How many times will you shoot?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How many times will you shoot?

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:00:04 PM EDT

If you had to draw and fire, would you shoot a standard response (double tap, mozambique, etc.) or keep shooting until the target is on the ground? I ask because I can make hits very fast, but carry single stack guns (they conceal better and they fit my hand better). If I was to shoot until the target was down, I would probably empty the mag or most of the mag (all hits) before the guy hit the dirt. That's fine unless there are multiple targets. What if discover a second target once the first is down? I carry a spare mag and can change mags pretty quickly, but not faster than a BG can pull a trigger. This leads me to reevaluate my response. How do you train regarding number of rounds fired at a single target?

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:06:19 PM EDT

[#1]

You will shoot just like you train.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:07:46 PM EDT

[#2]

As many times as needed.

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:27:17 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.

That's why I'm asking--so I can alter my training.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

I'm talking about a scenerio where you don't know if there are other targets before you shoot the first BG. If you only identified one target, would you shoot until he was on the ground (in my case, the mag would probably be empty at that point), or conserve your ammo incase there is another target you haven't identified yet?

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:42:42 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I'm talking about a scenerio where you don't know if there are other targets before you shoot the first BG. If you only identified one target, would you shoot until he was on the ground (in my case, the mag would probably be empty at that point), or conserve your ammo incase there is another target you haven't identified yet?

I'm not an expert, but I'll toss in my $0.02.

I think ya gotta shoot until the immediate threat is neutralized, period. If that takes 2 shots, all well and and good. If it takes 8 shots.....well, it takes 8 shots then.

No sense in "diluting your attention" looking for a second threat and then having the first threat put one in your breadbasket because he wasn't definitively addressed.

YMMV.

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:48:35 PM EDT

[#5]

Situational awareness.........

Identify threat/threats.

Neutralize threat or threats by priority.

No one is neutralized untill ALL aggressive action by them has ceased.

Posted: 3/31/2006 1:49:53 PM EDT

[#6]

For me... I train double-tapping all the time. At the initial contact, I'll draw and double-tap the target at the same time retreat to area that can provide good cover. If the target is also shooting back... you as a moving target is better than one standing still.

That's why I train while dynmaically moving foreward, backward, or sideways. And I would not stand in the open to engage a target... moving or none moving. Cover, cover, cover... get some, take in the situation, ID all targets, than engage again if need be.

Training is everything... standing at the shooting range and putting holes in paper all day long is not training, it's having fun. My opinion...

~nb

Posted: 3/31/2006 2:10:20 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

Exactly, that's a good reason to vary your training. One instructor I had mentioned that cops have been known to double tap and reholster while someone is still shooting at them. Bad habits can get you killed.

Posted: 3/31/2006 3:03:25 PM EDT

[#8]

I shot 3 and realized the fucker was (still) running away and firing. I sidestepped an obsticle, placed an aimed shot @ 75 feet or so and dropped for cover. I would (probably) would have fired the remaining 3 in slow aimed shots but my dumb ass didn't bring my spare mag that day and I needed exit rounds.

Posted: 3/31/2006 3:55:16 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Situational awareness.........

Identify threat/threats.

Neutralize threat or threats by priority.

No one is neutralized untill ALL aggressive action by them has ceased. hr

+1

Posted: 3/31/2006 4:20:19 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I shot 3 and realized the fucker was (still) running away and firing. I sidestepped an obsticle, placed an aimed shot @ 75 feet or so and dropped for cover. I would (probably) would have fired the remaining 3 in slow aimed shots but my dumb ass didn't bring my spare mag that day and I needed exit rounds.

So is he ok?

Posted: 3/31/2006 4:58:37 PM EDT

[#11]

He was never "ok". In tact, yes.

Posted: 3/31/2006 5:42:20 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Situational awareness.........

Identify threat/threats.

Neutralize threat or threats by priority.

No one is neutralized untill ALL aggressive action by them has ceased.

Are many shooters in a crisis going to think "Okay first I get the guy who is pulling that M1 carbine out from under his jacket, then I'll pop the guy with the big revolver and I'll leave the guy with the thick glasses and .32 raven to last!"

I think if you just try to get a round into everyone else as quick as you can, left to right or whatever, it'll end up being quicker for 99% of shooter than coming up with a priority of targets plan.

Anyway I wonder about these two shot drills etc sometimes. Say you pop off two rounds at a guy, are you really going to know you hit him, assuming you don't hit him somewhere where blood will start squirting out. I'd have to be sure I was hitting him in the chest and not getting anywhere before I would start trying to pop someone in the head. Plus I think those drills train you to hink that his head will be right directly over where you made the chest shots.

Posted: 3/31/2006 5:49:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
As many times as needed.

+1

Posted: 3/31/2006 5:57:02 PM EDT

[#14]

Having been to a couple of post shooting parties (tongue in cheek here), most folks seem to get tunnel vision on the other person's weeapon and they start shooting- and they keep shooting, and shooting, and shooting. In the excitement, if they hit their target, they usually put a few more in them. This was mostly untrained shooters but also some who were supposedly well trained.

That is one of the reasons I carry spare ammo; I worry that I will empty my five shot revolver (my usuaal carry piece because it's so convinient) and need to reload. Yes, I've trained to double tap ("Once to put 'em down, the second to be sure they stay there") and as of the last few years I've been going for triples (especially since I carry the .38 often). Hmm, that still only leaves me with two rounds in the gun; statistically I'm good with that, but reality is that I don't know for sure what I'll do or how many rounds I'll actually expend- notice I didn't say need. So, in answer to your question, I believe in putting the first threat down with extreme prejudice and then addressing the next one- while moving to escape or cover.

Posted: 3/31/2006 6:17:53 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Situational awareness.........

Identify threat/threats.

Neutralize threat or threats by priority.

No one is neutralized untill ALL aggressive action by them has ceased.

Are many shooters in a crisis going to think "Okay first I get the guy who is pulling that M1 carbine out from under his jacket, then I'll pop the guy with the big revolver and I'll leave the guy with the thick glasses and .32 raven to last!"

I think if you just try to get a round into everyone else as quick as you can, left to right or whatever, it'll end up being quicker for 99% of shooter than coming up with a priority of targets plan.

Anyway I wonder about these two shot drills etc sometimes. Say you pop off two rounds at a guy, are you really going to know you hit him, assuming you don't hit him somewhere where blood will start squirting out. I'd have to be sure I was hitting him in the chest and not getting anywhere before I would start trying to pop someone in the head. Plus I think those drills train you to hink that his head will be right directly over where you made the chest shots.

promotions.cfapromo.com/commonwealth/images/pennies2.gif

Basicly yes, you must train yourself to make your mid brain make logical DECISIONS under DURESS if you want to survive.

You MUST understand the physical & physcological changes in perseption that you WILL undergo in a LIFE/DEATH Conflict and be prepared to deal with it. You will NOT know how far away anyone was, how long the conflict lasted nor how many rounds you fired. You may very well not remember reloading let alone reloading twice.

You MUST be able to calculate threat assesment even if you don't realize you're doing it and eliminate the highest priority threats in order.

Your MIND is you best weapon

Posted: 3/31/2006 7:58:05 PM EDT

[#16]

how many rounds? as many as it takes to do the job. if it takes all 27 (XD-45 13+1 with a spare mag), then so be it.

Posted: 4/1/2006 1:15:00 AM EDT

[#17]

I will fire until the target no longer poses a threat. I have 13 opportunities, plus 24 more as a back up. If I can't eliminate the threat at that point, I will alternate my response between car-fu and run-fu . Practice the way you will fight. Try exercising right before shooting to get your heart rate up. Shoot with the same clothing and rig that you wear most of the time. One must come to terms with the thought of killing someone before that person decides to get a CCW permit. Having a weapon and being afraid of using it is worse than not resisting at all. If one is not mentally prepared to employ deadly force in the proper situation, then that person is setting themselves up for failure. One must take the contemplation out of the act of drawing and firing. It needs to be the stimulus/response reflex. You will have time to be scared later. That is how I was during my only CCW encounter with a perp. The draw was without thought; and thankfully that was all it took to convince the perp to find another target. I was only scared as I drove home and thought of how close I had come to shooting someone. I pray that I never have to hurt someone; but if the time comes, I will not hesitate. There is no firm rule of shots that will work for everyone. I would recommend planning not to spray and pray. After all the handgun is an ineffective bullet hose. Reactive targets are good in training. Most folks won't wait around for you give 'em a whole mag. There are exceptions though.

Posted: 4/1/2006 6:19:41 AM EDT

[#18]

from SAS SOP: empty a mag (they used BHP) on a terr to completely neutralize the threat.

Posted: 4/1/2006 7:44:22 AM EDT

[#19]

Keep shooting until they hit the ground and look all f-d up. Then take cover or keep your weapon pointed at them ready to shoot at their first motion toward you.

Because they might come back to life. Don't assume anybody is dead until they're stiff from rigor.

Posted: 4/1/2006 9:55:09 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.
That's why I'm asking--so I can alter my training.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.
I'm talking about a scenerio where you don't know if there are other targets before you shoot the first BG. If you only identified one target, would you shoot until he was on the ground (in my case, the mag would probably be empty at that point), or conserve your ammo incase there is another target you haven't identified yet?

Why wouldnt you shoot untill he is on the ground?

If I was worried about how much ammo I'm carrying, I would do two things: buy a higher capacity gun and/or carry more ammo. Just because you gun runs dry dosnt mean you get to take a smoke break to think about reloading or if they guy is dead. Find cover, top it off, assess the situation.

If you train with a standard response (doubletap, moz, whatever) you will likely respond that way when the SHTF. Break up your training routine a bit. If you can make it happen, take a class.

I'm no expert, but some of this seems to be common sense.

Posted: 4/1/2006 11:17:24 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

Exactly, that's a good reason to vary your training. One instructor I had mentioned that cops have been known to double tap and reholster while someone is still shooting at them. Bad habits can get you killed.

+1 - this is why in my own training, I both try to vary number of rounds and number of targets, and more importantly (it's not easy, either), put in a target assessment phase, then a situation assessment phase, and _then_ reholster. It takes range time, but it's to put a habit into place.

Also note that to remain within the bounds of deadly force law in many (not all) states, you may respond with deadly force as long as a deadly force threat is present. As soon as the deadly force and/or forcible felony threat ceases, you've may no longer use lawful deadly force.

Also note that the last statistic I heard from an instructor was that in firefirefights with police officers, 88% of rounds miss. In a real situation, I don't assume I'll hit just because I can hit at the range. I believe I will... but I also believe I'm much more likely to miss in reality than at the range (hence the desire for range performance far in excess of what is likely to be necessary in reality).

Posted: 4/1/2006 11:22:16 AM EDT

[#22]

Until the perceived threat is perceived to no longer be threatening. Whether that's one shot or four full 30 rounders, whatever it takes is what it takes.

CJ

Posted: 4/1/2006 11:18:04 PM EDT

[#23]

Ammo is cheap! If you can't group and have a spastic trigger finger, then carry more mags. Just remember that you are liable for every bullet that you discharge from your weapon. If you kill the perp, but hit 4 bystandards; you are F**KED! Try different scenarios and try to react properly. It is all about training. Good shots are of no use if the perp still has time to harm you.

Posted: 4/2/2006 11:22:41 AM EDT

[#24]

i always heard "you need to shoot them till they think they're dead, not till YOU think they're dead." i figure if someones wearing concealable body armor or something (worst case) they'll take hits, and probably go down, but they'll come back up firing. until someone is no longer a threat (i've taken their weapon away) they're going to get rounds when they move.

Posted: 4/3/2006 2:26:56 AM EDT

[#25]

Shoot as long as there is a threat......That is a whole lot of loving with most fully loaded Glocks.

Posted: 4/3/2006 2:08:42 PM EDT

[#26]

Well, at 16+1 for me, plus at least 1 extra magazine (hopefully with 17 rounds I can gain enough cover time to reload), I am just shooting as quickly as possible at anything that is holding something metallic in my direction.
(note to bystanders: if someone else is shooting at me, do not point your cell phone at me and try to take a picture).

I have plenty of ammo and plenty of good reasons to stay alive.

Also, always assume WC. You can't see the detonator he has tucked just under his jacket to set off the explosives he has wrapped around himself, or the pocket pistol in his waistband.

I heard about a guy I went to school with shot an attacker just once and he dropped his gun and fell, the guy stood there and pulled out his cell phone to call 911, the attacker pulled out a second pocket pistol and shot the guy in the leg, the attacker then got two more. Both lived, but one shouldn't have.

Brandon J.

Posted: 4/3/2006 3:22:13 PM EDT

[#27]

It's all a matter of your training, and what you are training to do. For law enforcement, it is typical to shoot two or three rounds, understanding that those rounds will be properly placed, and very effective. This leaves ammo for any unseen threats. However, as I teach in my self defense classes, those that are not accustomed to the heightened stress involved in protecting one's self, they should not count on making highly accurate shots under pressure. Therefore, I teach, as do many others, to empty the magazine. Shoot until the gun is empty. The chance that there is another perpetrator is unlikely, yet if there is, once gun fire is heard, they often disappear. Empty the magazine and run...basic self defense. If a second magazine is available, reload while running. If you are not in a position to be in a highly stressful situation on a regular basis, do not trust yourself to place accurate shots when the time comes, regardless of how hard you train for it.

Blackboot

Posted: 4/3/2006 9:16:46 PM EDT

[#28]

Shoot until they are no longer a threat or I run our of bullets!

Posted: 4/3/2006 9:21:48 PM EDT

[#29]

I'm a big fan of NSRs, which simuntions has proven to me. I ran out of ammo in one, with only 1/3 of the hostiles serviced. I only had eight rounds though.

Shoot till they fall though.

Posted: 4/3/2006 9:31:04 PM EDT

[#30]

Shoot to kill. Then one in the head to be sure. They could be faking. . . .

Posted: 4/4/2006 3:57:08 AM EDT

[#31]

I regularly practice Mozambique drills, and with a single assailant, it's going to be a double tap or Mozambique, then evaluate without lowering the weapon. If he's still standing at the end of that, he gets more lead love.

Multiple assailants mean a similar reaction. That's good. That's less for me to screw up.

Everybody gets two rounds if possible, then go back through to take up the slack.

A good question was brought to mind here, such as: "If four guys are all armed with knives and attacking you, how do you work it out?" Closest guy gets two, then next closest, and so on, dealing with remaining threats as they come, depending on if #1 needs remedial training, or #3 or #4 needs to see the flashy thing in my hand. Lest you laugh at my scenario, it DID occur in a Burger King here a few weeks ago. No CCW'ers involved, unfortunately.

Posted: 4/6/2006 9:38:14 PM EDT

[#32]

I will fight till there is no more enemy.....only peace.

Posted: 4/9/2006 10:22:06 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

That needs to be a bumper sticker or somthing, one of the best quotes I have seen in a long time.

As for shooting the BG - When under stress you will do as you have trained as mentioned above.

Posted: 4/9/2006 11:37:44 AM EDT

[#34]

Posted: 4/9/2006 12:16:09 PM EDT

[#35]

2 to the chest, one to the head!
repeat as needed

Posted: 4/10/2006 10:38:01 PM EDT

[#36]

Here's a little math for everyone: A friend who did some research for Los Angeles Sheriff's Department told me that, what actually worked is to put about 400-500 foot pounds of energy into the BG's body*. That's what really works. And for awhile, the sheriffs actually tried to teach that strategy to their deputies. But they found in the end that the deps simply 'sprayed and prayed' until the service was over.

*anything larger than that and you should be carrying a hunting license.

Posted: 4/15/2006 1:49:00 PM EDT

[#37]

Old adage with cops;" shoot till they stop kicking"works for me!!

Posted: 4/18/2006 4:25:22 AM EDT

[#38]

Shoot until the threat is stopped..

Posted: 4/18/2006 8:35:23 AM EDT

[#39]

One interesting tactic I have read is that you should immediately move sideways to the threat when shooting starts. I have trained to do a double-tap and walk either right or left, quickly but steadily. I have also trained to hit a knee if I bump into something.

Honestly, at my low level of proficiency, I have moved to a higher-capacity weapon - G23 to G19. I wouldn't go to a 1911 unless/until I get a WHOLE lot better.

ETA: I do believe that any firing of the weapon is useful, even paper-punching range time. It gets you used to the weapon, used to the flash, etc. Hell, just the muscle memory of pulling the trigger has to help.

Posted: 4/18/2006 12:05:31 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
You will shoot just like you train.

IMHO: Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Shoot them to the ground.

That needs to be a bumper sticker or somthing, one of the best quotes I have seen in a long time.

As for shooting the BG - When under stress you will do as you have trained as mentioned above.

The quote is not mine. I cant recall where I picked it up, but it made sense.

Back to the original question; if you have only verified one threat, then of course he would get your attention. If there are many threats, you should ideally hit them in some sort of "threat priority"... the guy closest with the gun first, the other guy with the knife second... what happens in real life is going to be different.

Posted: 4/18/2006 12:08:21 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Posted: 4/18/2006 12:17:09 PM EDT

[#42]

Always shoot 87 times!

(I can't believe I'm the first to answer this idiotic question with 87!)

Posted: 4/18/2006 12:24:08 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
One interesting tactic I have read is that you should immediately move sideways to the threat when shooting starts. I have trained to do a double-tap and walk either right or left, quickly but steadily. I have also trained to hit a knee if I bump into something.

Honestly, at my low level of proficiency, I have moved to a higher-capacity weapon - G23 to G19. I wouldn't go to a 1911 unless/until I get a WHOLE lot better.

ETA: I do believe that any firing of the weapon is useful, even paper-punching range time. It gets you used to the weapon, used to the flash, etc. Hell, just the muscle memory of pulling the trigger has to help.

Lateral movement is supposed to be the second best way not to get hit. Do you know the big step little step routine? Basically you don't want to cross your feet.

Sounds like you need some good training. Trust me, it makes a WORLD of difference in your shooting. I have 120 hrs of good professional instruction: basically enough to know just how little I know.

Posted: 4/19/2006 3:53:56 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
I regularly practice Mozambique drills, and with a single assailant, it's going to be a double tap or Mozambique, then evaluate without lowering the weapon. If he's still standing at the end of that, he gets more lead love.

Multiple assailants mean a similar reaction. That's good. That's less for me to screw up. Everybody gets two rounds if possible, then go back through to take up the slack.

A good question was brought to mind here, such as: "If four guys are all armed with knives and attacking you, how do you work it out?" Closest guy gets two, then next closest, and so on, dealing with remaining threats as they come, depending on if #1 needs remedial training, or #3 or #4 needs to see the flashy thing in my hand. Lest you laugh at my scenario, it DID occur in a Burger King here a few weeks ago. No CCW'ers involved, unfortunately.

While I think and hope I would do the same, I wonder how SGT York pulled it off the other way around!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How many times will you shoot?

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