 is an excellent sidearm and they may do well with it, but...honestly...my choice would have been the 226 or 229 in .40 or .357 with the DAK feature if my guys were coming off of training with the 220. I have seen such swaps happen before, and while they often work, they are almost never about "reliability"...almost always about "what the new chief wants"!

This is NOT a slam on Glocks, just a wake up call to how business is really done in LE agencies!



I agree. That is an interesting and impartial perspective. I'm not a huge Sig fan by any means, I prefer Glocks. However, I find it odd that they stayed with the Sig for 15 years, now they are no good. I also cant believe Sig couldn't make things right.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:08:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HotRod9mm:
Acronym

Sorry
Imitation of a
Glock

hr


Already claimed by Smith & Wesson...
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:32:51 AM EDT
I'll keep my Sig p220 over a glock thank your
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 2:43:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
I'll keep my Sig p220 over a glock thank your



+1
My agency issues Glock 22 pistols. I went and dumped $659 on a siggy P220 to carry instead. No regrets whatsoever. Still rather carry my old JMB design though!
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:25:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
I am a "Glock kinda guy" but this is mostly BS. I have had too much experience with COPs and other bureaucrats who want to design their own "legacy" to believe everything I read. The 220 is an excellent gun, but NO .45...IMO...is suitable for general issue to a bunch of "non-dedicated" troops...which describes virtually all LE agencies these days. Henrico Co. has used these guns for many, many years with...mostly...very few problems, and now, all of a sudden we are supposed to believe they have a major crises on their hands? PLEASE! Sorry, I don't buy it.

The G22 is an excellent sidearm and they may do well with it, but...honestly...my choice would have been the 226 or 229 in .40 or .357 with the DAK feature if my guys were coming off of training with the 220. I have seen such swaps happen before, and while they often work, they are almost never about "reliability"...almost always about "what the new chief wants"!

This is NOT a slam on Glocks, just a wake up call to how business is really done in LE agencies!



Sorry. New, but gotta chime in here.

I carried a Sig P220 for 7 years at my PD. I guess I should say I carried two, since one had to be replaced. Everything on it broke at one point or another, including the frame cracking eventually. Thing was also a rust bucket - finish was horrible. Every time we qualified (every 6 mos) at the PD, there were always several malfunctions that I saw - often my own pistol. On the SWAT team, we had nothing but trouble with the hunks of crap - always malfunctioning. And it wasn't that we didn't maintain them - we did. I even saw the slide shoot off a 220 while we were firing in a stack - in very close proximity to one another. We all sat there dumbfounded . . . . wondering if we just saw what we thought we saw. We did. Slide shot downrange - takedown pin sheared off.

A survey at my PD showed that better than 60% of the officers on the department had regular malfunctions with their issued guns. Many were replaced, but the brand new guns were just as unreliable as the old ones. Mine was. I knew other officers from other agencies - same story. Boringly regular series of parts breakage and malfunctions with factory new ammo.

I bought a Glock 21 to carry for SWAT. Never once hiccupped in five years. Never. Many of the guys did the same - wouldn't trust their lives to the Sig 220. Eventually, our PD switched to the Glock 31 after testing everything you can think of. All of a sudden, our function probelms went away. Our non-shooters still can't shoot, and our shooters can, but overall scores went way up.

I'm not saying all Sigs are bad - the 226's we had before the 220 were trouble-free. But the 220 in it's current iteration has some issues. I wouldn't use one as a fishing weight. A few people at our agency had no problems at all, but too many did for it to be a coincidence.

And I ain't an admin pogue. I work alcohol and narcotics, and spend most of my day out on the street. I ain't sellin' nothing. Take it or leave it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:02:45 PM EDT
I am one of the Armorer guys for my dept. and we have never......never.........NEVER paid one red cent for any Glock replacement part!!!!

Once a year we put all of the glock broken parts into an envelope.......mail it to Glock..........then with-in 10 days we get a small package from Glock with all brand new parts!!!

Excellent customer service, not just for LE, but for everyone!!!

story two...............my buddy does same job for a Dept. that carries SIGs, short story he has the same story, just at the end add ........he gets a bill from SIG!!! SAD
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:15:11 PM EDT
You guys know how much I like Glocks but I really think this boils down to $$$$$
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:14:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyhorse705:
hmmmmmmmmm im sensing a trend in law enforcement they realize the plastic gun works better.



More like Glocks are cheaper.
Don't get me started on a local city that issues Sigmas for cost reasons.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:26:00 AM EDT
a friend of mine has a Sig Psomething (40 SW, compact) as a carry pistol. I tried getting him to go to a range shoot one day and he said he didn't want to wear out the slide, mags, or the barrel because the mags were expensive.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 4:48:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:04:20 PM EDT by Aim4MyHead]
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:08:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
I am a "Glock kinda guy" but this is mostly BS. I have had too much experience with COPs and other bureaucrats who want to design their own "legacy" to believe everything I read. The 220 is an excellent gun, but NO .45...IMO...is suitable for general issue to a bunch of "non-dedicated" troops...which describes virtually all LE agencies these days. Henrico Co. has used these guns for many, many years with...mostly...very few problems, and now, all of a sudden we are supposed to believe they have a major crises on their hands? PLEASE! Sorry, I don't buy it.

The G22 is an excellent sidearm and they may do well with it, but...honestly...my choice would have been the 226 or 229 in .40 or .357 with the DAK feature if my guys were coming off of training with the 220. I have seen such swaps happen before, and while they often work, they are almost never about "reliability"...almost always about "what the new chief wants"!

This is NOT a slam on Glocks, just a wake up call to how business is really done in LE agencies!



I believe the VA State Police carry a P229 in 357 Sig.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:14:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:03:50 PM EDT by Aim4MyHead]

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
There are probably a few factors... COST being the biggest one i'm sure. When the government is involved all they see are dollar signs. Another thing is Glocks are like revolvers in the sense of how simple they are. Not every LEO is a gun guy. Most have trouble understanding the basic principles of shooting. SIG makes a fantastic weapon they more expensive though. I guess there will be a few more factory refurbs at SIG this month.


J



The Glocks have the following:
Simplicity, Low cost, easy to use, easy to maintain, reliable

Seems like a no brainer.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:14:22 AM EDT
I own both and honestly my 3 Glocks(22,23,19) have all jamed and failed in several ways over the time I have owned them. My Sigs on the other hand(229,220,239) have all been 100% reliable and have been shot a lot more because of that. I like my Glocks but I trust my Sigs a lot more.

The above could be said about eather gun. In my case the Sig is the superior gun in others it is the Glock.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 2:28:04 PM EDT
I believe these were the newer 220 railed model. Bad mag springs, cracked breach blocks, abnormal rail wear, and some other stuff. I never heard or read what was done about it, but it looks like the problems weren't solved, hence the Glock purchase. I don't believe this has anything to do with older 220s, or we would have heard more barking by now.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:08:18 AM EDT
Proabbly a "new" model problem. The ISP recently dumped their new G22's because the frame would flex and break/crack. Apparently Glock came up with a version 2 to rememdy that problem.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:37:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 1:37:55 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
I consider my agency average for shooters, meaning most know which end the bullet comes out of. Pistols are poorly maintained by the end user and at range qual time the guns are all inspected by the range officers. Usually one or two is pulled off the line for a quick parts swap and almost every time there are malfunctions. The agency issues glock 22 and 23 pistols as well as a few 17s. Every time I've gone to the range I've seen one of the glocks malfunction. My first P220 malfunctioned at an unacceptable rate, it was an older west german gun. I replaced it with a new production P220 and have had no issues since. Glocks certainly are no more reliable than anything else when neglected by the average officer. Keep drinking the koolaid.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 2:47:00 AM EDT

Already claimed by Smith & Wesson...


The Smock! he
And the remaining 10% I suspect are the ones buying their own.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 3:34:57 AM EDT
I'd tend to agree that cost is the main issue with this replacement. Maybe the Henrico cops just like Glock better, I don't know. I'd be very happy to go down there, offer them $50 for every junky Sig 220 they have and take them off their hands. My 220 has been nothing but 100%. It loves Wolf, UMC, Blazer, handloads of course, and everything else I've ever put through it. I also use ACT/Novak mags so that could be one reason for it's uber-reliability. With Sig mags it's had a few problems. Mine was made in December '97 with a German made slide. Maybe there are issues with the new models? I think we need more information on this whole replacement. MJD
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 2:14:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
I consider my agency average for shooters, meaning most know which end the bullet comes out of. Pistols are poorly maintained by the end user and at range qual time the guns are all inspected by the range officers. Usually one or two is pulled off the line for a quick parts swap and almost every time there are malfunctions. The agency issues glock 22 and 23 pistols as well as a few 17s. Every time I've gone to the range I've seen one of the glocks malfunction. My first P220 malfunctioned at an unacceptable rate, it was an older west german gun. I replaced it with a new production P220 and have had no issues since. Glocks certainly are no more reliable than anything else when neglected by the average officer. Keep drinking the koolaid.



Reminds me of an old story from a gunsmith friend of mine. LEO brought in a S&W revolver to the smith said it wasn't working and he needed to qualify tomorrow. Gunsmith opened the cylinder and found green stuff growing on the cartridges. Asked the guy when was the last time he shot his gun. Answer was last year at qualification!!!

Having worked on and off and a gunshop range the last 5 years. Whenever I hear of a guy having a problem with a Glock on the range I find it's best to go and shoot the gun myself. I usually rapidly fire the rest of the magazine. 99.9% of the time the malfunction is from limp wristing. Anything gun will break if shot enough, parts wear out, but I see alot more breakage from guns other than Glock.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:07:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:22:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:10:51 AM EDT
I have sigs and Glocks. I know both have had problems. I had a Sig 220 that had the slide crack due to the amount of ammo I shoot. Sig took care of me so I am not concerned with that. Never had one hiccup with a Glock of any kind. Still love both brands. Most people that claim one is better than the other bases it off there personal experience and that is not all bad.

It is just like all the folks that scream the Kimber is the best production 1911 on the market. I have owned 2 and between the retail of near 1k on each model and the shipping charges that I spent to send them back and forth to Kimber to have them fixed so they would fire worth a shit I probably had 3k in both of those weapons. But people live and die by them.

I feel if you get a Glock, Sig, or HK you will get a good weapon. I personally like the Glock the best and find it much easier to shoot.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:15:33 AM EDT
If they have issues with a sig, why in the HELL are they going to glocks. Glock this Glock that, fuck that. I'd give my left nut for a generation one Glock. the rest are pieces of shit. I don't care what anyone says. I watch good shooters every other weekend having issues with glocks. Not to mention you can get two glocks. consecutive serial numbers. side by side, same ammo, same mags, same shooter. Pick one up and hit anything you aim at, and pick the other up and not be able to hit a brick wall. Controlled obsolesence
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:24:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 8:24:34 AM EDT by spcwes]
Dusty C,

I am sorry, I do not see the amount of problems with Glocks that you obviously do. I shoot thousands of rounds as do most of my buddies and all the departments issue them as well and do not have any problems. All the weapons have been consistent as well as far as accuracy goes.

I am sure that if you picked up one and then another and could not hit anything that there is something wrong and Glock will take care of it.
Top Top