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Posted: 6/15/2005 6:04:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:13:18 PM EDT
maybe they can trade them for the illinois glock 22's that are going back.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:14:15 PM EDT
Would be interested in knowing the specific circumstances behind the failures...
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:16:44 PM EDT
Wow, bad taste twice in a row!
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:17:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:19:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ChrisLe:
Would be interested in knowing the specific circumstances behind the failures...



Yes, that would be nice.

I'm guessing 'thumb pressing the slidestop' disease.



Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2005 6:23:17 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:23:27 PM EDT
Do you know exactly what ammo they are using? Just wondering.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:31:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2005 8:13:26 AM EDT by COZ_45]
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:37:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 7:22:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2005 8:13:46 AM EDT by COZ_45]
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 7:37:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 7:50:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 7:52:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 8:43:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 8:54:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2005 8:55:20 PM EDT by CavVet]

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
You'll be fine and so will she.

I've not seen the issues mentioned here.

This is very suspect. Read up on the test performed on them in several magazines.

THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of rounds without failures or issues.




+1

I am wondering what kind of ammo or armorer they had that made problems with those HS's so different than anything we have seen widely reported.

Not discountin bigbores report, I think something is funny in that PD, one way or the other.




ETA: and they only had them 6 months??



Link Posted: 6/15/2005 10:14:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
You'll be fine and so will she.

I've not seen the issues mentioned here.

This is very suspect. Read up on the test performed on them in several magazines.

THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of rounds without failures or issues.




+1

I am wondering what kind of ammo or armorer they had that made problems with those HS's so different than anything we have seen widely reported.

Not discountin bigbores report, I think something is funny in that PD, one way or the other.




ETA: and they only had them 6 months??






I'm telling you, I have beat the living SHIT out of my XD-357. Dropped mags, no cleaning, running it match-style and in courses for a solid year and it has been dropped, handled poorly and treated with total disregard, and it's still running like a top after thousands of rounds. I have dropped my mags hundreds of times, no damage or problems with them. All are still in fine working order.

I am also a member on HS2000 talk and I have not heard of guide rod issues at all. Of the things that do plague the gun, most are cosmetic or annoyance.

Something rotten in Denmark here. Dunno what is happening to their guns, but it seems totally isolated from the anecdotal problems I've ever seen with the gun or heard of.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 10:15:09 PM EDT
Hell, they are trading XD's for hand grenades? DO they think they are better off
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 10:48:02 PM EDT
Those breakages must've been pretty bad if they prefer KBs to them...
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 10:51:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2005 10:52:01 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 11:19:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ_45:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
I'm calling



Sorry. have one, sold several. All reports are great and I've had not one single FTF in over 500 rds and I know three police officers that LOVE theirs.




OK, you dont have to believe me if you dont want to



It's amazing to me that they ALL failed. Let's see the news report link or a scan of the documentation.

Of course, I'm quite prejudiced and a Springfield bigot. I just want to see a bit more "evidence".

If not, I hope your source is right...because I have not seen that kind of unreliability in any gun....well, except maybe Hawes...(out of business)



COZ_45, 500 rounds is nothing, IMHO. I suspect that if there was a real transition training all of the guns exceeded 500 rounds during that. Not to mention any qualification or training shoots after the transition.

Next, "unservicable" what does that mean? It could be anything that means the weapon isn't 100% correct. Rust, broken mag. base pads, etc. etc.

It does seem like an unusual problem. I am also sure that most PD's with more than a few people have firearms maint. issues. Firearms are like any other mechanical device. If there are moving parts, there are easily broken parts. Remember those darn slides and such are FAST moving parts.

There's not enough info to make any type of decsion as to the nature of the problem, let alone if the guns are the actual problem.

Yes ISP is having all their Glock .40's replaced. Instead of denying any problem Glock took steps to eliminate the problem, that seems to be minor at best. ISP has had problems with their Glocks not feeding properly when used with a handgun light. Glock is replacing the guns. As many of you may know Glocks were sold BEFORE handgun lights were common. There have been some problems with FTF with the older magazine springs. Glock has addressed that by spec'ing stornger springs in their .40 cal weapons.

I have got to wonder if perhaps the PD in question issues, or authorizes rail mounted lights on their XD's...................
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 1:02:01 AM EDT
My only question is how well did the XP's do in the "DEA Frisbee Test" ?
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 1:33:55 AM EDT
well, first thing I did with my XD was replace the guide rod with a one piece stainless steel f*cker and a new wolff spring. Sounds like tehy shoulda done the same. I easily have 2-3000 rounds through my XD40 Tactical in under 6 months. and I am waiting for the arrival of my ported 4 inch model.

I clean mine after every range trip though, and only feed her ammo she likes (american eagle fmj and winchester sxt's), both of which LEO's can be using for range use and carry respectively.

Definitely sounds like a little institutional bias is at play here. 6 out of 23? That's a pretty large number.

Although if they did no cleaning and left the original guide rods in, I could see a problem..... but not 25% failure, that's a little hard to believe.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:06:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Damn-I stayed away from these because I thought they were unproven then talked myself into getting one for the g/f but it's a 9mm so maybe it won't have the same problems.



You'll be fine and so will she.

I've not seen the issues mentioned here.

This is very suspect. Read up on the test performed on them in several magazines.

THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of rounds without failures or issues.





Sure, read gun magazine reviews or find a news media article confirming the story, but a trusted Industry Parter from the board posts what a police armorer said, and they are both full of shit....

I get it. Sorry your pet ox got gored.




Thanks Lump. I thought ARFCOM had gone Guns & Ammo for a few seconds there.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:24:12 AM EDT
Chalk another anectdotal story up for the XDs reliability. Mine has several thousand rounds thru it and has been thru 2 courses without a failure. I wonder if the guns are consecutive and there was a metalurgic issue with a batch of guide rods. It's definitely not a systemic problem or it would have surfaced already.

Bomber
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:50:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 3:57:03 AM EDT by M4arc]
Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ but I do find it funny that when a PD reports a problem with a Glock everyone is quick to jump on the anti-Glock bandwagon. Now we see a creditable source (and yes, I consider bigbore and his connections to be creditable) report a XD problem you guys call BS because you've either shot 500 rounds through your XD or you haven't read about it on the internet or in a gun rag

It’s almost comical to watch…almost.


Link Posted: 6/16/2005 4:39:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:
you guys call BS




I don't doubt our erstwhile industry pardner... it's the PD armorer that I wonder about. It's just hard to believe that a gun (not made in france, that is) has 25% failures.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 4:50:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By M4arc:
you guys call BS




I don't doubt our erstwhile industry pardner... it's the PD armorer that I wonder about. It's just hard to believe that a gun (not made in france, that is) has 25% failures.



I'm not singling you out but it's funny how people don't find it hard to believe when a failure(s) is reported with a Glock. It's only hard to believe when it happens to an XD.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 4:55:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:00:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By M4arc:
you guys call BS




I don't doubt our erstwhile industry pardner... it's the PD armorer that I wonder about. It's just hard to believe that a gun (not made in france, that is) has 25% failures.



I'm not singling you out but it's funny how people don't find it hard to believe when a failure(s) is reported with a Glock. It's only hard to believe when it happens to an XD.



+1, Problems with the XD's will become more and more apparent as they get more and more popular. It is not that they are bad guns, it is just that with more guns sold there are more chances for lemons to escape the factory. That is what happened with Glock and that is what will happen with the XD's. It should not be taken as a sign that the design is defective but rather that the design is so good so many have sold and perhaps QC took a hit that day.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:02:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 5:06:06 AM EDT by thebomber]

Originally Posted By M4arc:
Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ but I do find it funny that when a PD reports a problem with a Glock everyone is quick to jump on the anti-Glock bandwagon. Now we see a creditable source (and yes, I consider bigbore and his connections to be creditable) report a XD problem you guys call BS because you've either shot 500 rounds through your XD or you haven't read about it on the internet or in a gun rag

It’s almost comical to watch…almost.





Yea....it's almost as comical as the Glock defenders are about any mishaps with their exalted weapon.

Ever consider the reaction to be a normal human response? Lighten up Frances.......these accounts, including the PD's experience aren't anything other than anecdotal (ie mean jack in the big picture). Unless you had a statistically valid sample (chi square analysis anyone?) you can't draw any conclusions for or against XDs or for or against Glocks so it becomes a he said she said. The XD response is the same as the Glock response.....normal.

Bomber

ETA....this is how it should go:

"your gun sucks!"......." ok thanks for letting me know "
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:05:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:10:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
well, first thing I did with my XD was replace the guide rod with a one piece stainless steel f*cker and a new wolff spring. Sounds like tehy shoulda done the same. I easily have 2-3000 rounds through my XD40 Tactical in under 6 months. and I am waiting for the arrival of my ported 4 inch model.

I clean mine after every range trip though, and only feed her ammo she likes (american eagle fmj and winchester sxt's), both of which LEO's can be using for range use and carry respectively.

Definitely sounds like a little institutional bias is at play here. 6 out of 23? That's a pretty large number.

Although if they did no cleaning and left the original guide rods in, I could see a problem..... but not 25% failure, that's a little hard to believe.



nearly half the ammo through my XD (I'm pretty sure I have 1200 SXT's and 1800 FMJ's through her) has been 'not range' ammo.

What's easier to believe, that fully one QUARTER of a departments XD have failed or:
one quarter of the officers haven't cared for their guns properly
one quarter of the officers aren't 'gun people' who know to change out their guide rods
the PD simply doesn't like the XD and needs a reason to replace them
any other number of reasons that are easier to BELIEVE than a 25% failure rate.

Maybe 6 out of a thousand, heck 6 out of a hundred would be surprising. but 6 out of 24. Give me 24 of these:



and I'll get more than 18 of them to fire.

and I'm not anti glock or pro-xd or any of that. I had a glock too and never experienced a SINGLE ftf, fte, etc. It's served LEO's for almost two decades now near flawlessly.

This is simply:
my experience (many rounds, harsh loads)
+ XD's track record thus far (friends guns, other people at range)
+ reasonable doubt ( 6 out of 24!!! normal LEO knowledge of guns, normal LEO maintenance)
----------------------------
= something a little suspicious.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:29:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:39:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:51:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Originally Posted By M4arc:
Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ but I do find it funny that when a PD reports a problem with a Glock everyone is quick to jump on the anti-Glock bandwagon. Now we see a creditable source (and yes, I consider bigbore and his connections to be creditable) report a XD problem you guys call BS because you've either shot 500 rounds through your XD or you haven't read about it on the internet or in a gun rag

It’s almost comical to watch…almost.





Yea....it's almost as comical as the Glock defenders are about any mishaps with their exalted weapon.

Ever consider the reaction to be a normal human response? Lighten up Frances.......these accounts, including the PD's experience aren't anything other than anecdotal (ie mean jack in the big picture). Unless you had a statistically valid sample (chi square analysis anyone?) you can't draw any conclusions for or against XDs or for or against Glocks so it becomes a he said she said. The XD response is the same as the Glock response.....normal.

Bomber

ETA....this is how it should go:

"your gun sucks!"......." ok thanks for letting me know "



You missed the whole point of my post.

Oh well, carry on
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:07:07 AM EDT
Come one!

Lets get back tothe Springeffield Bashing and the Glock Bashing!

IU'll keep carrying my Glock 20 and Coz_45 will keep carrying his XD. Both will porbab;y work when we need them to work.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:26:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 6:30:26 AM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
I'm calling




Sorry. have one, sold several. All reports are great and I've had not one single FTF in over 500 rds and I know three police officers that LOVE theirs.




...crap.,

Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:29:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Whats with the armorer to wonder about? He issued officers a firearm that doesn't go bang all the time. 25% of the issued weapons have become inoperable for one reason or another. Its not complicated, or confusing. What armorer would be comfortable knowing his fellow officers were carrying firearms with a rate of failure that high?!



I don't know about the depth of a PD armorer's knowledge of the weapons they issue, but speaking from 11 years in the Army, the "armorers" that issue the weapons from the arms room in the units I've been in or around weren' any more qualified than the people they were issueing the weapons to. And of those people, most of the only saw their weapons 1-2 times a year, didn't personally own many if any firearms, and maintained their weapons with less care than their wrinkles uniforms... whic is to say, if they experienced failures of any sort it was more than likely operator error and/or negligence.

Like I said... I don't know about the average knowledge level of the cops getting issued these pistols (like how many are rookies right out of school that were probably trained on a different pistol).

my $0.02 after taxes...
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:40:07 AM EDT
Wow.

<---tagging thread for updates


Here's an idea:

Maybe while we're waiting for those updates, we could all belly up to the keyboard and spout off our own wild theories as to what happened, why, and how it could have been prevented, and in the meantime, we can cite our collective days and even months of experience as proof that we're really experts here.



I mean, hey, c'mon, it's not like any of our self-appointed experts have ever ran their keyboards to the point that well-respected people (in real life, that is!) left arfcom completely.


So, come on, guys, what did the cops do wrong?

Tell us more, tell us more!

Enlighten us!

<--having a hard time keeping his tongue in his cheek here, but trying nevertheless......
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:55:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
belly up to the keyboard and spout off our own wild theories


I find it heartening to hear that they're finishes managed to make it past the 6 month mark.

My little XD9-SC (which I really like BTW!) came NIB with rust on the rear sight AND showed a minor pit on the barrel rifling at around 200 rounds.

When the HS200 first came out I said, "Only time will tell if these babies are as good as Glocks..."
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:12:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
I dont stock any .40 pistols because I think its a stupid caliberhr


+1
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 3:27:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:
Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ but I do find it funny that when a PD reports a problem with a Glock everyone is quick to jump on the anti-Glock bandwagon. Now we see a creditable source (and yes, I consider bigbore and his connections to be creditable) report a XD problem you guys call BS because you've either shot 500 rounds through your XD or you haven't read about it on the internet or in a gun rag

It’s almost comical to watch…almost.



How true!!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 4:45:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 5:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 6:38:41 PM EDT by ajamesp51]
I deal with XD`s probably more than anyone other than Sprinfield Armroy. That being said I belive the descriptions of the problems. Starting around the end of Oct 2004 through Feb 2005 I persoanally had over 25 different customers have the stock assemblies fail and break. The weld on the end of the assembly would give out and the cap would unscrew it self comming apart inside the pistol. I talked to a dozen people through getting the pistol back apart to install a full length guide rod. SA is aware of the problem and if they say they diddnt know I call bull shit becuase at the shotshow in Jan I told and even showed them pictures of the broken rods. After my 25 personal experences with this problem on the xd talk group during the same period others also reported the same failier all of them in the service model xd-40. Now after the Shot show the problem was supposed to be taken care of and the issue pretty much died this dept probably recived pistols that were in the bad batch since it was just a few moths ago. That being said once the guide rod was replaced the pistol were back to 100% and the longest cure is a full length guide rod becuase it is not an assembly and wont come appart. All 7 of my personal xd`s and hs2000`s all have full length guide rods. I would like Bigbore to PM me with the departments name I would like to call them and get some more information from them not to be critical but to help others.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 6:05:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2005 8:14:50 AM EDT by COZ_45]
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 9:29:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
I really didnt expect these BS responses, but I find them very amusing



Ok, somebody's got to say it...
Do the police shoot them enough to even get them dirty?
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 10:01:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 10:02:25 PM EDT by M15A2]
My XD has 15 rounds through it without a FTF and it wasn't Winchester white box it was hollow points from the bass pro. Everyone knows XD's will function even at red hot temperatures not like those Glocks, that will KB first chance they get. Glock has a slick marketing department and thats the real reason that HUNDREDS of military and law enforcement agencies issue them.



The above post was sarcasm
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 10:40:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

I really didnt expect these BS responses, but I find them very amusing



I can tell you why. The whole thing smells funny.

25-33% failure rate is horrific. That would be bad by ANYONE's standards. Even guns that have bad reps typically work better than that.

So having that said of any gun by any reputable manufacturer... it smells.

And I'd say the same thing if they said that had that kind of a failure rate with a Glock, Ruger, S&W, H&K, Kimber... You get the idea. Springfield doesn't have the rep of producing crap. The XD's don't have a rep of being crap. Heck, there are plenty of manufacturers that DO make crap that works more than 2/3's of the time.

So right now, what we have is 3rd party information that you have recieved. We don't know what's ACTUALLY wrong with the pistols. Just what your source told you.

Do I call BS? No. I have insufficient information. Do I believe that these guns have a 33% failure rate? I think it's highly unlikely.

My suspicion is that there's something else at work here.

I suspect it's maintenance related, for that many pistols to fail at once. Maybe someone's been putting something back together wrong.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 10:45:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2005 10:51:36 PM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By thebomber:
Chalk another anectdotal story up for the XDs reliability. Mine has several thousand rounds thru it and has been thru 2 courses without a failure. I wonder if the guns are consecutive and there was a metalurgic issue with a batch of guide rods. It's definitely not a systemic problem or it would have surfaced already.

Bomber



Exactly.

I have had no problems with my XD40 service whatsoever. Not that that means much.

There's got to be some circumstances here. Things can go wrong - but I don't think it's a problem with the design or manufacturing process as a whole. If XDs were known to break recoil guide rods or magazines were known to break or malfunction, we would know this in the civilian world too.

I'm really wondering what exactly the explanation is.

That being said, when the .40 Glocks start "rapidly disassembling" themselves, I hope they'll be happy
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 10:57:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

I really didnt expect these BS responses, but I find them very amusing




So right now, what we have is 3rd party information that you have recieved. We don't know what's ACTUALLY wrong with the pistols. Just what your source told you.

Do I call BS? No. I have insufficient information. Do I believe that these guns have a 33% failure rate? I think it's highly unlikely.

My suspicion is that there's something else at work here.

I suspect it's maintenance related, for that many pistols to fail at once. Maybe someone's been putting something back together wrong.



Generally speaking, it's always a good idea to check up on the circumstances of the failure of any piece of equipment (my field being IT) if the failure rate reported by a single source is significantly higher than what is expected. You're going to have some failures - that's unavoidable, there's no such thing as a perfect piece of equipment, at least not in terms of every single individual item that comes off the assembly line.

I don't think that this is a cause for panic for XD owners or people planning to buy an XD in any way. Simply put, until we can determine what exactly was the cause for the failures (which may not be directly related to the gun, but how the dept. used and maintained them, we don't know) this should be treated as one data point. This is NOT evidence of XDs failing across the board, this is ONE department with ONE armorer who we have some hearsay from.

There's a reason that's not accepted in court, you know.
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