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Posted: 7/21/2005 1:49:40 PM EDT
Just picked up a 10mm gun the other day.. Thats the most fun Ive had with a pistol in a long time.. Especially the full power loads..

Just wondering
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:52:43 PM EDT
Cost of ammo here and a G20 wouldnt make a good CCw peice for me
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:00:33 PM EDT
The infamous FBI Miami shootout didn't do the 10mm any favors, IMO. Of course, the load was weakened down so some agents could control it.

Bad PR coupled with a bit of ammo sticker shock = adios to a potentially good caliber.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:11:32 PM EDT
-To big to fit into 9mm sized guns
-Cost of ammo
-FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) decided to go with the low power load
-S&W & Winchester desinged the 40 that duplicated the FBI 10mm load, and that could fit into 9mm handguns
-There was more corporate "push" for 40 S&W guns than there were for 10mm's. Besides the Colt Delta pistols, the GLOCK 20, and the S&W 1006, there werent' any other big companies that were pushing 10mm pistols down our throats. While everybody and their cousin introduced a 40 pistol.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:28:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
The infamous FBI Miami shootout didn't do the 10mm any favors, IMO. Of course, the load was weakened down so some agents could control it.

Bad PR coupled with a bit of ammo sticker shock = adios to a potentially good caliber.




Hmmm. I thought that the Miami Shootout was one of the reasons the FBI upgraded to 10mm in the first place../

[googles]

Ah, here it is:


Weapons involved in the gunfight:

Suspects:

Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun (1 round #6 shot fired).
Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine (at least 42 rounds fired),

S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired),

Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired).

FBI:
McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired),
.357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Grogan: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (9 rounds fired).

Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired).

Risner: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (13-14 rounds fired?),
S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver (1 round .38 Special +P fired).

Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 4 inch barrel (12 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Hanlon: S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Manauzzi: Apparently lost possession of his handgun during the vehicle collision and was unable to locate and recover it during the gunfight (0 rounds fired).



As I recall, they then adopted 10mm, but found many of their agents couldn't handle full house loads. (Many FBI agents were/are recruited from accounting and law school classes, and most of the female agents had major complaints about the full power 10MM loads).

That's when we started seeing the "FBI Load" in 10mm, which was major reduced but still better than 9mm.

Smith & Wesson saw an opportunity, duplicated that load in a shorter case, and the .40S&W was born.

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:36:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
That's when we started seeing the "FBI Load" in 10mm, which was major reduced but still better than 9mm.

Smith & Wesson saw an opportunity, duplicated that load in a shorter case, and the .40S&W was born.


+1
FBI underloaded the 10mm, S&W realized they could fit the load into a smaller case, bye-bye 10mm hello .40 Short and Weak.

I couldn't really say that was a bad thing tho. If the 40 S&W solves the original problem, and does it in a smaller package, then I'd say it was a good thing.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:37:07 PM EDT

I would argue that the 10mm DID catch on. It continues to sell, and there are lots of manufacturers
making guns in that caliber.

Think about Glocks marketing. If there was no market for 10mm, they would be the
first to drop it. They are not in the "niche" end of the market. But, they continue to sell
10mm products. Lots of the 1911 makers are ADDING 10mm products to their lines.

No, it will never be bigger than 9mm/.45ACP/.38-.357Mag, nothing will ever beat out those
"Big 3". It certainly has a bigger market share than .357Sig and some of the newer things.

.40S&W did so well because it had a major marketing powerhouse behind it, and even
.40 is just the 10mm "FBI load" in a shorter case.

So considering all the other handgun calibers that have come and gone, I'd say 10mm
is in there with the best of them, but nothing wil ever beat out the big 3 for pure
numbers sold.



Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:47:27 PM EDT
10mm fun and I'm a picture whore.




I need to do a group picture
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:48:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
10mm fun and I'm a picture whore.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0703.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0066.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0622.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0579.jpg
I need to do a group picture



Nice! I have Dan Wesson Razorback #101. GREAT pistol. How do you like your PointMan?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:52:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By twonami:
10mm fun and I'm a picture whore.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0703.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0066.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0622.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0579.jpg
I need to do a group picture



Nice! I have Dan Wesson Razorback #101. GREAT pistol. How do you like your PointMan?


Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:54:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
10mm fun and I'm a picture whore.



me too, but I'm sure everyone seen my 10s. The 10mm is a reloader dream, its sooo extreme, I can load from hot to nuke loads, I dont down load my 10...

<­BR>




Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:01:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 3:03:47 PM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By BobCole:
The infamous FBI Miami shootout didn't do the 10mm any favors, IMO. Of course, the load was weakened down so some agents could control it.

Bad PR coupled with a bit of ammo sticker shock = adios to a potentially good caliber.




The 10mm wasn't involved in the Miami shootout. The agents involved were carrying S&W 19 combat special .357 mags loaded w/.38Spl LSWCHP, and S&W 459 9mms loaded w/ 115 grain Silvertips. The 10mm was adopted to improve the effectiveness of agents sidearms, but was downloaded so that the agency's pencil pushers could handle the recoil.

The 10mm, when loaded as intended, is an extremely effective handgun round, flat shooting to carbine distances, and an excellent performer against auto body and windshields. Just as they had netuered agents .357s by mandating .38s be carried unless "special circumstances" warranted otherwise, they pussified the 10mm with the downloaded round.

Later when it was realized that the downloaded 10mm could be stuffed into a smaller case, and used in 9mm sized weapons, the .40 S&W was born. Although the .40cal made the downloaded 10mm obsolete, the full power 10mm is in a completely different category of performance. Comparing the full power 10mm to the .40 S&W is like comparing .38 spl target loads to full power .357 mag.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:03:15 PM EDT
I don't get it.... the question was "why didn't take off?"

Besides some incorrect drivel about the infamous Miami assbeating, the common drum beat is "cost of ammo". The cost of 10mm ammo TODAY is roughly what .45 ACP is TODAY. Cost then? pfffff unless you got actual retail numbers - moot point. Why? because if Uncle Sugar wanted it - cost wasn't gonna stop him. Secondly, regardless of what it was then for a civi - had it taken off - cost would most likely be on par with 40 S&W or .45 ACP - and guess what - it ain't that far off now!

Why did it take a shit in the market place?

This was the pre plastic era - Glock hadn't been invented. As such they were fist built on 1911' s and steel framed S&Ws - and guess what? They broke the guns down too quickly.

It is a loud stiff recoiling gun that requires a minimum skill level to be effective with it. Such a skill level is often not found in paper pushing LEOs. Kinda hard to get everyone to qualify if they are intimidated by what they carry.

Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.

Thus, the better question is - why would a 10mm survive in light of those factors?

For the record, I am a 10mm owner and fan.

Good luck
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:04:12 PM EDT
10mm is niche-ey.

Like people have said, the hot rounds, and the reloads are very good. Factory ammo prices suck.

For everyday non-bulky pistols and enough stopping power, the .40 S&W is where it's at right now.

Beyond that, the venerable .45 is there, but I'm not that big a fan of the round. But it's growing on me.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:07:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By BobCole:
The infamous FBI Miami shootout didn't do the 10mm any favors, IMO. Of course, the load was weakened down so some agents could control it.

Bad PR coupled with a bit of ammo sticker shock = adios to a potentially good caliber.




The 10mm wasn't involved in the Miami shootout. The agents involved were carrying S&W 19 combat special .357 mags loaded w/.38Spl LSWCHP, and S&W 459 9mms loaded w/ 115 grain Silvertips. The 10mm was adopted to improve the effectiveness of agents sidearms, but was downloaded so that the agency's pencil pushers could handle the recoil.

The 10mm, when loaded as intended, is an extremely effective handgun round, flat shooting to carbine distances, and an excellent performer against auto body and windshields. Just as they had netuered agents .357s by mandating .38s be carried unless "special circumstances" warranted otherwise, they pussified the 10mm with the downloaded round.

Later when it was realized that the downloaded 10mm could be stuffed into a smaller case, and used in 9mm sized weapons, the .40 S&W was born. Although the .40cal made the downloaded 10mm obsolete, the full power 10mm is in a completely different category of performance. Comparing the full power 10mm to the .40 S&W is like comparing .38 spl target loads to full power .357 mag.



Yup. Fully house 10mm (like the stuff Double Tap sells) comes within a couple hundred FPS of FULL HOUSE .41 Magnum performance. That's nothing to laugh at. But in a lightweight Glock, it can be a bit punishing -- although I'm not terribly bothered, I know a lot of folks who won't shoot more than half a box full at a sitting.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:10:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
I don't get it.... the question was "why didn't take off?"

Besides some incorrect drivel about the infamous Miami assbeating, the common drum beat is "cost of ammo". The cost of 10mm ammo TODAY is roughly what .45 ACP is TODAY. Cost then? pfffff unless you got actual retail numbers - moot point. Why? because if Uncle Sugar wanted it - cost wasn't gonna stop him. Secondly, regardless of what it was then for a civi - had it taken off - cost would most likely be on par with 40 S&W or .45 ACP - and guess what - it ain't that far off now!

Why did it take a shit in the market place?

This was the pre plastic era - Glock hadn't been invented. As such they were fist built on 1911' s and steel framed S&Ws - and guess what? They broke the guns down too quickly.

It is a loud stiff recoiling gun that requires a minimum skill level to be effective with it. Such a skill level is often not found in paper pushing LEOs. Kinda hard to get everyone to qualify if they are intimidated by what they carry.

Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.

Thus, the better question is - why would a 10mm survive in light of those factors?

For the record, I am a 10mm owner and fan.

Good luck



I'd say you're right in a lot of respects, but really it comes down to a "design" question. Existing 9mm designs can often be minimally bulked up and made into .40s, whereas you rightly point out that even .45 designs are not always easy to bring up to 10mm standards.

Its not an easy round to shoot effectively, but it's a hell of a round nonetheless.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:13:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
10mm fun and I'm a picture whore.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0703.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0066.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0622.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/100_0579.jpg
I need to do a group picture



Two, now I know why I like you so much.

I'm up to 6 10's again and also need to do a group pic.

Danny
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:23:50 PM EDT
Besides wanting a 1911 the Glock G20 is what hooked me on 10mm. I remember getting a Glock catalog in 87 or 88 and drooling over the G20 and 10mm round
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:26:43 PM EDT
True 10mm rounds were basically .41 magnums. It would beat guns to death and most people could not handle the recoil.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 3:44:04 PM EDT
Just to show how sick I am...

Thrown together pic.



2- G20's
1- G29
1-EAA Witness
1- S&W 1006
1- Colt Delta Gold Cup-Pre-Enhanced version

Danny
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:05:42 PM EDT
in Semi autos I will take .45 acp over 10mm, 10mm over 40 short and weak, and 40 short and weak over 9mm.....


And that is not counting bottle neck cartridges....



Of course I prefer revolvers and like .454 casull and .45 colt in them
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:10:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2005 4:11:34 PM EDT by twonami]

Originally Posted By Minuteman419:
Just to show how sick I am...

Thrown together pic.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40008

2- G20's
1- G29
1-EAA Witness
1- S&W 1006
1- Colt Delta Gold Cup-Pre-Enhanced version

Danny


cool! How does the G29 handle with the full power loads?
I held it in my hands but not enough of a handle for the thump. Is the recoil like holding a .357 snubbie?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:13:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Minuteman419:
Just to show how sick I am...

Thrown together pic.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40008

2- G20's
1- G29
1-EAA Witness
1- S&W 1006
1- Colt Delta Gold Cup-Pre-Enhanced version

Danny



I like the look of the S&W in your collection.

Any sense of how full of a diet of "full house" (i.e., NOrma load / Double Tap style) ammo that bad-boy can handle consistently? Any reports of frame breakage, etc?

Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:18:58 PM EDT
tag.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:27:25 PM EDT
kind of a side track here, but how did the .38spcl+P's work out? I've seen all the reports of failures from the 9mm but what about the 38's?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:37:11 PM EDT
Here is my new acquisition..
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:41:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.



Would you care to quantify "very small"?
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 5:19:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.



Would you care to quantify "very small"?


I'm assuming that he is only taking into consideration carry ammo.
From a practical standpoint, all of the quality defensive type ammo will perform to the minimum FBI standards.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 11:40:00 PM EDT
The FBI made a major mistake when the originally adopted the 10mm Auto. I was on a tour of the FBI HQ in Wash DC few years ago. Their agents are mostly computer people and accountants because their main purpose is root out corporate fraud and embezzlements a la Enron, ie "white color" crimes. The shoot out in Miami was a anomoly. Most of the time the average policeman in a typical city would be more likely to be in a shoot out. And many of those people are not firearms enthusiaists so the 10mm Auto was just too much for a non-shooting person.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 2:05:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 2:07:26 AM EDT by Combat_Diver]
When the first 10mms first came out, ammo was expensive (Norma), guns high priced (D&D Bren Ten) and mags untenable. First nail in coffin.

Then came the Smiths 1000 series, Delta Elites, and more full power ammo. Guns are still large frames (remember the M58 Smiths and the .41 mag). Nail number two. For law enforcement guns need to be compact and not recoil heavy.

Third nail was the adoption of the .40 Smith and Wesson. Yes, the 10 does full the niche (same as my favorite .41 mag) only few deicated shooters will use and buy. Most of the masses will stick with the 9mm/40 S&W/45 ACP.

That's my two cents on what happen to the 10 in the market place.

CD
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 2:47:15 AM EDT
The 10mm is a superb auto pistol round but is the equivalent of the .41 magnum in revolvers - a great idea that will never catch on with the masses. It has too much recoil in full power loads for your basic cop on the street who only shoots to qualify once a year and the small minority who appreciate it will not buy enough units to entice manufacturers to spend R&D dollars on it. It will remain a niche cartidge just like my beloved .41 mag.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 3:05:16 AM EDT
Beautiful gun pics here. I think all the reasons have been given for the small but hardcore following that the 10mm has. I hope to be a 10mm owner myself very soon.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 9:51:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:

That's when we started seeing the "FBI Load" in 10mm, which was major reduced but still better than 9mm.





That's probably what I was thinking about, thanks for the correction.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 11:13:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.



Would you care to quantify "very small"?


I'm assuming that he is only taking into consideration carry ammo.
From a practical standpoint, all of the quality defensive type ammo will perform to the minimum FBI standards.



Correct - only speaking of leading edge bonded hollow points such as a Gold Dot.

As for actual data - because in the end any of us with half a brain that carry on a daily basis or that own for a purpose need to make informed decisions based on quality data - please forgive me but I do not have a link. However, I believe the most recent and compelling study was a recently released FBI study that was posted on this site - and I want to say I came across it in the General section.

I remember the first time I saw / heard about a 10mm - mid to late '80s ...... on the cover of a handgun rag - the Fed's new wonder cartridge..... I was hooked on the idea ever since. I have a custom 10mm on my hip as I type this in part due to that article.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 11:28:18 AM EDT
If you like 10mm, you will absolutely love 9x23Winchester.
There's something about 18 rounds of .357Magnum in a 1911 that does it for me.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 12:37:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 12:45:31 PM EDT by Minuteman419]

Originally Posted By twonami:
cool! How does the G29 handle with the full power loads?
I held it in my hands but not enough of a handle for the thump. Is the recoil like holding a .357 snubbie?



To me, it's a little more snappy than the G20. Prolly due to slightly less weight.

I can tell a difference, not a significant difference though.

I'm so used to the full power 10mm loads that everything less feels funny.


Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:

I like the look of the S&W in your collection.

Any sense of how full of a diet of "full house" (i.e., NOrma load / Double Tap style) ammo that bad-boy can handle consistently? Any reports of frame breakage, etc?




I only use the Factory Hornady 180 and Win.175 loads, along with my reloads in these. I never have used Norma or Double Tap (but want too) yet.

The 1006 was used, I got it from my cousin and I sold it to him when new (was ffl for awhile) and all he ever shot was full power loads in it, many of them.

I have never seen or heard of any problems with them, but I don't get out much.

It's still in pretty decent shape, shoots great.

All of mine really like a good 180 grain HP behind good old Blue Dot.

Danny

Link Posted: 7/22/2005 2:53:17 PM EDT
One thing you need to look at when comparing power is barrel length. To a great extent, these loads, as with .357 magnum, depend on velocity for their Kinetic Energy. Velocity is affected by barrel length. Without going through an exhaustive list, just look at the Winchester ballistics tables. You will see that the 10mm load on, say, Silvertip, is a higher power than the .40 Silvertip. But, the results are from a 5" barrel on the 10mm, and a 4" barrel on the .40. Though I don't have a specific loss figure for that 1" barrel difference, I think a 4" 10mm would be substantially less than a 5" simply because of the loss in velocity, which is squared in the Kinetic Energy formula. I suspect that a 4" 10mm might be more powerful than a /40 S&W, but only marginally so, not the 50% greater as would be implied y a superficial reading of the numbers.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 3:15:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2005 3:17:26 AM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]
I fail to follow your logic. How much longer is the barrel on, say a Glock 20 as opposed to the barrel on a Glock 22? The velocity emparted by a DT 10mm round is somewhere over 700 FT/LBS of energy. That is going to be a great deal more than anything you can accomplish with the 40 S&W.

Edit: The difference between the two is eleven hundredths of an inch. You imply that the comparisons made between the two rounds is not an apples to apples comparison, but I fail to see how it can get much closer than that.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 3:20:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2005 3:25:38 AM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Beautiful gun pics here. I think all the reasons have been given for the small but hardcore following that the 10mm has. I hope to be a 10mm owner myself very soon.



+1

already got one

P.S: to anyone trying to compare a .40sw to a 10mm--a 10mm full powered load (even w/ a 1-2in bbl length difference) vs. a .40sw is no contest
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 8:25:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2005 8:25:50 PM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By BB:
If you like 10mm, you will absolutely love 9x23Winchester.
There's something about 18 rounds of .357Magnum in a 1911 that does it for me.




How 'bout the .460 Rowland?

Now THAT'LL put some hair on your ass!
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:19:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
I fail to follow your logic. How much longer is the barrel on, say a Glock 20 as opposed to the barrel on a Glock 22? The velocity emparted by a DT 10mm round is somewhere over 700 FT/LBS of energy. That is going to be a great deal more than anything you can accomplish with the 40 S&W.

Edit: The difference between the two is eleven hundredths of an inch. You imply that the comparisons made between the two rounds is not an apples to apples comparison, but I fail to see how it can get much closer than that.



If you read my full post, which was not overly long, you would have noted two points:

a) The barrel lengths referenced were a full inch apart (as it turns out, I was wrong, the lengths used in my example were 1.5" apart); and

b) I made no claim hat 10mm and .40 were comparable, my comment was that in a true comparison the difference was likely incremental rather than on the order of 50% greater.

My logic was that, using a standard, that is, consistent ammo, which is critical - one can't say the best, super-hot handload of one should be compared to a target load of the other - and barrel length used for that figure, some conclusions may be drawn which indicate the chart energy figures cannot be taken at face value in isolation. There could be many comparisons, depending on the ammo. chosen. I simply selected the Winchester Silvertip load as on the Winchester.com website.

The figures for basic muzzle energy for that particular load were 500 ft.lbs for the .40, using a 4" barrel; and 660 ft. lbs. using a 5.5" barrel for the 10mm. Again, YMMV, depending on the loads selected. I feel the comparisons would be proportional. I simply selected somewhat standard "off the shelf" loads I would buy in the store.

The ratio of length vs. velocity is not simply linear, either. One cannot say that because one barrel is x% shorter that the velocity would be exactly this, etc. We are not going into a detailed ballistics analysis. But, I think that anyone can see that the 10mm in a 4" barrel (an "apples to appples" comparison, considering a pistol one might carry)is not going to be what one would think from the charts (660 ft. lbs vs. 500 ft. lbs for the 40) because the charts themselves are not using the same barrel length. You need powder burn to get the velocity, and velocity is squared and therefore more influential power factor in the Kinetic Energy equation. You get powder burn in a longer barrel. Yes, the 10 will always be more powerful unless someone does something ridiculous like compare a 10mm in a 2" barrel to a 40 in 4".

I do not claim parity between .40 and 10mm, but merely point out that the charts aren't what they might seem.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 12:49:57 PM EDT
anyone have the specs on the original load?

wasn't it norma 200gr at like 1400 fps?

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 12:57:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
anyone have the specs on the original load?

wasn't it norma 200gr at like 1400 fps?




Top of page Here shows what looks like 1200 fps with the 200, vs 1300 fps with the 170 grain.

Danny
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:24:26 PM EDT
I found a box and WOW!!!!! Knumb hand after 20rds...

10mm is FUN!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:29:24 PM EDT
135gr Nosler JHP, 14.5gr IMR 800-X, Rem 2-1/2 Primer = 1670fps, 836ft/lbs

That's just a published load, it's not the limit...
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 7:33:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 1:20:54 PM EDT by AK_Mike]

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
Bullet tech advanced - we are at the point today (like it or don't) that the margin of effectiveness between a 9mm / 40 S&W / .45 ACP and a 10mm is very small.



Would you care to quantify "very small"?



It IS very small and here's why. Temporary stretch cavities are practically inconsequential, it's the permanent crush cavities that count. The difference between those calibers is very, very small so the crush cavity difference among them is small. Penetration becomes the dominant difference assuming each is going fast enough to expand a hollowpoint. A .40S&W will leave the same permanent crush cavity as the 10mm and would be very difficult to tell the difference if you opened the body up and looked, only depth of penetration would differ if at all. The organs are very elastic (except for the liver) so big temporary cavities, which tend to be no more than 10x the bullet diameter, don't do much damage at all.

ETA: I forget when I mention this diatribe that I am referring to handgun bullets ONLY, rifle rounds are another matter.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:28:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/31/2005 8:29:40 PM EDT by CFII]
I love my 10mm. I have, and carry ALOT, a fullsize Tagfolio Witness. Its big, heavy, VERY comfy, and accurate as hell. 16 rounds of insanly fast 135gr Double tap, or 230gr Double Tap equilizer (duplex load, 135gr JHP and 95gr ball) makes me a happy man. It penetrates like mad, and can be loaded hot or cold. Its flexibility is a major attraction.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:16:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
The organs are very elastic (except for the liver) so big temporary cavities, which tend to be no more than 10x the bullet diameter, don't do much damage at all.



To add to what Mike is saying - temporary cavities - do not have much effect with an HG b/c of the low velocities. A rifle on the other hand creates what is called 'hydrostatic wounding' wherein as the projectile passes through the tissue (since it is traveling at such high speed) it is litterally like a boat going through water - leaving a wake in its path. In this case the wake is a violent wave that creates additional wounding. In Plaster's book, he discusses hydrostatic wounding and cites an Israeli sniper that made a high COM shot - when they opened up the chest, the single round had basically liquified the organs.

The difference - 1,000 fps vs 2800 fps

Good luck
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:09:46 PM EDT
I vaguely recall reading a report in which a conclusion was that 2000 fps. was a threshold for hydrostatic wounding.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:35:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Minuteman419:
Just to show how sick I am...hrown
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40008

2- G20's
1- G29
1-EAA Witness
1- S&W 1006
1- Colt Delta Gold Cup-Pre-Enhanced version

Danny hr


Colt Delta Gold Cup = hock.gif Very, Very Nice Weapon Danny. I had one and let it go.he
One question does come to mind. We're talking a pretty high pressure load that has the reputation for giving the weapon a beating and a shorter than normal life span. Of all the 10's, legends and modern, which weapon is built like a rock to withstand the punishment for life? I've always heard Dan Wesson's pistols were solid.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:17:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 10:18:38 AM EDT by pippin]
Racezilla:
"One question does come to mind. We're talking a pretty high pressure load that has the reputation for giving the weapon a beating and a shorter than normal life span. Of all the 10's, legends and modern, which weapon is built like a rock to withstand the punishment for life? I've always heard Dan Wesson's pistols were solid. "

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but I would say the SW610 (Smith & Wesson's N frame revolver). I have the version with a 6.5 inch barrel and its built like a brick. You could shoot hot loads all day without wearing it out.

On the other hand I have seen at least one Delta Elite that was so loose that it sounded like a rattle if you shook it. Still shoots pretty good though.
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