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Posted: 4/27/2011 12:17:21 PM EDT
I can't think of any reason to NOT have a tac-light on the front of a handgun, aside from finding a dang holster to fit the gun Can you guys think of any reason why a tac-light on a handgun may have disadvantages? What are the advantages of having a hand-held light and using the cross-wrist technique? Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 12:19:34 PM EDT
Seen a few older Glocks (gen 1 iirc) not function with a light on them.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 12:27:07 PM EDT
Tactical lights make good aiming points for the bud guys to shoot at.
With a separate light you can hold the light out away from your body.

Not much of a disadvantage, provided the bad guy doesn't think about shooting at the light.
Or the bad guys buddy you didn't see shoot at the light when you have his friend lighted up like a deer in the headlights.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 12:32:18 PM EDT
A tendancy to use your handgun as a flashlight.  You may need a flashlight but you may not want to be pointing a pistol. In some jurisdictions pointing a pistol at someone is considered assault.  Not so much a flashlight.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:04:18 PM EDT
An advantage of using a light separate from a gun is that you can use your light w/o pointing a firearm at whatever your looking at. This may come in handy when something goes bump at night and it turns out it's your kid/wife getting something out of the fridge. Not that it's a huge deal in that situation but I like that I could keep a light on something while having the gun in the low ready or behind my back or something.


A disadvantage to this of course is that you don't have a free hand for reloads/malfunctions.

I think the best thing is to have a weapon light on your gun and a separate light on your belt or something cause having a light on doesn't really negatively affect anything (unless of course your gun malfunctions when a light is attached).
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:19:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By USMCRONIN:
Tactical lights make good aiming points for the bud guys to shoot at.


This. I have very good nightvision, I know the layout of my home, and I have good ears. I tend to look at a flashlight as a liability, especially in a woodland environment. Somebody else can spot a flashlight beam a long time before you'll spot them with it.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:34:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Seen a few older Glocks (gen 1 iirc) not function with a light on them.


Never seen a Gen 1 with a tac light on it.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:37:44 PM EDT
These guys have pretty much covered everything I was going to say. Well done fellas. I would only add that I trained to be able to raise my weapon from a low ready, aquire a sight picture and fire. I don't train to fire from a full firing stance all the time. I move in the low ready, I pie in the low ready, I train to engage from the low ready. I can't illuminate a room or my path or someone from the low ready, at least not comfortably.

There for I use a light in one hand, gun in the other.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:51:43 PM EDT
In addition to everything mentioned, I have large hands and long fingers. I my index finger always "stumbles" when I shoot my buddy's M&P9 with a light as I move from indexed to trigger.  Plus there's extra bulk and a little more weight if you're concealing.  If it's just a nightstand piece, more power to you.

Ultimately, like just about anything firearm related, it all comes down to personal preference.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 1:53:50 PM EDT
1. weight
2. makes you an easy target in low or no light

3. you are likely covering everything you shine on (training can get you past this)

4. harder to find holsters







Still, they offer lots of use for duty and for HD.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:03:03 PM EDT
Carrying a gun with a light equipped IWB freaking B L O W S. In my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:29:18 PM EDT
Lots of WTF in here.  
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 2:54:54 PM EDT
No.

Having one on the gun doesn't mean you can't still use a handheld in conjunction with it.

Train.   How.   To.   Use.   It.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 4:04:53 PM EDT
My home defense pistol has a flashlight on it mainly since it's just easier to grab the gun off the nightstand and turn the light on instead of fumbling around for a separate flashlight. My conceal carry guns don't have lights on them to conceal them easier, I carry a separate light in my pocket. Also sometimes I just need a light and don't want to draw my gun to use it in public ha.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 4:07:14 PM EDT
There was the cop who tried to turn on his light but pulled the trigger.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 4:13:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tx51210:
There was the cop who tried to turn on his light but pulled the trigger.


so?
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 5:31:20 PM EDT
for carry....it's slimmer therefore easier to conceal without the light



for bedside...so long as it doesn't affect reliability you should have one on there so when things go bump you only grab 1 thing instead of 2
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 5:50:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cordovamx:

Can you guys think of any reason why a tac-light on a handgun may have disadvantages?




Funny you should ask....................


Force Science warning: Gun-mounted flashlight device susceptible to fatal errors under high stress

The Force Science Institute strongly cautions LEOs to avoid a switching device that attaches to a popular gun-mounted flashlight and creates risk of an unintended firearm discharge during high-stress confrontations because of its design.

At least twice in recent months the device has been associated with shootings in which officers reportedly said they thought they were turning on the flashlight attached to their semiautomatic pistol when in fact they were pulling the weapon's trigger. One civilian was killed, the other seriously wounded in the consequent firings. Both were unarmed when shot.

Without commenting on the specifics of either case, Dr. Bill Lewinski, FSI's executive director, recently explained to Force Science News how a fateful interaction between human-performance dynamics and ill-conceived product configuration can cause such tragic confusion.

"In normal, nonstressful conditions or even under mild stress, the mechanism in question is likely to work as intended," Lewinski says. "But under high stress, when an officer's hand movements tend to be automatic and rapid, it can be a much different story.

"Because the problem is not likely to be corrected even with considerable training, the Institute recommends that for the safety of officers and subjects alike this particular switching device be avoided."

The mechanism in question is the DG grip switch assembly for the X-series of weapon lights produced by SureFire LLC, headquartered in Fountain Valley, CA. This optional switching mechanism fits on the tail cap of a SureFire X200, X300, or X400 flashlight which itself locks onto rails under a pistol's frame in front of the trigger guard.

The thin, flat, narrow housing for the grip-switch controls follows the outside contour of the trigger guard and then bends down a bit against the front strap of the grip. There, a small finger pad allows for on-off manipulation of the light. [CLICK HERE to see a photo of the switching mechanism and its relationship to a pistol.]

The benefit of this mechanism, according to SureFire's website, is that the officer behind the gun can "activate the light with finger pressure without needing to move a finger from the grip." The finger pad can simply be pressed with the "top grip finger, leaving the index finger free to operate the handgun trigger."

The problem with this, Lewinski explains, has nothing to do with the functioning of the flashlight itself. "SureFire flashlights are popular with law enforcement because they are powerful and effective," he says. Indeed, he recently bought one of the company's hand-held models for his personal use because of its exceptional brilliance and reliability.

"But the grip-switch operational option, while convenient, carries significant risk related to possible unintended discharges," he says.

One possibility, Lewinski asserts, is that under stress, when the exertion of physical pressure tends to become intensified, an officer pressing his middle finger against the flashlight switch pad will produce a sympathetic reaction in the index finger. If that finger happens to be inside the trigger guard and on the pistol's trigger, the reaction may be forceful enough to cause an unintentional discharge.

Ideally, of course, the index finger would be outside the guard and on the frame until a conscious decision to shoot has been made. But research studies have convincingly shown that, despite training to the contrary, officers in high-stress situations tend to move the finger onto the trigger, often without even being aware they have done so. [See FSN Transmission #3, 10/15/04, "Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?" Click here to read it.]

Another risk Lewinski foresees is the psychological stress phenomenon called "slips-and-capture" error. This would involve confusing the flashlight grip-switch pad with the pistol trigger, which are mere centimeters apart and require a similar action to activate.

Lewinski explains: "Slips-and-capture errors occur when a person is performing unconscious, automatic-type behavior under a high level of stress, time pressure, and sense of urgency. An intended behavior slips off the rails, so to speak, and is superseded or 'captured' by a more powerful, more frequently practiced automatic behavior. The error occurs so quickly that the person doesn't have time to catch it and correct it.

"If the action was happening in slow motion and the person was able to think about it logically, it wouldn't make sense and he'd correct it. But under stress and urgency, the action happens so fast and so unconsciously that it's impossible to self-assess, analyze, and readjust it."

In the civilian world, this phenomenon often makes the news when drivers confuse the accelerator with the brake and cause a car crash. In law enforcement, an example would be mistakenly drawing your sidearm when intending to draw your Taser, which has been documented in multiple instances.

"When you think you're doing one thing but are actually doing another, the result often is directly opposite of what you intended," Lewinski says. [See FSN Transmission #154, sent 7/19/10, which discussed slips-and-capture in context of the high-profile BART shooting in California. Click here to read it.]

To date, Lewinski has been involved as an expert witness in 4 cases in which slips-and-capture played a role. "It is a well-researched, real-world phenomenon," he says, "and the SureFire grip switch appears to be dangerously vulnerable to it."

Even extensive training may not be sufficient to overcome the attachment's potential flaws. "No amount of training can override certain well-defined human performance factors," Lewinski says. "It makes more sense to accommodate behavioral dynamics in the way tools are designed for use in high-stress situations."

In the case of the grip switch, Lewinski recommends relying instead on the on-off mechanism that is built into the flashlight itself and can be activated when needed with the non-dominant hand.

Force Science News made repeated efforts to reach someone at SureFire to comment on the switch issue. The firm's public relation's manager replied by email to a voice-mail message that he was "bouncing around the country" and could "not promise phone time" to talk about the grip assembly. At his request, questions were submitted by FSN via email, but at this writing, nearly a week later, no response has been received. Phone messages directed to the company's chief engineer were not returned.

The 2 known unintentional shootings involving the grip mechanism occurred in Plano (TX) and New York City.

In Plano, an undercover sergeant fired his .40-cal. pistol during a drug sting last October in a fast-food parking lot. In a written statement, he said, "I never intended to have my finger on the trigger. I was attempting to squeeze the light mechanism [on a SureFire X300] when my weapon fired and the suspect fell to the ground," mortally wounded.

The New York shooting occurred last January during a drug raid in an apartment building. The first detective through the door of the targeted unit fired his 9mm semi-auto and struck the 76-year-old father of the suspect being hunted, wounding him in the abdomen. A police official was quoted as saying that the gun discharged as the detective "tried to adjust a [SureFire X300] flashlight attached to it."

At that time, SureFire's vice president of marketing told reporters, "Our product has been proven safe. Used in a safe manner, it doesn't lead to accidents. It prevents misidentification and saves police lives."

Lawsuits have been filed in both shootings.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 5:57:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
No.

Having one on the gun doesn't mean you can't still use a handheld in conjunction with it.

Train.   How.   To.   Use.   It.


+1 on this comment. LIght on your handgun does not replace handheld.  Tactics are important, and if you use your light on your handgun, use it in short bursts, and keep moving.  Don't use it like a flashlight searching around the house.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 8:01:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2011 8:04:58 PM EDT by Rotors-R-Cool]
Originally Posted By Huskytaio:
Tactics are important, and if you use your light on your handgun, use it in short bursts, and keep moving.  Don't use it like a flashlight searching around the house.


This.  A weapon light is not a search light.  Think sniper.  If you give a report, relocate.  However, if you are going to use a handheld to search, you might as well use the weapon light.  I don't know what people are talking about with the "muzzling what you're lighting up".  My X300 gives off plenty of spill light to safely search with.
Link Posted: 4/27/2011 8:14:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wetworks44:
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Seen a few older Glocks (gen 1 iirc) not function with a light on them.


Never seen a Gen 1 with a tac light on it.


First gen to have a light rail added to the mold.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 2:08:25 AM EDT
People shoot at the light, making a weapon light a disadvantage in no light situation your an easier target for incoming.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 2:20:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GunDisaster:
My home defense pistol has a flashlight on it mainly since it's just easier to grab the gun off the nightstand and turn the light on instead of fumbling around for a separate flashlight. My conceal carry guns don't have lights on them to conceal them easier, I carry a separate light in my pocket. Also sometimes I just need a light and don't want to draw my gun to use it in public ha.


This for me too.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 2:57:36 AM EDT
Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Link Posted: 4/28/2011 4:17:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Lots of WTF in here.  


You noticed that too?


Backing out. This thread is terminal.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 6:28:44 AM EDT
Thanks for the comments/experience peeps. I have a lot to consider and think about now lol. As for now I have a Streamlight TLR-1s, with the rocker switch that is activates by my thumb, so I think that unintentional discharges from the weapon will be negligable, although I do appreciate the info as it is definitely something to watch out for and see if I am doing anything in my training that can help me avoid accidental discharges. One thought though, what is the chance of someone firing at at light? I understand the idea and it makes total sense, however if I was a bad guy, and someone hit me with a a strobing light it would be extremely disorienting and I'm not so sure I would be able to have the wit/where-with-all to fire in that direction without getting shot at first. The firearm setup in question is mainly for a an HD/night stand gun if that helps.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 7:06:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Originally Posted By Wetworks44:
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Seen a few older Glocks (gen 1 iirc) not function with a light on them.


Never seen a Gen 1 with a tac light on it.


First gen to have a light rail added to the mold.



  Noooo.

Link Posted: 4/28/2011 7:38:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Huskytaio:
Tactics are important, and if you use your light on your handgun, use it in short bursts, and keep moving.  Don't use it like a flashlight searching around the house.



So don't use the flashlight like a flashlight? Is that what you're saying?
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 7:51:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2011 1:11:28 PM EDT by thedoctors308]
...
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 8:39:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2011 8:40:13 AM EDT by 45stops-em-quick]
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Originally Posted By Wetworks44:
Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Seen a few older Glocks (gen 1 iirc) not function with a light on them.


Never seen a Gen 1 with a tac light on it.


First gen to have a light rail added to the mold.


The first gen with a rail molded into the frame of a Glock was the Gen 3.  There were/are known problems with the Gen 3 G22's when a light is mounted to the rail.  The Gen 4 may or may not have completely solved this, but it appears to have.

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 1:53:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By phideaux_2003:
Originally Posted By Huskytaio:
Tactics are important, and if you use your light on your handgun, use it in short bursts, and keep moving.  Don't use it like a flashlight searching around the house.



So don't use the flashlight like a flashlight? Is that what you're saying?


It is a weaponslight, not a flashlight.
Anybody who thinks that a weaponslight is a bad idea has never tried to choose between not being able to ID a target or play fiddlefuck with a gun in one hand and a light in the other on a raid, felony car stop, building search, or footchase.


Wrong. Blanket statements like this do not lend to credibility. The OP asked for downsides. Based on this thread there are a few. It's up to the OP to determine if he wants to "fiddlefuck" with his light or if he simply wants to train to use it appropriately. Just like a weapons mounted light, it requires training to use a two handed set up. Don't condemn something just because it doesn't work for you.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:00:31 PM EDT
I use one. Carry a handheld too. RCS Phantom IWB. I use Comptac clips with it. I'm full sized so its not a problem for me. Shoot USPSA with the same gun just move it OWB for shoot day. I don't use it to check my tire pressure or get the mail.
.
The reason I went with this setup when I made my last CCW change was my kids. If I have to I can operate the gun and light with one hand while holding a child. I realize that is breaking the rules but I practice it and would only do it under an extreme circumstance.
.
Like alot of these things it comes down to compromise. What firepower versus comfort. For me this is not too much. For sure it took awhile to get used to. Its heavier, but also has WAY less muzzle flip. And a good belt pretty well negates that. As far as making you a target any light will do that. You can cross your wrists, hold it by your cheek, hold it above your head, whatever. Any light is going to make you a target. You have to be sure of what you are shooting though. Its the price that has to be paid for being one of the good guys.
.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 12:19:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cordovamx:
I can't think of any reason to NOT have a tac-light on the front of a handgun, aside from finding a dang holster to fit the gun Can you guys think of any reason why a tac-light on a handgun may have disadvantages? What are the advantages of having a hand-held light and using the cross-wrist technique? Thanks in advance


IMO, a quality tac light on a home handgun is a good thing. Just as having a second quality handheld light is. Regardless, you'll always have a light with the gun if it's mounted to it.

The whole just "gives criminal a place to aim" is dumb IMO. If you are holdinig the handheld light at your head you have a target from any angle. If your are using the "cross method" it's the same as the rail mounted light. We can all imagine scenarios that suit our agenda.

My tac light lights the room at low ready, or at the very least plenty for me to see well enough to decide if I need to direct my light/muzzle to it. Others do too. So, the whole "I don't want to point the gun at innocents" is silly too IMO.

And, a free hand can only be a good thing.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:51:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Lots of WTF in here.  


You noticed that too?


Backing out. This thread is terminal.


please enlighten us
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 3:18:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Natron11:
please enlighten us


This thread has it all - just about every ridiculous internet rumor about lights that can be easily dispelled with some professional training or even just a little common sense.

"A light just gives the bad guy something to shoot at."   Oh shit, what are you going to do in the daytime when he can see you anyway?  At least at night you have the potential advantage of blinding the bad guy(s) for a split second with your light.  Not to mention the fact that using a proper search technique mitigates the "target" effect a light can have.

"A weaponlight makes you point your gun at everything."  So what?  In a SD or HD situation you play by the big boy rules.  Your finger should be off the trigger, so you're not going to automatically kill everything you light up.  Not to mention the fact that a decent weaponlight throws out enough illumination that you don't have to point your weapon directly at something to illuminate it.

"You'll use it as a flashlight."  Sure, if you're a complete idiot maybe you'll pull out your weapon everytime you need a light for something.  Some people in here seem to think that carrying a weaponlight means that you can't possibly carry a handheld light as well.  (Many of us do just that.)  

"I don't need a light, I know every inch of my house."  Good for you.  I'm glad you're so switched on that you can awaken from a deep sleep, adrenaline pumping, and navigate your house perfectly in complete darkness.  I'm glad nothing ever gets left out for you to trip on.  So what happens when you encounter the bad guy....

"I don't need a light to ID my targets, I live alone."  Enjoy explaining that one to a jury after you shoot at a shape in your house.  I'm sure they'll buy into your "anyone in my house must be trying to kill me" rationalization.

"Handheld lights are better."  They are definitely useful, but guess what, they're more difficult to use than a weaponlight.  Especially when you're using one hand to gather the kids, call 911, etc.  Not saying handhelds don't have their place, but to discount the usefullness of a weaponlight shows willful ingorance.


It goes on and on - those were just examples of the types of bad info in this thread so far.  A couple people get it, but it's scary how many don't.  Not directing this at anyone in particular, but damn guys, really?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 5:18:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By Natron11:
please enlighten us


This thread has it all - just about every ridiculous internet rumor about lights that can be easily dispelled with some professional training or even just a little common sense.

"A light just gives the bad guy something to shoot at."   Oh shit, what are you going to do in the daytime when he can see you anyway?  At least at night you have the potential advantage of blinding the bad guy(s) for a split second with your light.  Not to mention the fact that using a proper search technique mitigates the "target" effect a light can have.

"A weaponlight makes you point your gun at everything."  So what?  In a SD or HD situation you play by the big boy rules.  Your finger should be off the trigger, so you're not going to automatically kill everything you light up.  Not to mention the fact that a decent weaponlight throws out enough illumination that you don't have to point your weapon directly at something to illuminate it.

"You'll use it as a flashlight."  Sure, if you're a complete idiot maybe you'll pull out your weapon everytime you need a light for something.  Some people in here seem to think that carrying a weaponlight means that you can't possibly carry a handheld light as well.  (Many of us do just that.)  

"I don't need a light, I know every inch of my house."  Good for you.  I'm glad you're so switched on that you can awaken from a deep sleep, adrenaline pumping, and navigate your house perfectly in complete darkness.  I'm glad nothing ever gets left out for you to trip on.  So what happens when you encounter the bad guy....

"I don't need a light to ID my targets, I live alone."  Enjoy explaining that one to a jury after you shoot at a shape in your house.  I'm sure they'll buy into your "anyone in my house must be trying to kill me" rationalization.

"Handheld lights are better."  They are definitely useful, but guess what, they're more difficult to use than a weaponlight.  Especially when you're using one hand to gather the kids, call 911, etc.  Not saying handhelds don't have their place, but to discount the usefullness of a weaponlight shows willful ingorance.


It goes on and on - those were just examples of the types of bad info in this thread so far.  A couple people get it, but it's scary how many don't.  Not directing this at anyone in particular, but damn guys, really?


Lots of good ponts there. Let me eleborate a bit on the whole mounted light thing. Mounted lights are bad if you don't want to give your position away. If you're searching for a target you should be strobing the light on and off. Hit the light, move to a different position. This makes it hard on the bad guy to fire on your position based on your light. Mounted lights are bad if they're the only light you're carrying. You need a flashlight and a weapon light. Not either, both. Mounted lights are good if you're on a warrant team or are performing felony takedowns like drug raids or other operations where there is a lot of activity. You will probably need a free hand for flex cuffs, and having a light on your pistol won't really give your position away when you're one of 30 or so LEO's busting down a door.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:34:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By Natron11:
please enlighten us


This thread has it all - just about every ridiculous internet rumor about lights that can be easily dispelled with some professional training or even just a little common sense.

"A light just gives the bad guy something to shoot at."   Oh shit, what are you going to do in the daytime when he can see you anyway?  At least at night you have the potential advantage of blinding the bad guy(s) for a split second with your light.  Not to mention the fact that using a proper search technique mitigates the "target" effect a light can have.

"A weaponlight makes you point your gun at everything."  So what?  In a SD or HD situation you play by the big boy rules.  Your finger should be off the trigger, so you're not going to automatically kill everything you light up.  Not to mention the fact that a decent weaponlight throws out enough illumination that you don't have to point your weapon directly at something to illuminate it.

"You'll use it as a flashlight."  Sure, if you're a complete idiot maybe you'll pull out your weapon everytime you need a light for something.  Some people in here seem to think that carrying a weaponlight means that you can't possibly carry a handheld light as well.  (Many of us do just that.)  

"I don't need a light, I know every inch of my house."  Good for you.  I'm glad you're so switched on that you can awaken from a deep sleep, adrenaline pumping, and navigate your house perfectly in complete darkness.  I'm glad nothing ever gets left out for you to trip on.  So what happens when you encounter the bad guy....

"I don't need a light to ID my targets, I live alone."  Enjoy explaining that one to a jury after you shoot at a shape in your house.  I'm sure they'll buy into your "anyone in my house must be trying to kill me" rationalization.

"Handheld lights are better."  They are definitely useful, but guess what, they're more difficult to use than a weaponlight.  Especially when you're using one hand to gather the kids, call 911, etc.  Not saying handhelds don't have their place, but to discount the usefullness of a weaponlight shows willful ingorance.


It goes on and on - those were just examples of the types of bad info in this thread so far.  A couple people get it, but it's scary how many don't.  Not directing this at anyone in particular, but damn guys, really?


Wow, there is a lot of WTF in this post. Not to basically make your point about this topic being controversial, but there is some real crapola here...

Play by the big boy rules? What is the NUMBER ONE rule of fire arms? Do. Not. Point. Your. Gun. At. Anything. You. Do. Not. Intend. To. Destroy.

Period. When one thinks himself above the rules, he has failed. What kind of mall ninja doesn't know this?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:44:31 PM EDT
What a coincidence as a couple of days ago I addressed this topic on video.  

Again proper low light training will take care of a lot of the negatives, however the weapon mounted light is only a supplement or another option to a handheld.  Both serve very good purposes on each out perform the other for certain tasks.  Being able to know how, when and why to deploy each is key.

I do not talk much about techniques and tactics in the below video as I chose not to, however since I teach a low light combat course I get a lot of questions on this topic and thought I would share some of my thoughts.  Again I do not go in depth on tactics or techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T80PDFNU1Y
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:59:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By phideaux_2003:
Wow, there is a lot of WTF in this post. Not to basically make your point about this topic being controversial, but there is some real crapola here...

Play by the big boy rules? What is the NUMBER ONE rule of fire arms? Do. Not. Point. Your. Gun. At. Anything. You. Do. Not. Intend. To. Destroy.

Period. When one thinks himself above the rules, he has failed. What kind of mall ninja doesn't know this?


Not really.  I guess if you have to clear your house you're going to keep your weapon in the "Charlies Angels" pose?  
Mall ninja?  Lol.  Why don't you tell everyone what formal instruction you've recieved and/or what real world experience you have relating to this thread?  

I'm guessing none.  

In one of your above posts you said that *based on this thread there are some downsides to having a weaponlight mounted.*  Again, this thread is full of internet rumors which are in contrast to what the few posters in this thread who actually know what they're talking about are saying.

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 7:04:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Lots of good ponts there. Let me eleborate a bit on the whole mounted light thing.Mounted lights are bad if you don't want to give your position away. If you're searching for a target you should be strobing the light on and off. Hit the light, move to a different position. This makes it hard on the bad guy to fire on your position based on your light. Mounted lights are bad if they're the only light you're carrying. You need a flashlight and a weapon light. Not either, both. Mounted lights are good if you're on a warrant team or are performing felony takedowns like drug raids or other operations where there is a lot of activity. You will probably need a free hand for flex cuffs, and having a light on your pistol won't really give your position away when you're one of 30 or so LEO's busting down a door.


You're right, but you understand that you can do this with a weaponlight, right?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 7:17:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Lots of good ponts there. Let me eleborate a bit on the whole mounted light thing.Mounted lights are bad if you don't want to give your position away. If you're searching for a target you should be strobing the light on and off. Hit the light, move to a different position. This makes it hard on the bad guy to fire on your position based on your light. Mounted lights are bad if they're the only light you're carrying. You need a flashlight and a weapon light. Not either, both. Mounted lights are good if you're on a warrant team or are performing felony takedowns like drug raids or other operations where there is a lot of activity. You will probably need a free hand for flex cuffs, and having a light on your pistol won't really give your position away when you're one of 30 or so LEO's busting down a door.


You're right, but you understand that you can do this with a weaponlight, right?


Maybe I should hve been a little clearer. With a handheld light I can create standoff by not holding the light in tight with my pistol. With a weapon (rifle of pistol) mounted light you don't generally get that option. The tactic is strobe, move, strobe, move....
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 7:23:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Lots of good ponts there. Let me eleborate a bit on the whole mounted light thing.Mounted lights are bad if you don't want to give your position away. If you're searching for a target you should be strobing the light on and off. Hit the light, move to a different position. This makes it hard on the bad guy to fire on your position based on your light. Mounted lights are bad if they're the only light you're carrying. You need a flashlight and a weapon light. Not either, both. Mounted lights are good if you're on a warrant team or are performing felony takedowns like drug raids or other operations where there is a lot of activity. You will probably need a free hand for flex cuffs, and having a light on your pistol won't really give your position away when you're one of 30 or so LEO's busting down a door.


You're right, but you understand that you can do this with a weaponlight, right?


Maybe I should hve been a little clearer. With a handheld light I can create standoff by not holding the light in tight with my pistol. With a weapon (rifle of pistol) mounted light you don't generally get that option. The tactic is strobe, move, strobe, move....


I figured you knew that, just checkin.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 10:12:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Lots of WTF in here.  


This.The only reason not to is ease of carry.On a home defense piece its a must have.For those of you saying you will be pointing a gun at what your looking at so what I"ve got a loaded weapon in my hands for a reason.Something made me grabe A LOADED DEADLY WEAPON I want to be able to see my target to effectivley engage it.Any thing in my house over 4'5'' in my hose at night will be shot.Why because im the only person in my house taller than that.That means it's a BAD GUY.He is not there to sell me cookies.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 11:53:24 AM EDT
Not that I have to justify myself to anyone here when I say that some techniques don't work for everyone, but I've taken a couple of defense of home and lowlight tactics courses on the private side and I haven't claimed to know everything even one time. All I said was that with a weapons mounted light you by it's very nature have to point your weapon at something that you may not be willing to destroy. The generic question was posed to the board. It didn't specify weapons mounted lights for a SWAT team, it didn't specify weapons mounted lights for the Navy Seals and it didn't specify weapons mounted lights for Mall Ninjas. You seem to have the idea that it's ok to end up with a gun pointed at your 15 year old son sneaking back into the house at 4am. Great. Enjoy your weapons mounted light. I don't think that is acceptable. I don't point my weapons at anything I don't intend to destroy. If you had an ounce of sense in your skull you'd have picked up on that from my posts.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 11:56:55 AM EDT
Using a light mounted or unmounted and going out to find someone who wants to kill you is a great way to end up dead.  Using one the wrong way is a great way to end up dead faster.

So please, stop telling me my weapon mounted light is going to get me killed, and go practice shooting one handed with a light 3 feet away from your face at a small target in the dark, and check back here and let us know how you do.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 11:57:11 AM EDT
And yes, lights do give your position away regardless as to whether they are mounted or not.

Imagine if you can, you're a POS criminal hiding out in an abandoned movie theater. Some Mall Ninja asshole comes in after you pulsing and striving his weapons mounted light. Now, obviously, since he's a mall ninja, he's invincible, but to the POS criminal in the balcony, he can see his every freakin' move.

You're wrong dude.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 12:13:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Using a light mounted or unmounted and going out to find someone who wants to kill you is a great way to end up dead.  Using one the wrong way is a great way to end up dead.


This is very correct.
Link Posted: 5/1/2011 7:12:36 PM EDT
Let me put it this way a t home most times my kidswind up in bed with me.Something goes bang in the night OH SHIT I grab my gun(with light)said crack head comes in the room.Light goes on so I can see the target BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG.How did give away my postion?I'm talking about using alight at home .Not as a LEO.If you are better get some low light traing.So you are not walking around with your weapon light on like its a flashlight.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 6:54:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2011 6:55:49 AM EDT by phideaux_2003]
That's great. YOU didn't telegraph your position. If I have kids asleep in the room down the hall or upstairs or on the other side of the house I'm going to try and get to them to make my stand. Now, darkness is my friend and knowing the layout of my own house is my biggest advantage but if I use my light at all, the man in my house (which is pitch black) WILL see the beam of white light I throw. That would be telegraphing my position.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 7:59:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
No.

Having one on the gun doesn't mean you can't still use a handheld in conjunction with it.

Train.   How.   To.   Use.   It.


Exactly!  I have one on my HD gun.  If I want to use it, I can. If I don't, I won't.  Having it there does nothing bad... if you don't want or need it in a given situation, don't turn it on.
Link Posted: 5/2/2011 8:45:32 PM EDT
let me add another question to the discussion.  

Does anyone think it is a significant advantage to have a light/laser combo on a weapon (like a TLR-2) for a HD/night stand gun over just a light?  not necessarily for aiming purposes of the laser but for the possibility of it being a deterrent, the scare factor of the bad guy seeing the laser on his chest.

I'm in the process of buying a light for my nightstand gun, i have night sites and a stand alone sure fire, but want to have a light on the gun so i can quickly grab one thing and have both gun and light, just curious if ppl think it is worth it to spend more money to get say the TLR-2 over the TLR-1.
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