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Posted: 7/29/2017 8:48:05 PM EDT
Thinking about trying some Buffalo Bore 125 grain .357 magnum.

On paper, the round is all out nuclear, with a 1700+ FPS velocity.

Yet they insist that your gun won't KB, they even tell you not to even ask about that.

How do they do this?

I assume it's something to do with proprietary powders that have a good pressure sustain to continue acceleration as the bullet travels down the barrel?

Have been curious about this for some time.

Thanks for any replies.
Link Posted: 7/29/2017 9:42:00 PM EDT
[#1]
IN!
I think it's the powder and plenty of disclaimers.
Link Posted: 7/29/2017 9:58:19 PM EDT
[#2]
IIRC triple base powder and barrel lengths.

I shot some of their 10mm, primers were starting to get a LITTLE flat, but still had some roundness. 

Not the double tap style like the .38 super I tried where half the primers showed high pressure.
Link Posted: 7/29/2017 10:20:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Not a supreme reloader by any means.  That said, I'd bet progressive powders, lots of disclaimers, and yes, I'll bet a healthy diet is hard on guns.  

That said, I've bought 3 Glock 10MM's in the last month.   I plan on buying some BB, Underwood, and Doubletap ammo to test.  If the hard cast 220 gr. Loads kill bears.......I'll bet they'll eff up a bad guy real good too.
Link Posted: 7/29/2017 11:19:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Weaksauce load.

Link Posted: 7/30/2017 1:27:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:

How do they do this?
.
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I suspect that if you actually shoot over a chronograph you will find their velocity claims to be wildly exaggerated.  Or fired out of a fixed breach, long barrel like a Thomson Contender.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 2:41:06 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


I suspect that if you actually shoot over a chronograph you will find their velocity claims to be wildly exaggerated.  Or fired out of a fixed breach, long barrel like a Thomson Contender.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

How do they do this?
.


I suspect that if you actually shoot over a chronograph you will find their velocity claims to be wildly exaggerated.  Or fired out of a fixed breach, long barrel like a Thomson Contender.
Most people that test it find it right for the barrel length, if not a little faster. BB has a good reputation for that.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 2:47:21 AM EDT
[#7]
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Bunch of flash and recoil for what gain?
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 7:55:41 AM EDT
[#8]
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Out of a rifle, is my guess.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 9:22:41 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


Out of a rifle, is my guess.
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It's out of a 10-inch barrel.

Link Posted: 7/30/2017 11:35:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I suspect that if you actually shoot over a chronograph you will find their velocity claims to be wildly exaggerated.  Or fired out of a fixed breach, long barrel like a Thomson Contender.
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You suspect wrong, try again.  A lot exceed listed velocity.  Lots of YouTube testing to watch.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 12:18:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I suspect that if you actually shoot over a chronograph you will find their velocity claims to be wildly exaggerated.  Or fired out of a fixed breach, long barrel like a Thomson Contender.
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Buffalo Bore actually lists the guns and velocities for their loads. They have a good reputation.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 12:58:06 PM EDT
[#12]
I carry their bear loads in my taurus raging bull 2.25 inch light and it kicks like hell but the factory (near me) said the frame is rated for them.

They will wreck some guns at some times
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 1:10:25 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
I carry their bear loads in my taurus raging bull 2.25 inch light and it kicks like hell but the factory (near me) said the frame is rated for them.

They will wreck some guns at some times
View Quote
That can't be fun.....at all.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 6:49:50 PM EDT
[#14]
To answer the original question. Many calibers have been downloaded over the years. The 357 mag from Buffalo Bore and Underwood are about what the original ballistics were in 1935. Over time companies reduce the velocity for liability or for new, smaller guns or lower quality firearms that eventually circulate over time. Most 357 mag ammo from a 158 grain load will only make 1250 fps. The 10mm folks will agree with this. Also for an example, the 7.62x38 (Nagant Revolver) from PPU and Fiocchi with 98 grain projectiles are only traveling at 700 fps. Late 1970s surplus ammo was going around 950 fps with a 108 grain bullet. Look at their 32 S&W Long and 38 S&W also. Buffalo Bore and Underwood and similar companies are not necessarily overloading their ammo but simply loading it to original specs when the mainstream ammo companies have decided to download the velocity.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 6:59:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To answer the original question. Many calibers have been downloaded over the years. The 357 mag from Buffalo Bore and Underwood are about what the original ballistics were in 1935. Over time companies reduce the velocity for liability or for new, smaller guns or lower quality firearms that eventually circulate over time. Most 357 mag ammo from a 158 grain load will only make 1250 fps. The 10mm folks will agree with this. Also for an example, the 7.62x38 (Nagant Revolver) from PPU and Fiocchi with 98 grain projectiles are only traveling at 700 fps. Late 1970s surplus ammo was going around 950 fps with a 108 grain bullet. Look at their 32 S&W Long and 38 S&W also. Buffalo Bore and Underwood and similar companies are not necessarily overloading their ammo but simply loading it to original specs when the mainstream ammo companies have decided to download the velocity.
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Well put.  10mm was a perfect example used.   Only 3-4 companies out there loading them to what they were.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 8:16:39 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
I carry their bear loads in my taurus raging bull 2.25 inch light and it kicks like hell but the factory (near me) said the frame is rated for them.

They will wreck some guns at some times
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Do you carry hardcast for self defense?

Also thats impressive, I cant inagine what the recoil is like lol.
Link Posted: 7/31/2017 11:38:19 AM EDT
[#17]
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It's out of a 10-inch barrel.

http://i.imgur.com/EMcvef0.png
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It is absolutely remarkable how close to 300blk that chart is.

My powder charges, velocities and bullet weights are all almost indentical from a 10" barrel. (10.5" BA w/ ProChrono).

.357 magnum is no joke.  I have dies for it I need to get a revolver in it asap.
Link Posted: 7/31/2017 4:53:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 5:57:08 PM EDT
[#19]
I don't think any of the  BB/Underwood/DoubleTap brands are members of SAAMI  ... I'd be highly surprised if they did their own in house pressure testing. So, I'd say they are probably exceeding industry pressure standards in many cases, to get that extra velocity. Some guns can likely handle that. Some can not.
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 6:10:34 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
I don't think any of the  BB/Underwood/DoubleTap brands are members of SAAMI  ... I'd be highly surprised if they did their own in house pressure testing. So, I'd say they are probably exceeding industry pressure standards in many cases, to get that extra velocity. Some guns can likely handle that. Some can not.
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So you're (essentially) saying that neither company has liability insurance?
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 6:33:44 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
So you're (essentially) saying that neither company has liability insurance?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't think any of the  BB/Underwood/DoubleTap brands are members of SAAMI  ... I'd be highly surprised if they did their own in house pressure testing. So, I'd say they are probably exceeding industry pressure standards in many cases, to get that extra velocity. Some guns can likely handle that. Some can not.
So you're (essentially) saying that neither company has liability insurance?
Pretty bold statement.   Maybe some examples of guns blowing up due to these, may lend credibility.
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 6:45:13 PM EDT
[#22]
My 6" 686

125 gr Rem SJHP
22gr w296 magnum powder
1639 fps aver.
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 7:15:51 PM EDT
[#23]
My favorite .357 BB load is their 180 grain hardcast at 1,500 fps.

Shot out of my 6" Ruger gp100.
Link Posted: 8/4/2017 12:17:01 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
Pretty bold statement.   Maybe some examples of guns blowing up due to these, may lend credibility.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't think any of the  BB/Underwood/DoubleTap brands are members of SAAMI  ... I'd be highly surprised if they did their own in house pressure testing. So, I'd say they are probably exceeding industry pressure standards in many cases, to get that extra velocity. Some guns can likely handle that. Some can not.
So you're (essentially) saying that neither company has liability insurance?
Pretty bold statement.   Maybe some examples of guns blowing up due to these, may lend credibility.
Has nothing to do with insurance, and everything to do with standards.

I will give you a hint: if they make a "+P" or "+P+" load for a cartridge that has never had either designation (through SAAMI), that may be a clue.

I don't care what you do with your guns, or what ammo you buy. I'm not going to badmouth all these manufacturers just because "I don't like them"... I'm simply saying, they are not following SAAMI standards, and therefore, you don't know what pressures their loads are generating. That is how they get high velocities in some of these cases. I have pushed the limits with my own handloads. More velocity isn't always the answer to every problem.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 5:50:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Otherrat, it appears that may be the case.  Unless there is a secret SAAMI spec for .32 ACP (.32 auto) +P I can't find.  Also, the last publication from SAAMI (2015) lists member organizations, associate member organizations, and supporting member organizations.  Buffalo Bore is not a SAAMI member.  Before the retaliatory flaming begins, I am not saying that means don't buy it.  Anyone whose read a reloading manual understands they are not forced to comply with the guidance on pressures and max loads.  I'd say this situation is similarly unwise.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 9:56:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Has there ever been a single documented case of a "Buffaloed" gun?  (KB)
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 10:21:03 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
Has there ever been a single documented case of a "Buffaloed" gun?  (KB)
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That's what I was attempting to ask....just not as awesomely.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 11:21:24 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:
Otherrat, it appears that may be the case.  Unless there is a secret SAAMI spec for .32 ACP (.32 auto) +P I can't find.  Also, the last publication from SAAMI (2015) lists member organizations, associate member organizations, and supporting member organizations.  Buffalo Bore is not a SAAMI member.  Before the retaliatory flaming begins, I am not saying that means don't buy it.  Anyone whose read a reloading manual understands they are not forced to comply with the guidance on pressures and max loads.  I'd say this situation is similarly unwise.
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I think the only cartridges that have SAAMI designations for +P are .38 Special, .38 Super,  9mm Luger/NATO/Parabellem, and .257 Roberts (IIRC). I seem to recall seeing .40 S&W loads by Buffalo Bore that were marked as +P, the .32 ACP load I mentioned before... and one other I can't remember now. The problem is you have no way of knowing what pressures any given load from these companies is generating. There is no standard for .32 ACP "+P"... if you accept that most +P loads are~10% above standard pressure, that is probably close to what they are loaded at... assuming these companies are going by the 10% rule. But that is the problem: No standard. it could be 5%... or 10%... or 50%...

I don't think Buffalo Bore or the like are going to blow up every gun they get stuck in. The cases of one of these hot loads blowing up a gun are certainly rare... it may be possible it's never happened. I don't know the answer to that question, specifically. But loads exceeding standard pressures WILL accelerate wear on the guns they are fired in, and often times the additional recoil, blast, and wear on the guns isn't worth the 50 or 100fps additional velocity you might squeeze out of them. It's up to the user to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. Remember the principle of diminishing returns. Buffalo Bore makes some pretty decent ammo. So does Underwood. It may be possible they are using very specific powder, and generating their own data, and maybe even doing their own pressure testing. But I have not seen that info made public. Bottom line: You don't know for sure what you are getting.

Squeezing a few more FPS out of my handloads, knowing full well if I screw up, it's all on me, is one thing. Selling those loads to Joe Schmoe down the street to shoot out of his re-chambered Welby revolver is another...  Between lawyers and insurance these days. Most modern guns can fire loads that are a bit higher pressure than "standard" without blowing anything up. Wear will almost certainly be accelerated. Like shooting a bunch of hot 125gr .357 Magnums through older S&W revolvers ended with flame cutting top straps and frame stretching etc. Everything has a price.

This is coming from a guy who shot a significant amount of 127gr +P+ Ranger Talon 9mm through a Kel-Tec P-11 back in the day...
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:13:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Hunter suing Glock for $1 million over ‘exploding pistol’.

Guess what brand of ammo he was using.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:22:04 PM EDT
[#30]
When Doc Roberts actually tested .357 Magnum ammo he recommended a controlled expansion 180Gn Bullet. high velocity 125 GN JHP doesn't get you anything but excessive recoil, muzzle flash and a serious risk of under penetration.

Neither muzzle velocity or muzzle energy are wound mechanisms.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 3:10:00 AM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
Hunter suing Glock for $1 million over ‘exploding pistol’.

Guess what brand of ammo he was using.
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if that gun in the pic is the actual gun in question, dude should have put the round that blew up in the chamber, not the muzzle.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 3:54:56 AM EDT
[#32]
The answer to the question is: BB pays attention to consistent loading within maximum SAMMI specifications. Most mainstream ammo company's load down from max SAMMI specs as a cover your ass measure to help mitigate bullshit law suits. You realy do not hear of all that many KB's from BB compared to others.
BB is also known for keeping everyone informed when a gun specific issue that is ammo related comes to their attention. For example: known unsupported chamber issues causing cases to split.

BTW.. the KB on the Glock .. is most likely an over pressure caused by a barrel obstruction. Not a pure over load. The barrel is ruptured toward the muzzle not the chamber. Every pure over load I have ever seen exploded @ the chamber or within the first inch of the chamber.

For the haters: think about this. If you owned a company that made a reputation by selling ammo loaded to max SAMMI specs (= performance). Don't you think you would double your efforts to ensure that every round that left the factory was consistent....? They Do. The last thing they want is frivolous law suits just because they advertise max pressure ammo.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:39:48 AM EDT
[#33]
I regularly use Buffalo Bore's 158 grain LSWCHP's standard pressure and the +P version in my vintage "J" frames for concealed pocket carry. I shoot them semi-regularly too for practice, at least a cylinder full every range trip. They are accurate, have almost no flash, and are far from punishing. While the Plus P's do feel like I'm shooting .357's... they are far from unsafe and have never caused a problem... The original old school .38Spec load(s) were right in the realm of what BB is loading these up to. It wasn't until .38Spec got watered down to the industry standard weak sauce of today that we've been accustomed to... do we go bug eyed seeing these BB numbers. As to the +P caliber loads that there is no industry standard like .32+P and .40+P I don't know how BB gets these standards/specs. But I'm sure Sundles extensively tests these loads before putting them out there for sale! It's his ass if there is a ration of KB's. I've talked to him more than a few times and he isn't the kind of guy to accept such risks; that I do know...

I also carry BB's .45Super Hard Cast Outdoorsman loads exclusively in my Smith 625 for woods carry. It's a 255 grain truncated cone Hard Cast pill loaded to 1100 fps. I've shot quite a bit of this ammo in the last 5 years mostly thru a converted 1911 but more recently with the 625. It's the most accurate pistol caliber ammo I've ever shot. Stuck cases (revolvers), flattened primers, bulged case heads (semi-auto's), and horrible accuracy are all indicative of over pressure loadings. Never once have I had any of the aforementioned in my 1911 or 625, nor with the .38Spec loads in my J frames. These are the two calibers I can comfortably say I have first hand experience with and can fully recommend. I have no problem trying any of the other ammo BB has in it's line-up.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 11:06:03 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
if that gun in the pic is the actual gun in question, dude should have put the round that blew up in the chamber, not the muzzle.
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Yeah I think the guess is muzzle was clogged, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 1:42:45 PM EDT
[#35]
When I worked security and was on a revolver post I carried a S &W Model 15 K-frame loaded with the 158 LSWC-HP +P
My back up Detective Special and Agent were loaded with the same as well. Good shooting load and is a serious round for defense.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:54:52 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:

When I worked security and was on a revolver post I carried a S &W Model 15 K-frame loaded with the 158 LSWC-HP +P
My back up Detective Special and Agent were loaded with the same as well. Good shooting load and is a serious round for defense.
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The 158 grain .38 Special +P is the most under-rated and/or forgotten round out there.

I would NOT want to get hit with it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2017 11:11:47 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:

The 158 grain .38 Special +P is the most under-rated and/or forgotten round out there.


I would NOT want to get hit with it.
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Quoted:

When I worked security and was on a revolver post I carried a S &W Model 15 K-frame loaded with the 158 LSWC-HP +P
My back up Detective Special and Agent were loaded with the same as well. Good shooting load and is a serious round for defense.

The 158 grain .38 Special +P is the most under-rated and/or forgotten round out there.


I would NOT want to get hit with it.
Buffalo Bore's version of that round is nasty. It's a deep cavity hollow point, made of soft cast lead, of the semi-wad cutter profile. It pushes deep while expanding violently. It's definitely my favorite round to carry in my "J" frame. It's what the .38Special was initially intended to do. And a big hell no I wouldn't want to get hit with it either!
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 8:32:57 AM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:


The 158 grain .38 Special +P is the most under-rated and/or forgotten round out there.

I would NOT want to get hit with it.
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Isn't that what they call the "old FBI load"?    It's a known badass.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 10:46:33 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:
When Doc Roberts actually tested .357 Magnum ammo he recommended a controlled expansion 180Gn Bullet. high velocity 125 GN JHP doesn't get you anything but excessive recoil, muzzle flash and a serious risk of under penetration.

Neither muzzle velocity or muzzle energy are wound mechanisms.
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Not to mention quickly eroding/cutting your top strap at the barrel cylinder gap!
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 11:07:45 PM EDT
[#40]
I had an epic kaboom using Underwood ammo a month ago.  The barrel is still being tested to see if there are any clues as to what went wrong.  Thank god I only got a small blister and scratch on my trigger finger.
Link Posted: 9/10/2017 12:05:11 AM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:


It's out of a 10-inch barrel.

http://i.imgur.com/EMcvef0.png
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That's one of the older loads. A lot of those loads have been scrubbed from loading manuals.

Sometime in the early 90s 357 Magnum went from 40000 cup to 35000 cup.
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 9:14:25 AM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
That can't be fun.....at all.
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Quoted:
I carry their bear loads in my taurus raging bull 2.25 inch light and it kicks like hell but the factory (near me) said the frame is rated for them.

They will wreck some guns at some times
That can't be fun.....at all.
It certainly won't be fun for the bear if he hits it square up, hahahaha!
Link Posted: 9/15/2017 9:25:28 AM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
I had an epic kaboom using Underwood ammo a month ago.  The barrel is still being tested to see if there are any clues as to what went wrong.  Thank god I only got a small blister and scratch on my trigger finger.
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I'm glad you're OK. I bet you checked your boxers after you calmed down didn't you? It's no fun and will give you a subconscience flinch if you don't get right back in the saddle a KB will do! What model gun were you shooting? What caliber were you shooting and what loading from Underwood were you shooting if you don't mind telling us? I carry a lot of Buffalo Bore ammo and also therefor train with it in my Woods Gun at least a cylinder's worth every range trip. I was thinking of buying some Underwood...
Link Posted: 9/21/2017 2:19:56 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:
Has there ever been a single documented case of a "Buffaloed" gun?  (KB)
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I have ran across several stories on internet forums of Buffalo Bore ammunition Ka-Booming peoples guns. Not going to list links to other forums here. But a Google search should send you in the right direction if you want to read up on it. To make matters worse Tim's customer service during these events is usually described as poor.

I have had only one experience with Buffalo Bore ammuntion and it wasn't a good experience. I purchased some of their 220 grain Hardcast Flat nose 10mm ammunition to try in my Kimber TLE 10mm 1911. i was shooting it across the chrono to see if the velocity numbers were true. To their credit, the advertised velocity of 1200 fps was very close. I shot 4 rounds and averaged 1197 fps. However, I stopped after those 4 shots and examined the fired cases to find that all 4 shots popped the primers out and left black soot and debris on my breechface of the gun.  That was the first and last time I have ever used Buffalo Bore ammo. Its too hot! Luckily, the Kimber 10mm has some of the very best case support of all 10mm 1911's. Had it been a Colt Delta, it would have probably blown up the gun.
Link Posted: 9/21/2017 2:26:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 9/21/2017 3:33:15 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:


That's one of the older loads. A lot of those loads have been scrubbed from loading manuals.

Sometime in the early 90s 357 Magnum went from 40000 cup to 35000 cup.
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This is incorrect.  Sometime in the mid 90's SAAMI converted from using the copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure in CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) to transducer measurements that measured in true PSI.   The pressure for 357 Magnum had been 45,000 CUP when they changed measurement systems the pressure became 35,000 psi.  Both measurements are still listed in current SAAMI publications.  They are roughly the same pressure.

Modern Piezoelectric transducer measurements are far more accurate, repeatable, and have real world units not an abstraction.  Crusher measurements are time dependent.  Slower burning powders that produce a longer but lower peak pressure can measure higher CUP than a fast burning powder that has a higher but shorter duration peak pressure.  There is also no way to convert accurately from CUP to PSI.  Transducer measurements give real world pressures and can give you the full pressure vs time curves.  Crusher measurements are a bad integration of the pressure vs time curve and do not accurately represent peak pressure in some cases especially for fast powders.

That said very few of the big Ammunition manufacturers load their 357 Magnum ammunition close to SAAMI MAP simply due to the number of aging and poorly maintained 357 Magnums floating around out there.  Covering their arses.
Link Posted: 9/22/2017 7:51:46 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
I'm glad you're OK. I bet you checked your boxers after you calmed down didn't you? It's no fun and will give you a subconscience flinch if you don't get right back in the saddle a KB will do! What model gun were you shooting? What caliber were you shooting and what loading from Underwood were you shooting if you don't mind telling us? I carry a lot of Buffalo Bore ammo and also therefor train with it in my Woods Gun at least a cylinder's worth every range trip. I was thinking of buying some Underwood...
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I had an epic kaboom using Underwood ammo a month ago.  The barrel is still being tested to see if there are any clues as to what went wrong.  Thank god I only got a small blister and scratch on my trigger finger.
I'm glad you're OK. I bet you checked your boxers after you calmed down didn't you? It's no fun and will give you a subconscience flinch if you don't get right back in the saddle a KB will do! What model gun were you shooting? What caliber were you shooting and what loading from Underwood were you shooting if you don't mind telling us? I carry a lot of Buffalo Bore ammo and also therefor train with it in my Woods Gun at least a cylinder's worth every range trip. I was thinking of buying some Underwood...
It was an FNX-Tactical converted to.40-Super.  $1900, total loss.  Destroyed the RMR too.
Link Posted: 9/23/2017 12:40:29 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:
This is incorrect.  Sometime in the mid 90's SAAMI converted from using the copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure in CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) to transducer measurements that measured in true PSI.   The pressure for 357 Magnum had been 45,000 CUP when they changed measurement systems the pressure became 35,000 psi.  Both measurements are still listed in current SAAMI publications.  They are roughly the same pressure.

Modern Piezoelectric transducer measurements are far more accurate, repeatable, and have real world units not an abstraction.  Crusher measurements are time dependent.  Slower burning powders that produce a longer but lower peak pressure can measure higher CUP than a fast burning powder that has a higher but shorter duration peak pressure.  There is also no way to convert accurately from CUP to PSI.  Transducer measurements give real world pressures and can give you the full pressure vs time curves.  Crusher measurements are a bad integration of the pressure vs time curve and do not accurately represent peak pressure in some cases especially for fast powders.

That said very few of the big Ammunition manufacturers load their 357 Magnum ammunition close to SAAMI MAP simply due to the number of aging and poorly maintained 357 Magnums floating around out there.  Covering their arses.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


That's one of the older loads. A lot of those loads have been scrubbed from loading manuals.

Sometime in the early 90s 357 Magnum went from 40000 cup to 35000 cup.
This is incorrect.  Sometime in the mid 90's SAAMI converted from using the copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure in CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) to transducer measurements that measured in true PSI.   The pressure for 357 Magnum had been 45,000 CUP when they changed measurement systems the pressure became 35,000 psi.  Both measurements are still listed in current SAAMI publications.  They are roughly the same pressure.

Modern Piezoelectric transducer measurements are far more accurate, repeatable, and have real world units not an abstraction.  Crusher measurements are time dependent.  Slower burning powders that produce a longer but lower peak pressure can measure higher CUP than a fast burning powder that has a higher but shorter duration peak pressure.  There is also no way to convert accurately from CUP to PSI.  Transducer measurements give real world pressures and can give you the full pressure vs time curves.  Crusher measurements are a bad integration of the pressure vs time curve and do not accurately represent peak pressure in some cases especially for fast powders.

That said very few of the big Ammunition manufacturers load their 357 Magnum ammunition close to SAAMI MAP simply due to the number of aging and poorly maintained 357 Magnums floating around out there.  Covering their arses.
The mass of the old crusher measurement hardware put a limit on how small (narrow) a peak could be and show on the crusher.

The piezo system has essentially zero mass and is limited only by the bandwidth of the amplifier chain  and the speed of the A/D converter used to sample the signal.

I designed those amplifier chains as a consultant to more than one maker of the equipment.

For the most part they sort of freaked out over the bandwidth requirements required do display the rising edge correctly while maintaining good accuracy performance.

High speed DC coupled amplifier chains are a special kind of nightmare.
Link Posted: 9/23/2017 5:03:49 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:
The mass of the old crusher measurement hardware put a limit on how small (narrow) a peak could be and show on the crusher.

The piezo system has essentially zero mass and is limited only by the bandwidth of the amplifier chain  and the speed of the A/D converter used to sample the signal.

I designed those amplifier chains as a consultant to more than one maker of the equipment.

For the most part they sort of freaked out over the bandwidth requirements required do display the rising edge correctly while maintaining good accuracy performance.

High speed DC coupled amplifier chains are a special kind of nightmare.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


That's one of the older loads. A lot of those loads have been scrubbed from loading manuals.

Sometime in the early 90s 357 Magnum went from 40000 cup to 35000 cup.
This is incorrect.  Sometime in the mid 90's SAAMI converted from using the copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure in CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) to transducer measurements that measured in true PSI.   The pressure for 357 Magnum had been 45,000 CUP when they changed measurement systems the pressure became 35,000 psi.  Both measurements are still listed in current SAAMI publications.  They are roughly the same pressure.

Modern Piezoelectric transducer measurements are far more accurate, repeatable, and have real world units not an abstraction.  Crusher measurements are time dependent.  Slower burning powders that produce a longer but lower peak pressure can measure higher CUP than a fast burning powder that has a higher but shorter duration peak pressure.  There is also no way to convert accurately from CUP to PSI.  Transducer measurements give real world pressures and can give you the full pressure vs time curves.  Crusher measurements are a bad integration of the pressure vs time curve and do not accurately represent peak pressure in some cases especially for fast powders.

That said very few of the big Ammunition manufacturers load their 357 Magnum ammunition close to SAAMI MAP simply due to the number of aging and poorly maintained 357 Magnums floating around out there.  Covering their arses.
The mass of the old crusher measurement hardware put a limit on how small (narrow) a peak could be and show on the crusher.

The piezo system has essentially zero mass and is limited only by the bandwidth of the amplifier chain  and the speed of the A/D converter used to sample the signal.

I designed those amplifier chains as a consultant to more than one maker of the equipment.

For the most part they sort of freaked out over the bandwidth requirements required do display the rising edge correctly while maintaining good accuracy performance.

High speed DC coupled amplifier chains are a special kind of nightmare.
Yeap, I don't build the hardware but I use high speed DAQ for analysis fairly regularly at work.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 2:08:55 PM EDT
[#50]
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Yeap, I don't build the hardware but I use high speed DAQ for analysis fairly regularly at work.
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At one point Tektronix had the fastest A/D Converter available.

They would not sell that individual part to anyone and TriQuint (the manufacturer) was captive to them by then.

We purchased whole oscilloscopes from them and removed the converter from them for use in EW equipment.

Mostly radar warning receivers.

I doubt anyone from Tektronix knew why E-Systems was purchasing so many of their newest fastest o'scope.

We had just about every division of E-Systems buy some for us.
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