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Posted: 11/14/2007 1:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 4:02:09 PM EDT by PhuzzyGnu]
This is not a "I'm Billy Joe Badass" post, because I am not. This is not a "I saved the damn world drawing my Glock" post, because I didn't.

--------------------------

I was driving home from work this afternoon. I'm a truck driver, so I drive defensively for a living. I was in the left lane on a surface street with two lanes and a raised, curbed median. A tractor trailer pulled out from a business on the right into the left lane. He was moving slowly, so I changed lanes to the right and passed him. After I was well clear, I put on my signal and started changing lanes back.

As I was about halfway back into the left lane, the Corsica that had been well behind me in the right lane was on my ass and hard on the brakes, honking and swerving. He had started to dart around me as I made my lane change- he obviously saw my signal and decided to go anyway. No big deal- had I seen him I would have let him by. As I was already in the left lane, I just finished the lane change and continued on- no braking, no gesturing, nothing.

The car jerked back to the right and got on my right. The VERY large guy driving and his female passenger were yelling, gesturing, cussing- pretty much having a shit-fit towards me. The driver was jerking his wheel towards me, gunning the motor, all and all being an ass.

I just smiled and waved with my right hand which was on my passenger headrest. I didn't flip him off or mouth anything.

He continued jerking and swerving and what-not.

I looked back, shrugged my shoulders in a "Whatever" kinda gesture.

He FLOORED it, accellerated a few car lengths in front of me, slammed on the brakes, and came to a stop. I stopped with a car length or two and started to go right, getting about 15-20* towards the right but traffic stopped me from going right. The truck we had passed stopped pretty hard behind me (I heard his airbrakes, so I know he was fairly hard on the brakes).

The driver of the Corsica threw open his door and stormed out, starting towards my car, pointing and telling me to "get out of the fucking car, motherfucker" "come on, bitch!"

The truck honked his airhorn, hard.

I couldn't go left, there wasn't a break in traffic on my right, and I couldn't back up.

I had my hand on my Glock 29 (@3:00 and in a Comp-Tac paddle holster) when he stopped and I had drawn it and had it in my lap when the door opened.

When he got to about the front of my car, I raised it up and towards the window (kind of a cramped weaver) enough where he could see it (obviously not out the damn window) and said "STOP."

He said "What the fuck?" and stood there for a second.

I said "STOP, man, just get back in your car. Please. Get back in the fucking car."

He said "Fuck this, bitch" and turned back to his car, looking back, cussing and pointing at me.

I sat there, he peeled out, and I drove on. and took the next left so as not to end up next to him at the next light.


-----------------------------

a) I was probably firmly in a gray area drawing the gun, but I figure some big guy coming to a stop on a busy street and starting towards my car didn't want to chat. He didn't have a weapon in hand, but his clothes were baggy enough that I couldn't be sure.

b) I was probably a bit of a smartass but not an asshole

c) I couldn't go right or back up, and once he started back he was close enough to get to me even if I had floored it and tried to go around on the right.

d) Sitting in the driver's seat of a Civic doesn't allow much room to move and/or defend yourself.

e) This is the first time I've ever drawn my gun since the law passed and I began carrying.

------------------------------

So flame away.

-p.

(edited for grammar only)
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:02:58 PM EDT
So did you call the cops and report the incident right away???

If not, why not?
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:11:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 2:15:56 PM EDT by 1911Custom]
Sounds like you did alright. I hope you got a plate number.

I don't know that I'd report something like that, because it is a gray area thing. You made your call, and it worked out.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:25:01 PM EDT
Assuming that the incidents occurred exactly as you say (nothing against you, by any means), than in FL you were likely in a grey area until he when/if he attempted to remove you from your vehicle or enter your vehicle. I'm not familiar enough with TX laws to speak for that one.

Personally, I'd have drawn my weapon and had it out of sight until such time as when he tried to open my door, then it's a forcible, violent felony, and he's actively attempting to remove me from my vehicle or carjack me. That's a bad thing for him. I think showing a gun for nearly any reason other than using it is typically a bad idea.

Incidents like this should be immediately reported. For the purposes of the initial complaint, the first caller is the victim. That may change later, but it's just how it is during an initial investigation.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:29:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 2:31:38 PM EDT by 10-8k9]
You should have reported the incident to the local authorities along with his vehicle registration number, his physical, and if possible, the registration (company name etc) of the truck that was behind you for a witness, as soon as possible.

A number of facts would enter in to the justification for drawing your weapon such as your means to escape the situation, his demeanor, your feeling of threat, his physical size in relation to yours which would increase your physical fear level, and so on. You have described some of the above, but the more articulate you can be both verbally and physically writing a report, if requested, the better it is for you.

Ignoring a person trying to harass or intimidate you is the best policy and will work for you should anything develop out of the incident. You want to look "lily white" before those who would judge you. Best wishes!
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:41:48 PM EDT
Not exactly a flame but I guess laws vary from state to state. We can't CCW in this state to begin with but even if we could and I had done what you had I would have been in serious trouble legally. CCW only allows you to defend yourself if you are in immediate danger and it sounds to me like you weren't in immediate danger. Now if the asshole jumped out of his car and was carrying anything in his hand which could be percieved as a threat even a pencil I would say well done good job or you were justified. But being that wasn't the case I can't do that. Not that my opinion should bother you either way.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:47:48 PM EDT
I think you're lucky he didn't call the cops first.

As much as it would have sucked, you should've called the cops and explained the situation.

Had he called the police "Yes sir, I was driving my car with my girlfriend and this crazy guy in a truck cuts me off and starts waving his pistol at me..." You'd be in deep shit.

I'm glad everything worked out for you. Stay safe.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 2:58:28 PM EDT
crazy

You probably could have gotten arrested for that, I would think.

I guess that whats guns are for though. It did make the guy go back to his car and forget about the toughguy act.

I'm not Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. Ain't about to scuffle on the highway, thats crazy.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:07:21 PM EDT
These situations are exactly why OC should be carried with a gun. Obviously lethal force was not warranted by someone who wanted to kick your ass. Had you sprayed him and he wanted to pursue the matter, then drawing the gun would be legit. Or, as mentioned above, if he tried to pull you out of the car, I would've drawn my gun, too.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:10:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gringop:
So did you call the cops and report the incident right away???


+1
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:16:10 PM EDT
Not a flame. You did what you feel you had to do but....

Here in NY you would have been arrested for menacing. While its true that the other driver was the agressor, he was unarmed. By drawing your handgun you escalated the level of force from a potential physical altarcation to deadly force.


I'm glad your ok.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 4:15:26 PM EDT by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 3:19:42 PM EDT by 3rdpig]
In 29 years of daily carry I've probably been a similar incident at least a half a dozen times. When someone who's obviously in a rage threatens to drag you out of your car and beat you to death you've got a limited set of choices.

If he's unarmed your best bet is to lock the door and close the window and call the cops. Now you just sit there and see just how far he's willing to go to get to you. You could try to drive to a police station, but if you cause an accident you will be held accountable. At the point where he breaks a window that's when the gun comes out. In this case a pepper spray is probably better than a gun, but if he's willing break a window then he's proven he's so enraged you can justifiably claim to be in fear of your life. If at any point in time he's said "I'm going to kill you", then you can claim you were in fear of your life.

If he's armed in any way, knife, tire iron, baseball bat, then you're justified in drawing your gun and, IMHO, using it if he doesn't back off.

If you're on a motorcycle and he's tried to run you off the road, as has happened to me, he's already tried to kill or seriously injure you and a gun is appropriate.

And no matter what happens, call the cops and report it asap.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:22:03 PM EDT
If your carrying via Tx CHL your required by law to report the incident if you show the weapon.

Otherwise, it sounds like you did pretty good. You never know how you will react until it all goes down.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:37:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
So he opened the car door? Why wasn't the door locked?......


Reading comprehension problems? The bad-guy opened HIS OWN door, and never got all the way up to the OP's car.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:50:48 PM EDT
I'd say you did just fine regardless of the particular laws in your area.

You both left unharmed, him hopefully with a new attitude.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:51:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 3:53:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 3:59:02 PM EDT by pulpsmack]
Your post is edited. I don't know what if anything you changed about the initial story details but this is what I read:

- Dude was angry about something.

- Dude forced you off the road/to a stop in the road

- Dude got out of the car and began a tirade of threats

- Dude approached and opened your car door. Re-read

- You had the pistol out on him as he opened your door. Re-read


Giving your story as I understand it the benefit of the doubt (and you know what we all say about these low post count coincidences), I say good work pretty iffy, with room for improvement.

State laws vary but in my neck of the woods, an open car door with the threat of violence is cause for the use of deadly force (carjacking statute). You may not be so lucky in other places, but what you did given the flaws in the overall scenario seemed sensible to me. re-read

The one thing that would have made you 100% IMO would have been to have your door LOCKED, and you call 911 as soon as you made that hard stop and dude got out of the car. That said, it's easy for somebody to secondguess such actions after the fact from the comfort of a desk chair, and I am sure you are doing it yourself. I know I did when I had my SHTF, and I have learned from my mistakes. Good to see you are alive, that shit didn't escalate and that police were not involved in a call against you. I still stand by this part
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 4:00:10 PM EDT
I was probably not fully justified to display the Glock -to him only- when I did. I was wrong that I didn't call the cops.

Had I called the cops -and not perjured myself to properly justify it- I might have found myself in more trouble and maybe lost my CHL. Remember, our DA in Harris County is Chuck Rosenthal. It's a shitty situation when a normal guy like myself DOESN'T call the cops when by all rights he should. I know it was a gray area. With the passage of the Texas Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law, had he reached the door and grabbed the doorhandle, all bets would be off.

I have some Fox 5.3, but it was not in my car at the time. It may have played out to be more entertaining to have sprayed him- or it may have escalated it further.

25 feet is the lethal zone where a normal person can get to you before you have a chance to react, right? He was at the bumper of my Honda Civic. My door was locked but the window was down. That's too close. The first case of a CHL holder using deadly force after the law was passed in Texas was a man in Dallas who was getting the shit beat out of him by an otherwise unarmed, very large guy after their mirrors bumped in traffic. How long do you wait before you defend yourself? Proactive or reactive? I was proactive. Perhaps excessively so.

In the end, nothing happened and nothing will happen. I am not going to make a habit of going around drawing down willy nilly every time I get the chance. I figure I avoided at the very least a little dammage from a big fist to my hood. At most? who knows.

So now I sit here in (relative) internet anonymity with some very valid criticisms put forth from you guys - most of which I don't and won't argue. Am I traumatized? Hell no. Will I lose any sleep? Nope. Shit happens.

I am glad I didn't have to shoot the guy, though.

-p.

Link Posted: 11/14/2007 4:03:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2007 4:06:10 PM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]
pulpsmack, I think the breakdown is that the aggressor did NOT approach the posters car door, but was stopped by the posters with gun in hand as he approached the front of the posters car.

That's the defining moment here, the difference between a verbal argument (subject at the front of the car) and a carjacking (subject opening car door).


Edit: I see you edited as well.


Edit2: PhuzzyGnu, I don't think anybody has any intent of flaming you, as putting oneself in that same situation, it would be very difficult to perform differently.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 4:13:33 PM EDT
I think you did okay. I was in a similar situation, after a little road rage a guy stopped on the interstate (bumper to bumper traffic) and when his door opened my pistol came out. I never raised it past my lap though and I would have let him hit my car or try to break the window before I showed it to him. Since I never exposed my firearm, I didn't call the police, but I think you should have.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 4:53:32 PM EDT
You did fine.

Even so, you should have called the po-po. If he called them and reported YOU then your story would be under scrutiny.

In NC, if someone is trying to enter your home by force you can shoot them through the door. Don't see why it would be any different in the car. If he was aware you had a firearm and told to stand down, the act of touching my door handle would probably be his last. Can't imagine it would be fun to shoot a firearm inside a car though.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 7:14:57 PM EDT
In my uneducated opinion, I think you did great aside from calling the police. For someone to go as far out of their way to stop their car in traffic, get out and move towards your vehicle, showing your weapon should be acceptable. He was entirely in the wrong especially since he was acting aggressively.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 8:06:19 PM EDT
great job, glad everything turned out ok

just some thoughts, if your firearm is not holstered or properly secured in your car, whether its moving or not (yet), keep it in your HAND--make sure you always have access to it and it wont get 'lost in transition'
-try to remember to get a tag # and call the PD after something like that

if they stop, run em over (use only in situations that demand such action of course)

Link Posted: 11/14/2007 8:14:12 PM EDT
There are a number of things to consider here. The man STOPPED his car in the middle of a highway and approached your car on foot. He was already displaying aggressive behavior prior to stopping and approaching your car.

Several posters have ASSUMED he was unarmed, but none of us really know, do we? He could have been armed, and do we know what his intentions were? I sure don't. I am quite sure his intentions weren't good. I doubt he was trying to sell you insurance in the middle of the highway, was he?

So, it comes down to that human reaction. When is it appropriate to defend yourself? Do you have to wait for a beating before you do something to protect yourself? Pepper spray...hmmm...very humanitarian idea, but shitty in enclosed spaces. You would have been overcome more than he would have, and you being incapacitated under those circumstances is unacceptable. You would have been sitting in your car with a face full of cayenne heat.

If you were standing outside your car, and the wind was right, pepper away. However, I wouldn't recommend using it in any confined space, especially while seated in the car.

You did everything right, except not calling the cops. You can articulate a sufficient amount of FEAR that the guy was intent on causing you physical harm and/or stealing your car. You don't have to wait until he rips the door off your car to establish that. He's already laid the groundwork for you.

All you did was brandish a firearm. You didn't shoot the guy. You had a good reason to think he was going to cause you harm. If the brandishing would have been deemed inappropriate by a court, you committed a misdemeanor in California.

Here's the California statute that would apply to this situation:

Penal Code Section 417

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:

(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months.


Now, if you brandished a firearm at another driver during a road rage incident (what this situation sounds like), it would be inappropriate if you could avoid him in some way. In this situation, as you described it, you were stuck, and he was approaching on foot. This was going to be an ugly confrontation no matter what. You ended it peacefully, and I doubt anyone in the DA's office I deal with each day would have been fired up to prosecute you for anything.

Next time, tell your story to the cops, and get the aggressor's license plate number. After 18 years in law enforcement, I think you did alright. You can easily articulate the self defense part, so I think you would have been in good shape either way.

Cheers,

-E h


Link Posted: 11/15/2007 7:50:09 AM EDT
I tend to agree with negotiator (low post count and all!)

You did just fine. You prevented a gunfight and both of you went home alive. Agreed you should have reported it. Perhaps even dialing 911 on your cell as he stopped and cut you off just to let the dispatcher hear what was happening would have been prudent. At 25 feet or closer, he could have been on you like stink on sh*t with a knife at your neck if he would have wanted to. You did just fine in preventing that. Clearly, he wasn't interested in having a calm discussion on the matter. Plus, if I read your post correctly, you didn't actually POINT the gun at him, just displayed it to him. You would not have lost your CCW, IMO.

Doesn't hurt to carry that OC with you just to have the option, though.

Nice work!

CY6!
Link Posted: 11/15/2007 10:29:44 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By PhuzzyGnu:

25 feet is the lethal zone where a normal person can get to you before you have a chance to react, right?


I have actually heard that the rule of 21 (the rule of where a person who has an edged weapon can get to you before you can draw and fire your weapon acurately) Should actucally be more like the rule of more around 40 to 50 feet because you have to first see the threat and process it as a threat and determine in a fraction of a second on what you are going to do to stop the attacker if he his charging you with an egdged weapon or he just wants to kick your ass. there are many factors that come into play on this. Such as is it dark, are you expecting to have somebody hiding in your bushes or around your car (if you are well aware of your surroundings that shouldnt be a probably but it may) or even waiting for you to come out of your house or walk around the corner and so on and so fourth. I do believe you should keep that fox in your car or on your person if possible, I have there riot fogger in the drive door. and also have the 4oz in my center console and the 3oz in my cargo pocket when I am at work. That fox is some amazing shit, it turns the most aggresive person into a crying baby in a matter of a fraction of a second.
Link Posted: 11/15/2007 1:11:58 PM EDT
From the ARFCOM SWAT Magazine Archive:

Rethinking the 21 ft rule

It's a good and valuable read. 40-50 feet may only be a valid use of lethal force if your attacker has a weapon capable of hitting you from that distance. (ie: a gun)
Link Posted: 11/15/2007 1:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2007 1:34:56 PM EDT by bloodsport2885]
In the great state of Tennessee you have to PROVE 3 things in a self-defense scenario.

Intent to cause death or great bodily harm or death
Ability to cause great bodily harm or death
And that your life or limb was in jeopardy

With our laws, if a person Forcibly enters your vehicle or home, that person automatically has proven his intent and ability to do you harm. With no escape in traffic and his forcible vehicle stop, I'm willing to bet 25 to life that you were completely justified. His actions represented a clear and present danger to you and be happy you didn't have to shoot him. If I were in your shoes I would have been scared shitless for my life because I don't know this guy from Adam and he's acting nuts. Beyond that you probably should have called the cops so that you become the victim. I think you did good.
Link Posted: 11/15/2007 7:25:28 PM EDT
IMHO, you did what you had to do. If you had kept the gun hidden, there is a very good chance that we would have a dead a##hole on the street and you would be embroiled in a very expensive legal defense. I do agree that reporting to the authorities would have been a good move, though. Brandishing is frowned upon in most jurisdictions, so explaining your side first would have helped your case if Mr. Aggressive had reported you. But he didn't, so all is well.
Bottom line, as I was advised by a lawyer friend years ago, when you're backed into a corner and have no more options, it's better to be tried by twelve that carried by six! Blessings and stay safe..............JB
Link Posted: 11/16/2007 1:08:19 PM EDT
Bear in mind, he already has two witnesses for his story: him and the girl. +1 to getting the trucker's company info if at all possible.

I think ya did good, and you've been told enough by now to call 911 that I imagine you will if there ever is, heaven forbid, a next time.

Link Posted: 11/16/2007 4:31:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
If your carrying via Tx CHL your required by law to report the incident if you show the weapon.

Otherwise, it sounds like you did pretty good. You never know how you will react until it all goes down.


THERE IS NO SUCH LAW!!!!! Holy crap where do people get this stuff/

That said, you may or may not have been justified. I have seen plenty of shitty truck drivers to not put any weight that "you drive a truck for a living, so you are a safe driver".

I am also suspect when someone writes that they were completely innocent but some other person was sooooo out of line.

It worries me when peoples only defense they can think of is to draw their gun. What would you have done if he had continued to walk towards you? shoot him?

What is your legal justification for doing so?

Remember folks, he is in Texas. ONLY Texas law matters here.
Link Posted: 11/16/2007 4:59:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2007 5:16:40 PM EDT
Had a similiar incident when approched by Gang Bangers calling my wife and myself bitch and all kinds of other stuff they would have caused trouble. Only difference we were walking downtown on a public road.

Pulled my 1911 and suddenly there was a peace treaty. You know what, I got no problem with brandishing if need be. I am a old man if some young punks want to fuck me up I will shoot.
Link Posted: 11/16/2007 5:55:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:


That said, you may or may not have been justified. I have seen plenty of shitty truck drivers to not put any weight that "you drive a truck for a living, so you are a safe driver".

I am also suspect when someone writes that they were completely innocent but some other person was sooooo out of line.

It worries me when peoples only defense they can think of is to draw their gun. What would you have done if he had continued to walk towards you? shoot him?

What is your legal justification for doing so?

Remember folks, he is in Texas. ONLY Texas law matters here.



I already said I was probably not justified.

I AM a good driver. It's my job. Last ticket in 1994 at 19 or 20 years old in my personal car. 100,000+ miles last year hauling hazardous waste in vans, tankers, flatbed, intermodal, roll-off, and Class B trucks. NO preventable accidents, NO tickets. I've NEVER had an operational violation in a truck and I get inspected a couple of times a month due to the nature of my cargo.

I said I was a smartass. I wasn't an asshole. I didn't cuss, flip off or anything. I laughed and shrugged my shoulders.

I was in a Honda Civic on a surface street blocked in by traffic on the right, a curb on the left and a truck behind me. Some guy flips out for whatever reason, STOPS his car on a busy street and gets out? That's aberrant behavior in my book. I sat there. It was either fish around in my backpack for my laptop to throw at him or grab what was on my hip for that purpose- a last-ditch mode of defense when things go wrong.

Would I have shot him if he had continued towards me? No. I would have told him top stop. Again. If he had grabbed the door handle? Opened the door? Getting REALLY damn close. Started to pull me out and/or beat me? Absolutely.

Legal justification? Grey area. I was most likely wrong. Personal justification? I was scared.

-p.
Link Posted: 11/17/2007 6:07:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2007 6:17:59 PM EDT by Minator556]
First, If you do indeed have a CHL you must have not paid attention when your instructor told you that you can be charged with brandishing a firearm if you do not report it immediately in any occurence you show your weapon.

Second, If the story is as you say you had every right to draw your weapon he showed force by forcing you to the side of the road you inturn showed force by showing him your firearm.

but if your going to draw and not shoot you dont ask them to get back in their car plz, you issue commands, such as " stay back or I will shoot" "come any closer and I will shoot" or plain "Stop" alot of time if you dont express force when showing force it can possibly escalate a conflict by angering the suspect further.

Third in response to

"It worries me when peoples only defense they can think of is to draw their gun. What would you have done if he had continued to walk towards you? shoot him?

What is your legal justification for doing so? "

What should he have done wait for the person who is escalating the conflict to pull him out of the vehicle, damage the vehicle, or possibly him?

Legal justification? WTF? I dont know what part of texas everyone else is from but in san patricio county forcing a vehicle to stop on a public road can be considered assault and falls under "road rage".

would you have done if he had continued to walk towards you? shoot him?

Every man has to answer that question for themselves at one point or another and if the answer is no then you have no business carrying a concealed handgun or using any firearm in self defense or youll just end up getting hurt. IMO

The man in the vehicle showed force first by forcing the rig to stop FIRST, Then force was returned by showing the firearm and issueing some sort of commands. He would have every right to shoot and as of now the state of texas currently has the castle doctrine written into law so him or his family wouldnt be able to sue you.

Edited to add:

Dont take my word for it you can download in pdf format the current concealed handgun law book TDPS website, also in the packet of paperwork you recieved or were supposed to receive from the the department of public safety a small white booklet that says on the front texas concealed handgun laws.
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 7:14:36 AM EDT
I'd have done the same thing, except open my door to say "get back" or whatever. My reaction would have been to draw and stay put if he wasn't armed if he was a big angry guy stopped in the middle of a 4 lane road.

But here's a concern I have about calling 911 in a scenario like this... could simply calling in to report this incriminate you for "brandishing a weapon" or "disorderly conduct/disturbing the peace?" Meaning, your intent is to report what happened but could the police cite you or worse, revoke your CCW if they feel you reacted incorrectly? One of the two times I unholstered my weapon I was walking home to my apartment, late at night, urban area. 2 guys who were on the other side of the street walking the opposite direction see me, stop, and cross the street to my side and start following me. I pick up the pace, and somehow they're closing on me, so I UNHOLSTER (gun at my side pointing down,) stop, and half turn to look at them. They stopped, said something to each other and turned and walked away. I didn't call 911 because of the concern I mentioned earlier... so unless there's physical or property damage, I'm somewhat concerned with calling it in. Gray area?
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 7:29:35 AM EDT
Road Rage happens. Yes, you could correctly state that drawing your gun was probably a "gray" area.

Glad to know you made it through okay. Start thinking tactically NOW, so that this kind of thing doesn't happen to you in the future.

Play the "what if" game when you are otherwise just "zoning" out. It's something I was taught in FTO way back when, and have tried to get all my trainees to get in the practice of doing.

As you are going through your day start thinking "What if...(insert something here, guy with gun, guy with hostage, car pulls me off the side of the road, etc)" think about what advantages you have, what you can do, and try to have SOME plan of action rather than just allowing them complete control over your actions.

In my experience, you MIGHT have been charged if the other guy had reported the incident, (assuming they could find you) but based on your statements of what happend, and what you described he did, as well as the "fear" you were feeling. I don't believe that any DA or jury would convict you.

But it doesn't take a conviction to lose your CHL.

Good luck, stay safe.
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 7:40:33 AM EDT
If it occured as you describe then I believe you would have been jusitified in "brandishing" at least under Virginia law. A defense to brandishing is if it is necessary to prevent serious bodily harm. The other driver's actions, at least to me, demonstrate an intent to do serious bodily injury to you.

Good job. Hope you reported it to the police.
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 7:48:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
If your carrying via Tx CHL your required by law to report the incident if you show the weapon.


Please cite the statute and the txt of the statute that requires this.
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 7:48:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2007 7:54:02 AM EDT by SC-Texas]
My take is that it was a gray area, probably justified in Houston, TX.

I would have drawn, but not brandished until he came up to my car absent his display of a weapon.

Nothing like some turd getting to your car door thinking he is billy bad ass only to look in the driver's window and see a 5" Smith and Wesson Model 29 (Or a Glock 20 10mm) looking back at him.
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 9:51:05 AM EDT
A Honda Civic produces better "one shot stops" than a 10mm.

To be totally justified morally and in the eyes of the law, one must be in the act of being physically removed or attacked from their vehicle before firing in self defense upon on unarmed aggressor.

And even then, there is the accelerator. If it is truly a situation where your physical safety is in jeopardy, drive away. This may mean 'squeezing' through or over 'something'.

If you find yourself in a situation where "traffic" is what is preventing you from moving your vehicle, then you were not truly driving defensively.

The situations where one would truly need to resort to the pistol from the driver's seat of a vehicle are very, very rare. Mostly, it is impractical and unnecessary.

If I were the OP, I'd be very glad that I had the opportunity to reflect upon the incident in hindsight from the comfort of the internet and not the county lockup, and with the help of ARFCOM Chairborne Rangers and not a defense attorney. Cheap lesson. Worth a lot more than it cost you.





Link Posted: 11/18/2007 1:16:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2007 1:21:40 PM EDT by Green0]
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 1:19:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2007 1:30:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2007 1:37:43 PM EDT by SevenMaryThree]

Originally Posted By Green0:
A. Good use of your gun.

B. Never say please again when you have a gun in your hands.

I would brandish the firearm, (not point it at him but show him I have it), then tell him to "Get the fuck back in your car."

If he continued toward me, I'd point it at him, "STOP."

If he continues, he gets a warning shot in the air, and if that doesn't convince him to run, he gets dropped.

In my experience he'd have to be demoniacally possessed to continue past a warning shot. I don't fight the demoniacally possessed with my fists.


Judas Titty Fucking Tap Dancing Priest....are you fuggin' SERIOUS?!?!?

Ho-Le-Shit....


so apparently what I learned in the Army is a little aggressive. So you wait for him to open your door. . .

I don't let people beat on me just because they haven't presented a firearm. To me a physical fight is a threat to my life, so I would respond (out of the vehicle in the manor in which I stated previously.)


You're gonna end up in jail one day. Remember this thread and think 7M3 told me this would happen. Seriously.



Link Posted: 11/18/2007 1:54:05 PM EDT
This is an excellent example of when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer everything looks like a nail.


The OP is lucky he is not in jail right now.


Link Posted: 11/19/2007 4:00:19 PM EDT
I can't believe the responses people are giving. I absolutely think you did the right thing. You did what you thought was best. You were in an unknown situation and didn't fuck around. You showed the guy that you meant business and he got the message.

All this crap about, you have to wait until he would have opened your door or began assaulting you before you can do something or whatever is crap. I sure as hell am not going to wait until some a-hole is pounding me to a pulp to feel "justified in the eyes of the law" to do something, I don't care what the law says. I also sure as hell am not going to spent a single second trying to figure out if I am legally justified to defend myself in a potentially life threating situation.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 5:30:03 PM EDT
Its not about waiting for the Ahole to begin pounding you to a pulp, its about waiting till you can easily argue to a grand jury that you are reasonably in fear for your life.

When the turd starts hitting the window, I figurfe thats the right time unless he brandishses a weapon.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 6:10:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223Whore:
I can't believe the responses people are giving. I absolutely think you did the right thing. You did what you thought was best. You were in an unknown situation and didn't fuck around. You showed the guy that you meant business and he got the message.

All this crap about, you have to wait until he would have opened your door or began assaulting you before you can do something or whatever is crap. I sure as hell am not going to wait until some a-hole is pounding me to a pulp to feel "justified in the eyes of the law" to do something, I don't care what the law says. I also sure as hell am not going to spent a single second trying to figure out if I am legally justified to defend myself in a potentially life threating situation.


If there is that much fear for your life why not drive up onto the "curbed median" or ram the guy's car and make your escape? The threat was great enough to use deadly force but not enough to damage your car? That's what a prosecutor and grand jury/trial jury are going to be wondering... did you really have to shoot? Couldn't you just drive away?

If you blow someone away for any road rage incident, no matter how innocent you were, it's going to be hard not to look like Rambo in court.

Like someone above posted... when your only tool is a hammer...
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 8:26:42 PM EDT
GreenO,

warning shots can get your ass thrown in jail. See the Harold Fish case. Prosecution used the fact that he fired a "warning shot" as evidence that he was not in fear of his life or great bodily harm.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 9:35:25 PM EDT
Sorry, NO WARNING SHOTS.....

He makes the first move, there's no need to warn him about anything.

You've shown him the business end of the weapon, and if that hasn't stopped him, a shot wizzing over his head won't do it either, and my endanger a bystander. AND, while you're picking a "SAFE" Direction for your warning shot to go, you're not watching the threat.....

NO WARNING SHOTS....EVER!!!!!
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