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Posted: 9/20/2009 1:42:04 AM EST
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117872



.45 fmj has the lead over 9mm hps. It's surprising how so many people do no research at all before deciding what is best.

3 pages of stupid.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 1:48:22 AM EST
Could you enlighten us with your opinion?

I carry a .45 because it has a better history of actually stopping human behavior.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 2:11:55 AM EST
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:13:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hero:
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.





"The myth of the Fourty Five can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. " ―Obi-Wan Kenobi "

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 3:31:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hero:
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.



Yes, that is the case. I find it rather amazing.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:11:01 AM EST
New thread/poll inbound.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:31:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By rike:
Could you enlighten us with your opinion?

I carry a .45 because it has a better history of actually stopping human behavior.


9mm luger has been around and killing people in Europe about as long as .45.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:33:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 4:33:39 AM EST by abpt1]
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1117872



.45 fmj has the lead over 9mm hps. It's surprising how so many people do no research at all before deciding what is best.

3 pages of stupid.



well of course its on GT a whole fucking site of
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:18:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By Hero:
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.





"The myth of the Fourty Five can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. " ―Obi-Wan Kenobi "



Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:24:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 5:25:39 AM EST by thesmiter1]
Originally Posted By Hero:
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By Hero:
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.





"The myth of the Fourty Five can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. " ―Obi-Wan Kenobi "





Obi-Wan has taught you well.

I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:28:24 AM EST


I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.



Pistol cartridges don't cause it, but revolvers in magnum cals? Yes.. They use the Force....
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:30:05 AM EST
Can the poll include if you were banned on GT too?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:40:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1IV:


I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.



Pistol cartridges don't cause it, but revolvers in magnum cals? Yes.. They use the Force....


Can you site your source? Hydrostatic shock is debated heavily, anyway, so a source would be nice.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:46:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spiffums:
Can the poll include if you were banned on GT too?




Who is this directed at? And why is this relevant?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:52:03 AM EST
I carry a .45 (with modern hollowpoints) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm and +P+ hollowpoints.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 6:03:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By Hero:
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By Hero:
I think he is saying that in the GT thread, the members are preferring the .45 FMJ over 9mm hollow points.





"The myth of the Fourty Five can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. " ―Obi-Wan Kenobi "





Obi-Wan has taught you well.

I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.


Depending on who you talk to, even wound cavities from pistols don't do a whole lot, only CNS hits.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:07:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By 1IV:


I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.



Pistol cartridges don't cause it, but revolvers in magnum cals? Yes.. They use the Force....


Can you site your source? Hydrostatic shock is debated heavily, anyway, so a source would be nice.


Read anything by Fackler, for example, FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:17:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:27:21 AM EST by thesmiter1]
Originally Posted By Hector_X:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By 1IV:


I hope everyone here realizes the only difference between a 9mm fmj and a .45 fmj is .10 of an inch, and some speed and weight. There is no 'energy dump.' There is no 'knockdown power.' There is only permanent and temporary wound cavities.

Pistol cartriges don't move fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock. They SUCK at stopping people. That is why the primary weapons of military organizations are rifles. Such is life.



Pistol cartridges don't cause it, but revolvers in magnum cals? Yes.. They use the Force....



Can you site your source? Hydrostatic shock is debated heavily, anyway, so a source would be nice.


Read anything by Fackler, for example, FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness


page 13, paragraph 3, of your source calls hydrostatic shock a myth.

Did you read the report?

Wikipedia also declares that Fackler is an opponent of the existence of hydrostatic shock. Not a proponent.




Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:15:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 8:17:35 AM EST by thesmiter1]
That report is great. Just read the conclusion.

It basically says that the difference between calibers is very small. The edge is indeed with the larger bullet, but only very slightly. It reinforces the fact that SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY, and ADEQUATE PENETRATION is the most important after that. Anything after that, such as expansion, fragmentation, and temporary cavitation, are just icing on the cake. They do make a difference, along with size, but they make little difference when the calibers are so small and ineffective.

Because, think about it: a .45 is only 1/10 of an inch larger than a 9mm. The .45 will do more damage. But not a lot. If you want instantaneous incapacitation, use a sword and lop off some limbs. Even then they might continue to fight (Montey Python, anyone?). Otherwise, put 2-4 towards the chest, and another 2 at the head.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 9:09:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By Hector_X:

Read anything by Fackler, for example, FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness


page 13, paragraph 3, of your source calls hydrostatic shock a myth.

Did you read the report?

Wikipedia also declares that Fackler is an opponent of the existence of hydrostatic shock. Not a proponent.





My bad. I thought you were advocating for hydrostatic shock.
The only person I've seen recently working on proving hydrostatic shock exists is Michael Courtney. The wikipedia article quotes so much of his work it has to be astroturf.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 9:28:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 10:19:27 AM EST by thesmiter1]
Originally Posted By Hector_X:
Originally Posted By thesmiter1:
Originally Posted By Hector_X:

Read anything by Fackler, for example, FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness


page 13, paragraph 3, of your source calls hydrostatic shock a myth.

Did you read the report?

Wikipedia also declares that Fackler is an opponent of the existence of hydrostatic shock. Not a proponent.





My bad. I thought you were advocating for hydrostatic shock.
The only person I've seen recently working on proving hydrostatic shock exists is Michael Courtney. The wikipedia article quotes so much of his work it has to be astroturf.


Ah, just a misunderstanding in communication. I think that, from Fackler's work, even if there are some permanent effects of temporary cavitation at high velocities, they are usually negligible at best, and rarely does it permanently damage any tissue, due to most tissue being so elastic.

When you think about it, unless the round fragments bone or fragments itself, small munitions of any kind are relatively ineffective, better for maiming than killing on the spot. I guess that's why we have explosive and fragmentation munitions. And, of course, buckshot.

It's all about where the shots land, how deeply they penetrate, and in the case of the shotgun and fragmentation devices, how many holes are made.

God this stuff is fascinating!

Edit: Temporary cavitation obviously helps incapacitate. If your guts moved violently out of place for a second, and then back again, you might not feel so hot. Rifles do that much better than handguns. But barring pain, permanent wound channels are where it's at.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 9:40:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
I carry a .45 (with modern hollowpoints) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm and +P+ hollowpoints.


Ballistic tests show heavy 9mm standard-pressure loads (such as the 147gr RA9T, among others) to offer superior all-around performance when compared to the lighter, faster, high-pressure +P and +P+ 9mm loads.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 10:06:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
I carry a .45 (with modern hollowpoints) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm and +P+ hollowpoints.


Ballistic tests show heavy 9mm standard-pressure loads (such as the 147gr RA9T, among others) to offer superior all-around performance when compared to the lighter, faster, high-pressure +P and +P+ 9mm loads.


I had 147s in mind when I wrote that.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 1:08:02 PM EST
I love all 16 of 147 9mm hollowpoints in my carry handgun.


Link Posted: 9/20/2009 1:31:17 PM EST
Shot placement...

That's all I have to say about that.


.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 1:33:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Willz:
Shot placement...

That's all I have to say about that.


.


I love you, Jenny.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 1:48:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By MillerSHO:
I love all 16 of 147 9mm hollowpoints in my carry handgun.




This and +1 to shot placement, too.

I can put more 9mms on target in less time, more accurately than .45s. Based on that statement, accepting that all handgun rounds are marginal manstoppers anyway, I may be willing to take 9mm fmj over .45 fmj. Sure, one .45 in the exact same location as one 9mm may be more effective given that all other variables are held constant. This is for one shot. But when we include all the other variables, gun platform, number of rounds necessary in encounter, location of rounds' impact on human target (fighting back), stress, etc., the difference between a 9mm and a .45 start to seem rather minor overall. I want the total package that gets me the most accurate hits as quickly as I can make them. My training and practice has proven to me that FOR ME, that package is chambered in 9mm. The fact that I can carry good quality JHPs is just icing on the cake.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:23:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 5:24:42 PM EST by Spook410]
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
I carry a .45 (with modern hollowpoints) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9mm and +P+ hollowpoints.


Ballistic tests show heavy 9mm standard-pressure loads (such as the 147gr RA9T, among others) to offer superior all-around performance when compared to the lighter, faster, high-pressure +P and +P+ 9mm loads.


I think you're right but not by all that much. There are many 9mm +P rounds less than 147gr that perform fine if you use 12 inch penetration in gel as your benchmark. Then there is the Corbon DPX +P in 115gr that performs very well. That being said I'll run 147 gr in my BHP because it isn't +P and is easier on the gun while doing everything you want a good round to do. That assumes of course that the ammo on backorder ever comes in and that it functions well in the BHP.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:43:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
I think you're right but not by all that much. There are many 9mm +P rounds less than 147gr that perform fine if you use 12 inch penetration in gel as your benchmark. Then there is the Corbon DPX +P in 115gr that performs very well. That being said I'll run 147 gr in my BHP because it isn't +P and is easier on the gun while doing everything you want a good round to do. That assumes of course that the ammo on backorder ever comes in and that it functions well in the BHP.


Do you have such data available?

The Winchester Ranger-T +P+ is what I have found to be the most prevalent 9mm +P+ defensive round, and Winchester's own testing shows that it barely makes the 12" mark. Compare that to the 147gr Ranger-T, which again by their own testing offers ~14"-15" of penetration and superior weight retention in all cases. Expansion is roughly equivalent.

The +P+ brings nothing worthwhile to the table - the most it will ever be doing is providing comparable all-around performance to a standard-pressure 147gr 9mm loading, while at the same time providing greater wear-and-tear (and potentially more recoil).




Also - the all-copper offerings from Barnes, as loaded in CorBon DPX, cannot be compared when discussing velocity/pressure profiles and bullet weights, as their design and construction is radically different than any traditional lead-core projectile. This is not to say the the loads cannot be compared - they really are some top performers - but they have no place in a discussion about the relative effectiveness of different bullet and velocity/pressure loadings for a single caliber.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:25:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:27:39 PM EST by beltfed74]
Ive used both on living creatures, Id take the .45FMJ over 9mm HP's. Thats me, I dont personally care what anyone else uses.

From what Ive seen, 9mm needs to be heavy and even then if fails to punch through bone like the .45


ETA Oh and yeah, its 1/20th of an inch bigger all the way around. Makes a bigger difference.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 9:26:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hero:
Originally Posted By MillerSHO:
I love all 16 of 147 9mm hollowpoints in my carry handgun.




This and +1 to shot placement, too.

I can put more 9mms on target in less time, more accurately than .45s. Based on that statement, accepting that all handgun rounds are marginal manstoppers anyway, I may be willing to take 9mm fmj over .45 fmj. Sure, one .45 in the exact same location as one 9mm may be more effective given that all other variables are held constant. This is for one shot. But when we include all the other variables, gun platform, number of rounds necessary in encounter, location of rounds' impact on human target (fighting back), stress, etc., the difference between a 9mm and a .45 start to seem rather minor overall. I want the total package that gets me the most accurate hits as quickly as I can make them. My training and practice has proven to me that FOR ME, that package is chambered in 9mm. The fact that I can carry good quality JHPs is just icing on the cake.


I see you've read the ammo faq or at least some of Fackler's stuff. It's good to see that someone has....
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