Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/28/2005 2:18:57 PM EDT
With the topics of the 7.62x25 and 10mm got me thinking. The 10mm was meant to go through cover such as glass, door and still carry the potential for greater lethality. The 7.62x25 was / is a subgun and handgun caliber that IMO is between the performance of a 9mm and 30 Carbine cartridges.

My question is in the event of more and more body armor being used in the future; will the handgun become less and less relevant if calibers and improvements don’t occur?

I think a round in the 7.62x25 type of format might be a start but not the answer. What hypothetical caliber would you guys like to see worked out to reality?

Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:26:02 AM EDT
Well, the .357 Sig is a .40 S&W case with a 9mm bullet stuck in it. The .40 S&W in itself is a shortened 10mm Auto. Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case. Now THAT would be a badass round!
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:08:00 AM EDT
5.7?

I don't think body armor is that much of a worry for civies. Chances are that the guy you are defending your life against can barely afford the shirt on their back let alone body armor. Of course, I don't frequent rap concerts.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:08:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Well, the .357 Sig is a .40 S&W case with a 9mm bullet stuck in it. The .40 S&W in itself is a shortened 10mm Auto. Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case. Now THAT would be a badass round!


Think of the muzzle flash on that thing. Even if you miss, you could just burn them.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 2:26:23 PM EDT
I like your 10mm case idea...

So is the future of handguns in bottle neck rounds such as: 357 Sig and 400 Cor Bon... I like 357 Sig but I still think it ain't enough. You think 10mm case with a 5" to 6" barrel pushing a 100 to 115 grain 9mm round could reach up and perhaps over the 1800 to 2000 fps threshold?

Do you think the 5.7 FN type round is a flash in the pan like sabots were to rifles?


By the way... anyone have balistic info on the 400 Cor Bon?
How does it compare to the 10mm, 357 Sig and 7.62x25?
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 5:13:44 PM EDT

Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case. Now THAT would be a badass round!


...apparently some people have never heard of the 9x25 Dillon...
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 9:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By p-dog:

Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case. Now THAT would be a badass round!


...apparently some people have never heard of the 9x25 Dillon...




Bingo. I want a glock 20 in 9x25.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:19:36 PM EDT
Ok did my check on the 9x25. So if you can get 1800 fps out of a 110 gr. cartridge (Handgun) why the 5.7 FN? Couldn't you make a 90-100 grain round in a 9x25 FN type Carbine pushing up and over the 2000 fps barrier? I mean who I am to say... but wouldn't this be a better approach?


Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:32:11 PM EDT
Okay, I'll see your 9/10mm (not a bad idea at all) and raise you: a 9/45 WinMag. (Anyone remember the .38 Hard Head?) I've also been toying with the possibility of a .44 AutoMag lengthened to the full length of an AR-15 magazine. D'oh, I just gave away one of my pet projects--
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:42:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NODDAH:
Ok did my check on the 9x25. So if you can get 1800 fps out of a 110 gr. cartridge (Handgun) why the 5.7 FN? Couldn't you make a 90-100 grain round in a 9x25 FN type Carbine pushing up and over the 2000 fps barrier? I mean who I am to say... but wouldn't this be a better approach?



In a word, penetration. The 5.7x28 (and the HK 4.6x30) were both designed to replace the 9x19 with a round which can drill through body armour, hence the small calibre.

Of course, the 9x25 could be loaded with one of the AP bullets the Russians are loading into their 9x19 and 9x21 ammo. These are very light and fast and consist of a steel core which is separated from the rest of the bullet by a plastic liner. The idea is that against an unprotected target the bullet holds together and acts as a ball round, but against armour the core separates fom the rest and penetrates by itself. These bullets are supposed to be pretty good against armour, but for aerodynamic reasons their effective AP range is more limited that the 5.7 or 4.6.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:35:15 AM EDT
Those Russians soemtimes come at problems so differently... I always liked their air bubble concept in the 5.45.

Anyhow... I see and know what your saying... The 5.7 and 4.6 concept is in the approach of light and fast. I am just saying and asking how about not so heavy or light and just as fast. Something that has enough weight that it is not so dependent on velocity (At outer ranges) and within its high velocity range still has the potential for AP lethality. (Within 100 yards / carbine)

I guess your Russian example is closer to the concept I am speaking to; but not exact.



Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:54:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ductapeman:
Okay, I'll see your 9/10mm (not a bad idea at all) and raise you: a 9/45 WinMag. (Anyone remember the .38 Hard Head?) I've also been toying with the possibility of a .44 AutoMag lengthened to the full length of an AR-15 magazine. D'oh, I just gave away one of my pet projects--




That will be a handfull of fun... excuse my lack of 44 history.

44 Automag.... was that a 308 brass / cut down round??

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:59:24 AM EDT
With the right handgun and proper loading the 9X25 is awesome. With a FMJ it will penetrate some body armor right now. If you could design a hand gun to handle it and make it an effective combat tool look out! Double Tap has several loadings for this round and with a barrel swap you can run them with the Glock 20 with no problems. Might wear it out faster.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:17:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NODDAH:
Ok did my check on the 9x25. So if you can get 1800 fps out of a 110 gr. cartridge (Handgun) why the 5.7 FN? Couldn't you make a 90-100 grain round in a 9x25 FN type Carbine pushing up and over the 2000 fps barrier? I mean who I am to say... but wouldn't this be a better approach?




Doubletap's 95 grain loading gets 2000 fps out of a 6" Glock 20 barrel. I'm sure it would be plenty quick out of a carbine, but it's far easier to buy and install a barrel for the Glock than it would be for a 10mm carbine.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 5:52:24 PM EDT
7.62x30 ? Make it more like a shortened 7.62x39 rifle cartridge than the 7.62 Tokarev, might be something there I think.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:58:01 PM EDT
I would be all over your idea of the 7 mm round launched out of a bullet length of 30mm. My only concern would be the handgun design (Not Carbine) what would the grip be like?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Well, the .357 Sig is a .40 S&W case with a 9mm bullet stuck in it. The .40 S&W in itself is a shortened 10mm Auto. Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case. Now THAT would be a badass round!



That's called a 9x25mm Dillon.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:51:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 2:47:51 PM EDT by lu380]
.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:13:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NODDAH:
Those Russians soemtimes come at problems so differently...




Like when the USA wasted $20million on R&D for a pen that would work in zero gravity environments, so astronaughts could take notes and write in journals, etc...


And the russians just took pencils...
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:56:47 PM EDT
Why don't we just roll all these concepts into one and neck the 9x25 Dillon down to 7.62 -- 7.62/10mm -- then plant a saboted .223 Barnes X-bullet into a compressed load of 296 (??!)

Who wants to pull the trigger?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:42:35 PM EDT
I say we scrap every caliber and go with the .45acp for hand/sub guns give the 9mm back to the euro's send the .40 back to the place it came from and design what everyone has been after the entire time. why Why WHY if there is such demand for a high capacity (13+) 1911 and double action/single action can no manufacture produce (except para ordnance) *junk) what would completely dominate the handgun market paraordnance almost had it right with their
ss 14-45LDA/LDT model and I almost bought one the thing that stopped me is that it didnt allow for cocked and locked it had a spurless hammer and some heever makes a highcap 1911 sa/da with a spurred hammer cock and lock I will first on the waiting list
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:37:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:
I say we scrap every caliber and go with the .45acp for hand/sub guns



Fine against unprotected opponents, but what about those in body armour? Irregulars in the Middle East have already been seen wearing this, and the .45 ACP is just about the worst service cartridge there is for getting through it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:32:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyWilliams:

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:
I say we scrap every caliber and go with the .45acp for hand/sub guns



Fine against unprotected opponents, but what about those in body armour? Irregulars in the Middle East have already been seen wearing this, and the .45 ACP is just about the worst service cartridge there is for getting through it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum



....umm shoot for the head
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:18:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:

Originally Posted By TonyWilliams:

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:
I say we scrap every caliber and go with the .45acp for hand/sub guns



Fine against unprotected opponents, but what about those in body armour? Irregulars in the Middle East have already been seen wearing this, and the .45 ACP is just about the worst service cartridge there is for getting through it.



....umm shoot for the head



If yo're a good enough shot to do that, you don't need the .45 ACP

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:52:53 PM EDT
BRING BACK THE GYROJETS!!!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 10:29:19 PM EDT
I believe Arnold was fond of the Podbyrin 10.62 mm...most powerful handgun in the world!!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:43:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 7:52:07 AM EDT by qiqazz]

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Why not stick the 9mm bullet in the 10mm case.


Think of the muzzle flash on that thing. Even if you miss, you could just burn them.


hatar15.com, I'm sure that many of you would modify your Bushmasters and such to be fully automatic if you had armored murderers beating down your door on an hourly basis.
Top Top