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Posted: 1/31/2012 4:35:57 AM EDT
9mm:  Felt recoil, magazine capacity, cheap.
.40 S&W:  Bridges the gap between 9mm and .45, is the “day walker” of CCW.
.45 ACP:  ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense.

So, is .40 the best multi-purpose round out there for competition and carry/defense?  
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 5:09:53 AM EDT
[#1]
The 10mm can do anything the .40 smith can and more.  You can get .40 S&W powered loads or full-blast 10mm loads approaching .41 mag power.  Only drawback is availability and slightly higher cost, but if you own a 10mm, you should be reloading anyway  Not to mention the fact that a carbine-length barrel in 10mm ups the power even more, making it very effective for small/medium game.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 5:16:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Shot placement.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 6:04:04 AM EDT
[#3]
pie....and ice cream
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 6:27:00 AM EDT
[#4]
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 6:28:46 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Shot placement.


Under stress against a moving target while you are moving...

Link Posted: 1/31/2012 6:35:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 6:48:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Shot placement.


Under stress against a moving target while you are moving...



THank you there is more than just me that understand this

To answer your question 10mm any day of the week. Great hunting caliber great self defense round... now only if they had more selection.... good thing i reload
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:06:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.


There isn't a huge difference in the terminal performance of .45 and other pistol rounds suitable for duty use.

For my use, 9mm makes sense. If I lived in an area with black bears and was still a cop, .40 would make sense for improved penetration through barriers like auto glass.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:06:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Whatever the fuck goes BANG. Learn to run and gun, a corpse won't be anymore impressed or dead when shot to death with any of those calibers. Pick your favorite, learn to use the damn thing.

And this 10mm is king bullshit, save that for the bards to sing about. If you're gunnin' with a 10 and the bad guy is gunnin' with a 38 and he gets the drop on you, your 10mm isn't going to mean dick, hot flying lead is hot flying lead. ANY of those calibers will do the job as a "general all around defense round".

As I read about some snot nosed kid blowing away a neighbor with a .22....
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:07:30 AM EDT
[#10]
Lets say it early in the thread and often...

Pistols are horse shit man stoppers.  When comparing pistol ballistics of modern bullets in various calibers it becomes academic.

Shot placement is #1.  Caliber is a DISTANT second.

How many stories of MULTIPLE hits from handguns fail to stop a BG?  Then how many stories of single or two rifle caliber shots stop the BG?

Pistols are only good to carry all day concealed.  Otherwise, rifle or shotgun.

Its a fun discussion, but is isn't really worth the time...despite the fact I am here now spending time!
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:11:16 AM EDT
[#11]
If you HAD to press me to choose ONE, give me a shotgun that shoots semi-trucks out of the barrel and we're good to go.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:42:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:53:36 AM EDT
[#13]
What's this? Naysayers.  Well, we'd all prefer to sling a long gun everywhere we go, but I think choosing something a little more discreet than this to pimp around town with...

http://vps5530.inmotionhosting.com/~gunsma5/guns/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/np76.jpg

means getting back to the topic at hand.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 7:58:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.



http://www.gothamsurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/bullet-holes.jpg
http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:02:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.



http://www.gothamsurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/bullet-holes.jpg
http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


You do realize that those entry/exit holes are drawings, and that the temporary cavity responsible for those nice red clowds in gelatin is gone after a few milliseconds in tissue?
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:12:49 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Shot placement.


Quoted for truthiness.

Generally, there is little difference between the service calibers in terms of penetration and tissue disruption, but there is some difference. For many people the difference is small enough not to care about it. When you compare .357 mag and 10mm to typical service cartridges you will see a marked difference. Shot placement is still key but the amount of tissue disruption is significantly greater than 9mm, .40, and .45.  Of course, that extra power comes at the price of increased recoil.

As for the OP's actual question, 10mm is clearly the most versatile. None of the other listed cartridges come even close to the array of bullet weights and velocity.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:16:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
9mm:  Felt recoil, magazine capacity, cheap.
.40 S&W:  Bridges the gap between 9mm and .45, is the “day walker” of CCW.
.45 ACP:  ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense.

So, is .40 the best multi-purpose round out there for competition and carry/defense?  


Since neither .45 or .40 is superior to 9mm in any way, why would you ask if .40 is better?
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:18:20 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.


You REALLY need some education. Ignorance like this should be left in GD.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:19:44 AM EDT
[#19]
I don't think the .40 does anything better than any other service round in common usage. It does reduce mag capacit more though. But thats hardly a plus.

10mm would be the most versatile IMHO. It can be down loaded to .40 levels for ease of use in a self defense situation, or it can be loaded into the nuclear zone for a woods gun. Its got all the pro's of the .357 Magnum, and it has capacity.

I need to get a damned 10.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:20:30 AM EDT
[#20]


The first image appears to be non-scientific drivel (entry/exit holes).

The second image actually illustrates that there is very little difference between the calibers given a modern JHP design. They all penetrate past the 12" FBI minimum. You are looking at very small difference.
Pick something you can shoot well, practice often and you'll be golden whether you chose 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:29:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
9mm:  Felt recoil, magazine capacity, cheap.
.40 S&W:  Bridges the gap between 9mm and .45, is the “day walker” of CCW.
.45 ACP:  ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense.

So, is .40 the best multi-purpose round out there for competition and carry/defense?  


Since neither .45 or .40 is superior to 9mm in any way, why would you ask if .40 is better?


Actually, that's not true, either. The differences in performance aren't huge, which is why this line of reasoning is repeated so often around here, but there are differences in temporary and permanent wound cavity, penetration, and performance against hard obstacles. Whether or not the difference is great enough to justify increased expense, increased recoil, and reduced capacity as well as slower follow up shots is something you have to decide for yourself. But to say there is nothing AT ALL about the .40 or .45 that is superior to the 9mm is foolish, especially when your post comes so quickly after the gel test we've all seen a dozen times.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:32:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:


The first image appears to be non-scientific drivel (entry/exit holes).

The second image actually illustrates that there is very little difference between the calibers given a modern JHP design. They all penetrate past the 12" FBI minimum. You are looking at very small difference.
Pick something you can shoot well, practice often and you'll be golden whether you chose 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.


Modern designs are much better at expanding after encountering a windshield, drywall, or thick clothing, but one of the common complaints leveled against the smaller diameter cartridges is that they lose A LOT of performance if they fail to expand.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 8:34:30 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
9mm:  Felt recoil, magazine capacity, cheap.
.40 S&W:  Bridges the gap between 9mm and .45, is the “day walker” of CCW.
.45 ACP:  ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense.

So, is .40 the best multi-purpose round out there for competition and carry/defense?  


Since neither .45 or .40 is superior to 9mm in any way, why would you ask if .40 is better?


That's why we ask questions right? All knowing folks best leave their egos at home....
I'd love to spend hours testing countless scenarios/barrel lengths/grain type and count/projectiles/etc., but then I wouldn't have to ask you fine folks your opinion.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_9mm_115gr_TAC-XP.pdf
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.40_140gr_TAC-XP.pdf
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.45ACP_160gr_TAC-XP.pdf

And not quite in every way I guess.  Cut a guy some slack, can't blame me for asking.  Thanks for the feedback though.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 9:31:56 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.



http://www.gothamsurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/bullet-holes.jpg
http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


Ummm..............the "entry holes" for .380 appear smaller than those for 9mm.

Thats odd considering they are identical in diameter and only .002 different than the .357 diameter.

Fanboy artwork never fails to impress.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 12:46:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
9mm:  Felt recoil, magazine capacity, cheap.
.40 S&W:  Bridges the gap between 9mm and .45, is the “day walker” of CCW.
.45 ACP:  ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense.

So, is .40 the best multi-purpose round out there for competition and carry/defense?  


Since neither .45 or .40 is superior to 9mm in any way, why would you ask if .40 is better?


Actually, that's not true, either. The differences in performance aren't huge, which is why this line of reasoning is repeated so often around here, but there are differences in temporary and permanent wound cavity, penetration, and performance against hard obstacles. Whether or not the difference is great enough to justify increased expense, increased recoil, and reduced capacity as well as slower follow up shots is something you have to decide for yourself. But to say there is nothing AT ALL about the .40 or .45 that is superior to the 9mm is foolish, especially when your post comes so quickly after the gel test we've all seen a dozen times.


I don't worry about gel tests. I worry about the real world.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 1:25:13 PM EDT
[#26]
I carry .45 but 9mm is now the best all around cartridge for handguns with modern hallow point technology sans hornady which seems to be taking steps backward as of recent years.
Link Posted: 1/31/2012 1:54:52 PM EDT
[#27]
9mm .

espically for younger shooters
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 3:49:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
9mm .

espically for younger shooters


And older, wiser shooters who have seen through the phony baloney "stopping power" BS and buy on the knowledge of similar lethality with higher capacity and a lower price.
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 4:31:12 AM EDT
[#29]
I voted 9mm because I like to shoot a lot.

As much as I shoot each year ...

I can buy a new gun each year just on the amount of money I save by buying 9mm instead of .40 or .45

Link Posted: 2/1/2012 4:42:11 AM EDT
[#30]
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Sledgehammer - dear God.................
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 12:10:14 PM EDT
[#31]
I feel just as safe with a 9mm as I do 40 or 45
Ive carried them all at one time or another.

Right now its 40sw 180s
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 12:24:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Lets say it early in the thread and often...

Pistols are horse shit man stoppers.  When comparing pistol ballistics of modern bullets in various calibers it becomes academic.

Shot placement is #1.  Caliber is a DISTANT second.

How many stories of MULTIPLE hits from handguns fail to stop a BG?  Then how many stories of single or two rifle caliber shots stop the BG?

Pistols are only good to carry all day concealed.  Otherwise, rifle or shotgun.

Its a fun discussion, but is isn't really worth the time...despite the fact I am here now spending time!


This.

Go back reread it, then reread it again.

Link Posted: 2/1/2012 1:16:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Pretty much every study on this topic that involves modern self defense handgun ammunition of sufficient velocity / weight to reach 12" or more of penetration into a vital area of a threat indicates that

1.) Placement is issue number one.

2.) CAPACITY trumps CALIBER, every time.

So, get the pistol that holds the most bullets that meets the above criteria.

Hence , I voted 9mm, specifically Glock 19.
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 1:23:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Never have cared for .40
To me, it was a solution to a problem that wasn't there. IMO, the best compromise multi purpose round is the 9mm It's cheap, easy to shoot and hollow point rounds have just been getting better and better.

For the most part, I like big calibers. To me, the .45acp is the ideal close quarters pistol round because it's slow and, TO ME, has less felt recoil than the .40 That said, I carry both 9mm and .45 but I prefer .45
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 3:07:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.


You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 3:24:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.


You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise



+1 Don't step in the bullshit.
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 4:02:29 PM EDT
[#37]
In before the term "energy dump" is used.
Link Posted: 2/1/2012 6:02:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Never have cared for .40
To me, it was a solution to a problem that wasn't there. IMO, the best compromise multi purpose round is the 9mm It's cheap, easy to shoot and hollow point rounds have just been getting better and better.

For the most part, I like big calibers. To me, the .45acp is the ideal close quarters pistol round because it's slow and, TO ME, has less felt recoil than the .40 That said, I carry both 9mm and .45 but I prefer .45


X2. Exactly what he said. I can pick up either my Springfield Loaded with 9 185 gr DPX's or the M9 with 19 115 gr DPX's - shoot accurately with either one and feel decently armed with either one. Never had any use for .40 S&W. Dont like it. It just makes separating my brass a pain in the butt.

I love the .45 but I vote 9mm for the best all around handgun caliber. Funny how all those who bash the 9mm never volunteer to get shot center mass by one.............

If I know im going to a gunfight Im gonna try to grab the AR or the shotgun.

Link Posted: 2/1/2012 6:48:50 PM EDT
[#39]

I don't own anything in .40 and basically have zero interest in the caliber.  But, whether it has to do with ballistics or something else entirely, I've never really understood why the .40 isn't the "perfect blend" or happy medium between the 9mm and .45

Link Posted: 2/2/2012 7:03:30 AM EDT
[#40]
Interesting and timely thread, as I contemplate a new pistol purchase.

I'd love to get a Gen4 G21.  The ONLY thing stopping me is ammo cost.  I have a variety of 9mm's, a couple of .40's, and a few .45's.  I've never shot anyone, nor animals, so have no real world basis on performance across these rounds.  Lately, aside from my wife who loves her Sig P226 in 9mm, I've been thinking of standardizing on the .40.  I've been shooting the .40 enough lately, that I've become relatively comfortable with it in shooting it.  I used to find it very snappy and didn't enjoy shooting it.  I've found that some of the newer platforms (M&P, Gen4 G22/G23) for the .40 help make the .40 more controllable to shoot.

My main reason for going to the .40 is ammo cost.  I'm sure this seems counterintuitive to many, but looking at SG Ammo, you'll see some great deals on contract overruns on state of the art HP and practice ammo.  It's actually CHEAPER than 9mm in some instances.  Also, when Obama 1st got elected, it seemed .40 was considerably easier to find over 9mm and .45.

As far as performance, from what I've read from people who seem to know what they're talking about, 9mm performance in the latest HP designs have gotten considerably better, especially in 147gr offerings.  .45 has always been good, more'so with the latest HP designs.  The 180gr .40HP seems to be a great balance of capacity and barrier penetration.  I live in NJ w/ a 15rnd mag limit anyway.  For me, an M&P40 (15rnds) or Gen4 G23 (13 or 15rnd mags) seem ideal.  If I could find .45 at the same price savings as I could .40 contract overruns, I'd be going .45 w/out a 2nd thought, as it's my favorite round to shoot.  I do think that the .45 does "it" a little better than 9mm/.40.  Right now, for me, .40 seems to be the more practical choice.  I have no problems w/ 9mm, either.  Again, if I could find some great deals on 9mm, I'd be going that way.  For me, it's all about cost.  Whether it's a G19 or G23, the platform is the same, just a different caliber.

I just realized some of this sounds confusing. I could be very wrong in this, but I think of it this way....

9mm = Adequate performance
.40 = Adequate performance w/ better barrier penetration
.45 = Slightly better than adequate performance
Link Posted: 2/2/2012 10:07:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.


You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.
Link Posted: 2/2/2012 1:51:55 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.


So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing
Link Posted: 2/2/2012 4:12:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.


So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing

In what crazy parallel universe is going from .45 to .70 not expanding?
12 lbs at 2.35 has enough momentum to accelerate me (190 pounds) to a whopping 0.15 fps or 0.1 mph (approx. same momentum as 230 grains at 855 fps) . I'm pretty sure that won't knock me down, at least when I'm not asleep.
So can a .22 short.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but it seems like you're successfully trying to make a fool of yourself.
Link Posted: 2/2/2012 5:14:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.


So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing

In what crazy parallel universe is going from .45 to .70 not expanding?
12 lbs at 2.35 has enough momentum to accelerate me (190 pounds) to a whopping 0.15 fps or 0.1 mph (approx. same momentum as 230 grains at 855 fps) . I'm pretty sure that won't knock me down, at least when I'm not asleep.
So can a .22 short.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but it seems like you're successfully trying to make a fool of yourself.


Easy, be nice, life sucks without a little humor.
45acp with 185gr. with 616ft. or 835J ( don't even bring up the 45 super) delivered to the human body ie, knee's, feet, groin would in fact knock down a threat, how can anyone say other wise? With that energy, it would be like being hit with a baseball bat.
Even if the 45 doesn't expand its going to do more damage the the 9mm simply from the size.


Link Posted: 2/2/2012 7:53:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?

Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.

So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing

In what crazy parallel universe is going from .45 to .70 not expanding?
12 lbs at 2.35 has enough momentum to accelerate me (190 pounds) to a whopping 0.15 fps or 0.1 mph (approx. same momentum as 230 grains at 855 fps) . I'm pretty sure that won't knock me down, at least when I'm not asleep.
So can a .22 short.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but it seems like you're successfully trying to make a fool of yourself.

Easy, be nice, life sucks without a little humor.

45acp with 185gr. with 616ft. or 835J ( don't even bring up the 45 super) delivered to the human body ie, knee's, feet, groin would in fact knock down a threat, how can anyone say other wise?

With that energy, it would be like being hit with a baseball bat.

Even if the 45 doesn't expand its going to do more damage the the 9mm simply from the size.


Your "energy" arguments & baseball bat analogies aren't doing you any favors.

At the same time, the incessant ... ".45 is NOT, repeat, not - I'm telling you it's NOT, a death-ray of  death" ... argument from others has become equally tiresome, and ridiculous as well.

Link Posted: 2/2/2012 11:24:05 PM EDT
[#46]
19K, we talked about this a bit the other day, but im going to go ahead and repost this blurb i posted up roughly a year ago. It pretty much sums up caliber selection on ARFCOM. Here is something to consider, however. The FBI standard for ballistic testing is the Ultimate standard by which all calibers are judged here. Popular ARFCOM opinion is the 9mm is the king of the heap. Funny thing is, the people who established the standards by which calibers are judged,the FBI, concluded that 9mm wasn't going to cut it for them, and bypassed it in favor of the .40. Thats right man, the source of the statistics and atributes that everyone recites in support of the 9mm,The FBI, who devised the tests, implemented the standards, and performed the testing, concluded from that same testing that the 9mm is insufficient for their needs. This will surely piss some people off, but hey, the truth is the truth, so oh well. ANd lastly, this is what I posted about a year ago regarding ARFCOM caliber selection. Its as true now as it was then.































1. The holy grail is 147 Grain 9mm.




2. All rounds, no matter the velocity, diameter, mass, or construction, automatically perform the same or worse than the 147 grain 9mm.




3.ANY advantage in performance or effect a round may have over the 147 grain 9mm will automatically be discounted as "slight" or "insignificant"




4. All data will be manipulated, bent, and cherry picked to support the fact that the 147 Grain 9mm is the holy grail of ARFCOM.




5. Any data contrary to the superiority of the 147 Grain 9mm will be discounted as imperical or a small insignificant statistical sample




6. All data against the superority of the 147 grain 9mm that can't be immedietly discounted with one of the standard methods above, will immedietly be discounted as insignificant because it was not data created, compiled, and vetted through the ballistic expertise and warrior prowess of a Naval Reserve Dentist with big blocks of Jello.




7. If all arguments against any round other the 147 grain 9mm fails, revert to argument number 1.
Bottom line, caliber questions are better asked elsewhere. Unless you like the 147 grain 9mm. In that case, your difinetly in the right place.




 
Link Posted: 2/2/2012 11:34:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.


So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing

In what crazy parallel universe is going from .45 to .70 not expanding?
12 lbs at 2.35 has enough momentum to accelerate me (190 pounds) to a whopping 0.15 fps or 0.1 mph (approx. same momentum as 230 grains at 855 fps) . I'm pretty sure that won't knock me down, at least when I'm not asleep.
So can a .22 short.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but it seems like you're successfully trying to make a fool of yourself.


Easy, be nice, life sucks without a little humor.
45acp with 185gr. with 616ft. or 835J ( don't even bring up the 45 super) delivered to the human body ie, knee's, feet, groin would in fact knock down a threat, how can anyone say other wise? With that energy, it would be like being hit with a baseball bat.
Even if the 45 doesn't expand its going to do more damage the the 9mm simply from the size.

In an inelastic collision momentum is conserved, kinetic energy is not. That 185 gr .45 at 1,225 ft/s (Wikipedia, what a surprise) still only has enough to momentum to accelerate me to a little less than 0.12 mph, and enough energy to heat a glass of water by 1 Kelvin, if all that energy were completely converted to heat. Don't argue physics if you don't understand it.
Standing upright after being shot through the knee is a challenge because of pain, and because knees work best when no parts of it are destroyed, not because the momentum of a handgun bullet is nearly enough to physically "knock over" a grown man. If you don't believe the physics, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg#t=5m35s
That's many times the energy and not quite double the momentum of that 185 gr/1225 fps load you referred to at work. Knock-down = Hollywood.
Link Posted: 2/3/2012 12:19:58 AM EDT
[#48]


 
Link Posted: 2/3/2012 12:41:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Easy, be nice, life sucks without a little humor.
45acp with 185gr. with 616ft. or 835J ( don't even bring up the 45 super) delivered to the human body ie, knee's, feet, groin would in fact knock down a threat, how can anyone say other wise? With that energy, it would be like being hit with a baseball bat.
Even if the 45 doesn't expand its going to do more damage the the 9mm simply from the size.




You are completely and utterly clueless and should shut your mouth and learn instead of type and make yourself look like a child.
Link Posted: 2/3/2012 1:56:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
".45 ACP: ACP stops PCP every time, minimal over-penetration for home defense."

Every time?


Swing a 12 lbs sledge into someone's chest and they're going down no matter what they're on.  Dude from Green Mile on PCP, well, now you might have a problem.  Ok, so let's say almost most every time.

.45 ACP isn't a 12 lbs sledge, it's a 0.033 lbs bullet roughly the size of a finger tip, which pokes holes of according size through people. You're obviously a victim of the "knock down" myth.

Read these:
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

@topic: 10 mm hands down. If price and availability are also factors 9mm would be the wisest choice, but I reload both anyway.

You "OBVIOUSLY" dont know anything about ballistics.  If you really think a .45 round only produces a "finger tip size hole", then there is really no point trying to tell you otherwise

My index finger tip is .70" wide, that's not untypical for .45 hollow point expansion through clothing. So what are you going to tell me, that the holes are actually a bit larger than finger-sized? Swollen finger sized? One thing is sure: It doesn't knock people to the ground with the force of a sledgehammer (except that 12 lbs seldge is moving at a whopping 2.35 fps), it doesn't blow fist-sized holes in people and it isn't a death ray.


So, you saying that all hollow points don't expand in clothing?  which ones? all?
I  don't think I would want to be hit by a 12lbs seldge at 2.35FPS, would you? I think that would knock you down.
If a death ray can kill and destroy, I would say the .45acp can do the same thing

In what crazy parallel universe is going from .45 to .70 not expanding?
12 lbs at 2.35 has enough momentum to accelerate me (190 pounds) to a whopping 0.15 fps or 0.1 mph (approx. same momentum as 230 grains at 855 fps) . I'm pretty sure that won't knock me down, at least when I'm not asleep.
So can a .22 short.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but it seems like you're successfully trying to make a fool of yourself.


Easy, be nice, life sucks without a little humor.
45acp with 185gr. with 616ft. or 835J ( don't even bring up the 45 super) delivered to the human body ie, knee's, feet, groin would in fact knock down a threat, how can anyone say other wise? With that energy, it would be like being hit with a baseball bat.
Even if the 45 doesn't expand its going to do more damage the the 9mm simply from the size.

In an inelastic collision momentum is conserved, kinetic energy is not. That 185 gr .45 at 1,225 ft/s (Wikipedia, what a surprise) still only has enough to momentum to accelerate me to a little less than 0.12 mph, and enough energy to heat a glass of water by 1 Kelvin, if all that energy were completely converted to heat. Don't argue physics if you don't understand it.
Standing upright after being shot through the knee is a challenge because of pain, and because knees work best when no parts of it are destroyed, not because the momentum of a handgun bullet is nearly enough to physically "knock over" a grown man. If you don't believe the physics, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg#t=5m35s
That's many times the energy and not quite double the momentum of that 185 gr/1225 fps load you referred to at work. Knock-down = Hollywood.
Don't waste your time. Let them believe in what they want. Let them learn the hard way.

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