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Posted: 3/14/2006 2:15:38 PM EST
########## BEGIN SCENARIO DESCRIPTION #####################

Loudoun County, Virginia- Authorities are still trying to determine the motive behind a nearly four hour hostage situation Monday that ended with the suspect being fatally wounded.

Investigators have learned that the suspect, Aleksandrin Yordanov Bazhilov, 30, of Winchester was getting gas at the Exxon station in the 22400 block of Flagstaff Plaza in Ashburn around 4:40 PM. Bazhilov walked into the store to pay for his gas when there was confusion between the suspect and the cashier over the status of the gas pump. At one point the suspect appeared to become agitated and jumped over the counter and grabbed the female cashier. The suspect has no apparent ties to the victim or anyone in the store.

Another employee of the Exxon had walked out of the store just prior to the incident. At least two customers would flee the store believing it was a robbery in progress. An off-duty officer from the Pentagon Police Department was approaching the store at the time of the incident. He contacted authorities and alerted other customers who were approaching the store of the situation.

Personnel from the Sheriff’s Office Crisis Negotiations Unit, Sheriff’s Emergency Response Team (SERT), Criminal Investigations Division, Special Operations Division, Field Operations, and command staff responded to the scene. Personnel from the Virginia State Police also provided assistance at the scene including their SWAT team.

Members of the Sheriff’s Crisis Negotiations Unit began to attempt to contact the suspect using by calling the phone inside the store. The man repeatedly hung up the phone. Negotiators were able to briefly talk to the man who made statements threatening the life of the female cashier as well as his own.

Around 8:15 PM the suspect walked out for a second time however this time he was holding a pair of scissors to her neck. Deputies observed that the victim had blood on her shirt and injuries to her neck. Fearing further injury to the victim a member of the Sheriff’s Emergency Response Team (SERT) took action and discharged one round from his weapon. The SERT team member, Deputy First Class Brian Sayre has been placed on routine administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation. Sayre is a nearly 7 year veteran of the Sheriff’s Office and has been certified as SERT team member since 2001.

The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene. The female victim was transported to a local hospital. She had lacerations to her hand and neck that were considered non-life threatening.

The incident remains under investigation by the Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office.

################ END SCENARIO DESCRIPTION #############

So, let's say you're Joe Schmoe w/CHP in the gas station when the guy jumps the counter and holds the scissors to the cashiers throat. What do you? Do you leave given the opportunity to do so? What would you do in this true life scenario.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 3:25:28 PM EST
There is no right answer, you and everyone else would have forever to second-guess you decision no matter what it was. What does the state law say, can you waste the MFer to save her if your life isn't directly threatened by his actions? (Is his captive hot, is she available, do I have a chance with her?) That would have alot to do with my decision, what about being sued by the family after the fact for kiling the poor perpetrator and possibly losing everything you own?

Personally if I felt my life or the life of a friend or family member was threatened, yes I would use force. Depending on my level of training and if I felt that I wouldn't possibly shoot or injure a bystander, all of these things would be weighed into my decision, I might even scurry away and wet myself like a little girl if I thought the odds were stacked against me.

If the police were already on scene and looking to shoot something or someone, I would lay low and use the excuse that I didn't feel that it was in my best interest to try and intervene. They are armed proffesionals and know best right?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:07:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 6:09:29 PM EST by Graziani]
If he had scissors and knife, I would just bugger off and run away and call the police.

If he has a firearm, he's going down where he stands and I'll empty the mag until he is pronounced dead.

ETA: I would probably try to spray him with Fox Lab and beat the living s#$% out of him, and when the police arrive, I'll scream hysterically like a child and say I'm scared to death
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:34:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 4:35:18 AM EST by Camel]
I'd leave and call the police.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:38:38 AM EST
I agree with the Fox Labs comment. I keep one with me as well as my firearm. Spray then beatdown.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:42:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:47:02 AM EST
One method to deescalate a hostage crisis involves talking to the b/g, trying to "calm" the situation and see if there is something the b/g needs, such as more money, a car, etc., and all the while waiting until the moment of opportunity to resolve the conflict... um, nevermind, I'm not giving a class. Nothing to see here, move along.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:27:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
One method to deescalate a hostage crisis involves talking to the b/g, trying to "calm" the situation and see if there is something the b/g needs, such as more money, a car, etc., and all the while waiting until the moment of opportunity to resolve the conflict... um, nevermind, I'm not giving a class. Nothing to see here, move along.

Please continue....
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 4:29:23 PM EST
You have to decide if you believe she is in danger of death or serious injury. If she is you don't leave, you talk until you can act.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 12:39:12 PM EST
This is more of a question of ethics. Do you help or not.

What help can you provide and how far to take it.

Me I would like to think if I were in the store at the time I would intervene.
First by talking, if he did not respond to that then I may draw on him if he is cutting the captive and she was or begins to bleed. Then express I do not want to cause him or anyone harm but if he continues to cut her I will have to act.

The LEO’S I hope would not think I was the BG but it sounds like they were in some minor communication. I would yell out loud who I was and what the situation was.
I would anticipate I would be dragged out and handcuffed until the situation was sorted out as well.

That’s what I think I would like do. However never being in a situation like this at all I don’t know the reality of what my actions would be.

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 1:30:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 1:31:31 PM EST by VBC]
If I had a Sig 226 and he was within 15 yards and I had a clean shot to his head I would take it.

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:21:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 5:25:14 PM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 9:16:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 9:16:42 PM EST by kingme22]
In my state you can take him out if you determine someones life is in immanant danger. I say if you have the chance and your 99% sure take it.

I lived in another country for a while and had an experience that formed my belief on this.
I was half asleep (eyes closed) in a chair in my kitchen, listening to music with headphones on. The chair was a sofa type with no legs ( hard to get out of ) I felt someone grab my throat, I look up and some dude has my throat in his left hand and a 12" kitchen knife in his right hand above my head. Dude is screaming something in Japanese that I dont understand and each time I try and move a bit he threatens by coming down with the knife and just stopping at my base of my head. All ( I felt ) like I could do is brace my right foot agianst the wall next to the chair and try to push us both over.
One of my room mates came out of his room down the hall, shit his pants, then tried to talk to the psyco. He spoke Japanese pretty well and tried to calm him down. This went on for probebly 30 seconds and all of a sudden he lets me go and takes off after him. I stand up and go behind our big kitchen table. He turns back to me, I flip on its side,throw it at him and and take off out the door. He chases me but when I get out side the cops are there and he comes out and throws the knife in the bushes.
Long story, I know but my point is when I was in the chair my back was to one of those paper sliding doors and another roomate was in there with a couple bats all it would have taken is one good swing but even better a small book shelf he could have picked up and run him over with. He could see everything going down but didnt dare act. He ran out the back door.
I guess you could say Im glad he didnt act because everything turned out ok but I got lucky.
The psyco went back to the hospital, turns out a year earlier he doused himself and alot of the 3rd floor in gasoline and was threatening to light it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 3:52:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2006 6:33:07 AM EST by machaira]
hard to say not seeing everything in its entirety. here, you can use force to stop such an act in defense of yourself and others. the law states you don't have the "right to kill" but you have the right to use deadly force to resist such an attack on you. or others in "theory".

i am not a LEO so can't necessarily insert myself into situations - but its a judgement call in this case. if he is cutting her and beating her, i think i would have to act to end the situation. i may wind up in court on charges or being sued by his family. its a possiblity. but could i live knowing i sat by and watched her be killed or maimed when i could have possibly prevented it?

oh yeah...if i pull my CCW, i will use it. not gonna talk or threaten or any such negotiation. the time for that is past if i draw. its a last resort. someone told me once that if your only tool is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. the danger as a civilian is overreacting and lack of control. unfortunately in many cases, our over-litigious society puts us a a distinct disadvantage at the git/go.

things don't always end like we fantasize. talk to the LEO's about domestic squabbles where they both turn on the police who are trying to help. this probably ain't a domestic call, but to think the victim will be gushing praises on you after you shoot the guy may be a false hope.

all that being said, i think i may have shouted at the guy and tried to call him off or distract him - i'd definitely call 911, if i had the chance. if he was actively cutting, stabbing, i don't think he'd hear a sound from me except bang, bang, bang........
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