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Posted: 6/25/2010 1:32:16 PM EDT
I was just wondering how many rounds of SD ammo you guys fire through your pistol before considering it a "reliable" SD ammo for your gun?
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 1:43:46 PM EDT
[#1]
I feel there is some flaw to the logic that X rounds merits a rubber stamp. When I generally get a new pistol, It won't take but a session or three to push 500-1000 rounds down the pipe, and that usually is accomplished in 2 weeks (unless ammo is rare). I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable relying upon one out of the box, so there is some minimal threshhold, but I don't quantify that with an arbitrary number. If a new weapon gobbles a mere 200 rounds without a hiccup, that might instill confidence on a preliminary basis, but you'd better believe that another 300 would be due within a week. On the other hand, some weapons do everything you ask from them while initially clean, and then things get iffy after X rounds. Sometimes mag(s) are an issue, sometimes ammo. I suppose each platform merits seperate attention with different factors. Once I am satisfied with the overall performance, there remains the never ending task of ensuring all components and accessories are running reliably. So for me it is more of an individual process.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 1:47:14 PM EDT
[#2]
I was told 200 rnds with no problems in one outing and its gtg. Dont know if thats true though.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 1:58:26 PM EDT
[#3]
The pistols in mention are good to go as far as overall round through each. (1k+/ea) I was thinking more along the lines of the ammo itself for JHPs and any feeding issues, hangups, etc.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 2:42:59 PM EDT
[#4]
With ammo prices the way they are 20 is good for me.  
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 2:58:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
With ammo prices the way they are 20 is good for me.  


You know, in a perfect world, sure, I'd want to put a 1000 rounds through it. Does that make it reliable on that 1001st shot? Who knows.
I shoot 50 rounds of whatever SD ammo I'm going to carry. If it runs, it's good to go for me. I'm going to get that first one off anyhow.

Link Posted: 6/25/2010 3:10:59 PM EDT
[#6]
The above poster saying that there should be no magic number for reliability has a point, but who in the hell puts 500 rounds of the ammo they are going to carry for defense through their pistol before carrying said ammo?  Not this guy.  Maybe a box, and with fast follow-up shots to simulate what might happen in a SD situation.  



To me, what is more important is how many rounds you have through the gun, and is the GUN reliable.  
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 3:22:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
The above poster saying that there should be no magic number for reliability has a point, but who in the hell puts 500 rounds of the ammo they are going to carry for defense through their pistol before carrying said ammo?  Not this guy.  Maybe a box, and with fast follow-up shots to simulate what might happen in a SD situation.  

To me, what is more important is how many rounds you have through the gun, and is the GUN reliable.  

I agree with you and the poster above you. 20 to 50 is good for me on SD ammo....its to expensive to blast away all day with.
I shoot the lower cost FMJ stuff through the Kimber 45 and G19....maybe 50 (most often) to 100 on an outing to keep in practice though.

Link Posted: 6/25/2010 4:05:06 PM EDT
[#8]
1 full mag, maybe two.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 5:15:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I was told 200 rnds with no problems in one outing and its gtg. Dont know if thats true though.


Thats my benchmark.  Shooting 200 rounds of factory defensive ammo is expensive though, and some people like to practice with what they carry.  I'm thinking real long and hard and using some kind of cheap, hollowpoint cast lead bullet for this reason.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 8:02:59 PM EDT
[#10]
It also depends on what kind of gun were talking about here.  I only carry Glocks and have yet to find an ammo that they wouldn't feed.  If we're talking about a...more finicky type of gun (not naming any names) I would want to see a lot more rounds through it w/o a failure to call it good.
Link Posted: 6/25/2010 10:58:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 6/26/2010 12:59:07 AM EDT
[#12]
If the weapon has proven reliable in the past, I'll trust new ammo after just a few mags. I have had certain types of ammo not work in otherwise reliable guns, for example Wolf won't cycle my 11.5" AR with the can off but will with it on, but this type of issue usually crops up right away. I've had guns that only like to work when really, really clean, like the Kimber I sold. Again, it usually only takes a few mags for the problem to show up.

If I bought a new pistol, I'd like to see it function correctly with no stoppages for at least 300 rounds of practice ammo and at least 100 rounds of self defense ammo. If it is a gun and ammo combo that I know to be reliable, I might be okay with less. For example, I know that Glocks eat anything and my Glocks have eaten plenty of 180gr Gold Dot so if I got a new Glock in .40 I'd put a two or three boxes of ball through it and a mag or two of Gold Dot and call it good. Same goes for a revolver. Either it goes or it doesn't.

I guess what I'm saying is that a problem that doesn't crop up in 50-100 rounds might not show up in 5000 rounds and at some point you really aren't testing so much as training.
Link Posted: 6/26/2010 4:16:51 AM EDT
[#13]
I would say it isn't a matter of putting X number of the defensive round of choice through a pistol intended for SD/HD. I am for at least 500+ rounds of break in, which helps smooth out small burrs and machining marks, as well as break in the springs. Reliable feeding of one's preferred defensive JHP is important, but after the mentioned break in period, if there are no failures in 60 or so rounds of your carry round, it is pretty safe to call it GTG at that point.
Link Posted: 6/26/2010 4:38:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
The above poster saying that there should be no magic number for reliability has a point, but who in the hell puts 500 rounds of the ammo they are going to carry for defense through their pistol before carrying said ammo?  Not this guy.  Maybe a box, and with fast follow-up shots to simulate what might happen in a SD situation.  

To me, what is more important is how many rounds you have through the gun, and is the GUN reliable.  


+1
Link Posted: 6/26/2010 5:20:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The above poster saying that there should be no magic number for reliability has a point, but who in the hell puts 500 rounds of the ammo they are going to carry for defense through their pistol before carrying said ammo?  Not this guy.  Maybe a box, and with fast follow-up shots to simulate what might happen in a SD situation.  

To me, what is more important is how many rounds you have through the gun, and is the GUN reliable.  


+1


yeah i'd think most moder SD rounds are reliable.

i've put about 2k rounds thru g26 and i've never FTF in anything from SD ammo to shitty brown bear. if brown bear goes pop everytime a $1 a round SD round better fucking work :)

Link Posted: 6/27/2010 8:35:58 PM EDT
[#16]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

The above poster saying that there should be no magic number for reliability has a point, but who in the hell puts 500 rounds of the ammo they are going to carry for defense through their pistol before carrying said ammo?  Not this guy.  Maybe a box, and with fast follow-up shots to simulate what might happen in a SD situation.  



To me, what is more important is how many rounds you have through the gun, and is the GUN reliable.  




+1




yeah i'd think most moder SD rounds are reliable.



i've put about 2k rounds thru g26 and i've never FTF in anything from SD ammo to shitty brown bear. if brown bear goes pop everytime a $1 a round SD round better fucking work :)






No kidding.  If I ever have a ftf with my nice expensive SD ammo, I'm gonna be pretty upset.

I'll call Winchester and be like, "Brown bear works... what's your excuse?"

 
Link Posted: 6/27/2010 11:29:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Just playing devil's advocate here, but realistically is there really a need to shoot more rounds than the maximum you would carry on your person in any given that you'd use the SD ammo?  If you only carry one mag in the gun and two reloads, does it really matter whether it tends to choke on round 387?  

In practice, I'll agree with what the above poster said about a proven weapon system with FMJ, if my particular pistol shoots well with hard ball, about two boxes of SD ammo, preferably from different lots, should tell you whether your gun has any issues with the particular ammunition type, and differing lots gets you closer to ensuring that you didn't get a fluke lot that happens to work when others don't.  After that, I'll run the SD ammunition every now and again during training as an alternative to rotating mags and ammo and to confirm it still works, usually once every couple of months.  

If you really want to get super-serial about it, you'd need to log different ammunition types and determine what you feel is an acceptable MRBS and MRBF for a particular platform / ammunition combination for your purposes, which I suspect would net you a lot of different answers if you were to do a poll here.  

FWIW, my 1984 Italian Beretta 92F using Beretta mags has been boringly reliable, and at this point, I'd probably be satisfied by one magazine full of a particular ammunition before I was willing to stick it in the holster.  

~Augee
Link Posted: 6/28/2010 5:08:09 AM EDT
[#18]
every unfired round is questionable.
Link Posted: 6/28/2010 1:37:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Just playing devil's advocate here, but realistically is there really a need to shoot more rounds than the maximum you would carry on your person in any given that you'd use the SD ammo?  If you only carry one mag in the gun and two reloads, does it really matter whether it tends to choke on round 387?  
In practice, I'll agree with what the above poster said about a proven weapon system with FMJ, if my particular pistol shoots well with hard ball, about two boxes of SD ammo, preferably from different lots, should tell you whether your gun has any issues with the particular ammunition type, and differing lots gets you closer to ensuring that you didn't get a fluke lot that happens to work when others don't.  After that, I'll run the SD ammunition every now and again during training as an alternative to rotating mags and ammo and to confirm it still works, usually once every couple of months.  

If you really want to get super-serial about it, you'd need to log different ammunition types and determine what you feel is an acceptable MRBS and MRBF for a particular platform / ammunition combination for your purposes, which I suspect would net you a lot of different answers if you were to do a poll here.  

FWIW, my 1984 Italian Beretta 92F using Beretta mags has been boringly reliable, and at this point, I'd probably be satisfied by one magazine full of a particular ammunition before I was willing to stick it in the holster.  

~Augee


Ummm, the gun isn't keeping count. If you ever find a gun that reliably has a FTF consistently on the same recurring round number, you let us know. My truck would probably run fine to the grocery store with olive oil instead of 10W-30 but that sure doesn't mean it's GTG for the long run.  

Link Posted: 6/28/2010 4:02:21 PM EDT
[#20]
At least 100.
Link Posted: 6/28/2010 4:14:52 PM EDT
[#21]
I will shoot 50-100 rounds of range ammo and then run 5 rounds of defense stuff in a dirty gun. The reason for 5 rounds is simply economic, I can't afford to run 20-100 rounds of defensive ammo through a pistol. I figure, if I am going to have a failure it will be in a dirty gun regardless of 20 or more rounds. I wish I could run a 100 rounds of SD stuff.
Link Posted: 6/29/2010 4:42:57 AM EDT
[#22]
maybe this will help...

years ago i purchased a Glock 19 to be my dedicated CCW. here's what i did:

after the initial cleaning, i took a trip to the range and the first 200 rounds through my G19 were WWB 115gr. FMJ. my thinking here is to get the pistol hot and dirty and make sure the supplied magazines function properly. i also believe that these first 200 rounds will help to smooth everything out. as expected, the G19 performed without any issues.

next...

i ran a box (20rds.) of quality HPs (insert your intended SD carry ammo here). i checked for reliability and took note to point of aim vs point of impact with this specific load.

next...

i took the pistol home, gave it a good cleaning, little lube, loaded the magazines with ammo and i was 100% confident that i was GTG.


Link Posted: 6/29/2010 4:52:33 AM EDT
[#23]
If its a new PISTOL I will fire 500rds that day  But thats when my range was my yard

To get the feel

To see how it shoots

To see if it runs on different types of ammo

AFTER its proven 100%

Then Im happy with 50rds  to 100rds  for a test to feed


A wheel gun is different for Me



BTW GUYS


Buying a Dillon Reloader was the only real way I could practice combat shooting
I would shoot everyday  since my Range was in my yard. ( country boy)



A Dillon reloader will save you lots of money
Plus you can make more accurate loads for your weapon


Even the  LEE are pretty good and cheap
Link Posted: 6/29/2010 9:56:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just playing devil's advocate here, but realistically is there really a need to shoot more rounds than the maximum you would carry on your person in any given that you'd use the SD ammo?  If you only carry one mag in the gun and two reloads, does it really matter whether it tends to choke on round 387?  
In practice, I'll agree with what the above poster said about a proven weapon system with FMJ, if my particular pistol shoots well with hard ball, about two boxes of SD ammo, preferably from different lots, should tell you whether your gun has any issues with the particular ammunition type, and differing lots gets you closer to ensuring that you didn't get a fluke lot that happens to work when others don't.  After that, I'll run the SD ammunition every now and again during training as an alternative to rotating mags and ammo and to confirm it still works, usually once every couple of months.  

If you really want to get super-serial about it, you'd need to log different ammunition types and determine what you feel is an acceptable MRBS and MRBF for a particular platform / ammunition combination for your purposes, which I suspect would net you a lot of different answers if you were to do a poll here.  

FWIW, my 1984 Italian Beretta 92F using Beretta mags has been boringly reliable, and at this point, I'd probably be satisfied by one magazine full of a particular ammunition before I was willing to stick it in the holster.  

~Augee


Ummm, the gun isn't keeping count. If you ever find a gun that reliably has a FTF consistently on the same recurring round number, you let us know. My truck would probably run fine to the grocery store with olive oil instead of 10W-30 but that sure doesn't mean it's GTG for the long run.  




No, the gun isn't keeping count, but you could be, and again, I'm just playing devil's advocate; as someone in another thread was spouting off about "modern reliability standards," without ever defining what those were.  If they're published somewhere, I certainly don't know about them.  The point I'm getting at is the same one that's often brought up about the M4 dust chamber tests with regards to MRBS and MRBF, Mean Rounds Between Stoppage / Failure.  My question is, does it realistically matter to the average self defense shooter who carries a mag in the gun and one or two reloads whether the mean rounds between stoppage is 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,500 rounds?  Sure you "want" the best reliability, but like the M4, how much "more" reliable does the average carbine need to be with a required MRBS of 600 rounds and MRBF of 3,800, and a demonstrated MRBS of 3,592 and MRBF of 6,076, bear in mind that the Unit Basic Load per soldier is 210 rounds,  though many will carry upwards of three hundred.  The do not, however, carry 3,592 rounds on their person.  To put into even more perspective, at fifteen rounds per minute, the high sustained rate of fire for the M4, you would have to maintain that ROF for four hours firing fifteen rounds a minute before you hit the MRBS.  

Do I mean to say that it's not possible for the gun to malfunction before or after the MRBS?  Not at all, but as you said, the gun aint keeping count, nor are most people going to send thousands of rounds down range in order to determine scientifically what the MRBS and MRBF of their chosen platform and ammunition combination is.  However, if you can consistently get through one basic load with it, a basic load being the upper limit of what you would ever have on your person when it was needed, I would suggest that you could realistically assume that the MRBS is above the number of rounds you will ever fire in a single engagement, and therefore irrelevant to your concerns.  Add in some penny pinching and high ammo costs, and one might only be able to afford to do it once and pay to play on the gamble that - well, it's proven it can fire as many rounds as I can carry - do I need to waste any more money "burning" expensive SD ammunition just to prove that it "works," or can I reasonably expect that the MRBS is more than I carry?  For starters, I suspect that the average MRBS of most modern handguns on the market, even the ones we consider to be "crap" probably surpasses what the majority of people carry at one time, essentially, once you make sure your gun and ammo combination is not a fluke that simply doesn't like each other, you'll most likely be in good shape.  

~Augee  




Link Posted: 6/29/2010 10:43:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:

Ummm, the gun isn't keeping count. If you ever find a gun that reliably has a FTF consistently on the same recurring round number, you let us know. My truck would probably run fine to the grocery store with olive oil instead of 10W-30 but that sure doesn't mean it's GTG for the long run.  



Bad analogy.  The oil stays in the engine.   Each round of ammo fired is a discrete event.
Link Posted: 6/30/2010 9:55:35 PM EDT
[#26]
+1 (with a gun that's proven reliable with 100 or so rounds of FMJ first)




Quoted:


1 full mag, maybe two.






 
Link Posted: 6/30/2010 10:13:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Yep, 2 full mags for me (basically a box, depending on the gun/caliber)
Link Posted: 6/30/2010 11:18:46 PM EDT
[#28]
I am fine with a box run through the gun.  I am shooting Glocks so I feel pretty confident in them.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 12:06:08 AM EDT
[#29]
I'll run a couple mags through.  One thing I'll do to help verify feeding while conserving ammo is to stagger the rounds in the magazine, 1 ball, 1 SD round, 1 ball, 1 SD round, etc.  Start with a ball in the chamber and a SD round on the top of the magazine.  Fire the ball round, cycle the slide to eject the SD round and feed a ball, fire the ball round and repeat until finished.  This can be done a couple of times on the rounds.  Too much and you can introduce setback into the bullets from the repeated feedings.  But after running them through once or twice and you've been able to verify they feed ok, load up a couple mags with the SD ammo and run some drills.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 1:22:52 AM EDT
[#30]
It isn't so much the price of the ammunition but the scarcity of good HP ammo that makes it difficult for me to run the box or two that I'd like to run through them to be certain.  So I run the piss out of it with FMJ's then run some of the SD ammo through to see if it chokes and call it a day.



Someone a while back suggested to load one round of SD ammo in the mag, and top it off with a FMJ, fire the FMJ and see if the SD ammo feeds properly.  If ammo is short or $ tight it could possibly be a method to at least develop some idea of whether or not it will feed.






Link Posted: 7/1/2010 1:07:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Nobody said 87?
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 5:50:33 PM EDT
[#32]
I usually run two magazines through the pistol and if no malfunctions occur I consider the SD rounds gtg. This is of course including having zero malfunctions with all the target ammo I run previously though.
Link Posted: 7/2/2010 3:39:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Normally 2. First box to check function and accuracy. Double-tap the second one.
Link Posted: 7/2/2010 1:58:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
It isn't so much the price of the ammunition but the scarcity of good HP ammo that makes it difficult for me to run the box or two that I'd like to run through them to be certain.  So I run the piss out of it with FMJ's then run some of the SD ammo through to see if it chokes and call it a day.

Someone a while back suggested to load one round of SD ammo in the mag, and top it off with a FMJ, fire the FMJ and see if the SD ammo feeds properly.  If ammo is short or $ tight it could possibly be a method to at least develop some idea of whether or not it will feed.




I like the way you think. This is what I am going to start doing every time I go to the range. Especially when I have SD rounds that have been chambered 4 or 5 times and the bullet has a little set back. I figure if the gun will fire these with no problem it should fire rounds without set-back just as well.
Link Posted: 7/3/2010 2:05:33 PM EDT
[#35]
200 rounds bare minimum
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 11:42:19 AM EDT
[#36]
I read a thread here a while ago about testing carry ammo on the cheap.  I think he focused mainly on the gun being able to feed the carry ammo.  Let's see if I get this right.  If not someone please chime in.

Cliff notes:

Buy a box of your prefered high dollar HP carry ammo.
Buy/reload a bunch of quality ammo in same weight and as close to the specs of the carry ammo you can.
Load mag alternating the two.  i.e. FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP and so on.

Now you shoot a FMJ to make sure it feeds your HP carry ammo correctly.  If it fed fine then rack the slide to eject the HP, loading a FMJ and repeat that whole sequence a hundred times or so.

This lets you test the feeding of your ammo at a much cheaper price than just shooting box after box of high dollar carry ammo.

I think he then shot a whole box of just the HP ammo to make sure it had enough power to load the next HP round.




ETA: I just noticed jmreagan saw that same thread.  Help me out if I missed something.

Link Posted: 7/19/2010 11:50:38 AM EDT
[#37]
I asked over in GD if someone has a link to that thread.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 11:21:43 AM EDT
[#38]
Id agree with the 20-50 rounds with some ammo costing upwards of 40 or sometimes more dollars its too expensive to shoot a million SD rounds down range.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:06:16 PM EDT
[#39]
I've always carried glocks right out of the box. Never been wrong, I wouldn't do that with any other pistol. A few mags rapid fired will usually prove reliability.

Link Posted: 7/21/2010 8:20:11 AM EDT
[#40]
I do like three or four mags worth.  When I take a SD gun to the range, I shoot my SD ammo out of it first to make sure it works clean.  After about 100-150 rounds of range ammo I do accuracy test slow fire from a rest to see how accurate the ammo is. Lastly, after about 300 rounds of range ammo, I do a mag dump to make sure it functions in a dirty gun and cycles as fast as I can pull.

After that I'm good.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 12:06:29 PM EDT
[#41]
200 rounds of WWB or whatever is cheap then 50rnds of speer gold dots in whatever caliber.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 12:52:54 PM EDT
[#42]
I shoot a full magazine through each of the magazines I intend to use for SD.  If I could afford it, I'd like to go to at least 2 mags worth, one slow fire, one quick.
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