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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/21/2005 11:27:23 AM EDT

Owners explain this to me. If it's such a good design why isn't HK making them anymore?
Not trying to raise any hackles just curious
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 11:32:37 AM EDT
Not that big of seller, costs the big money to buy and get stuff for.

I like mine
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 12:46:51 PM EDT
I always thought it was all about demand and manufacturing. Though you would think all the manufacturing would have paid for itself and keeping the P7 in production would be no big deal.

I always felt a H&K Handgun with all the great features of the P7 (Flutted Chamber, Grip Cock) and the polymer frame, 45 cal. and 1911 geometry of the USP would be a winner.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 1:05:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 2:01:34 PM EDT
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Pure & simple. Not many of us will pay $800-1000 for a single stack 9mm.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 4:12:33 PM EDT
tag.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 11:48:03 PM EDT
From what I understand, the frame & slide of the P7 is a steel forging, and has to be machined etc, all this takes time and effort, ie cost money. Molding the frame of USP is easy, comes out of the mold almost ready to go.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 1:02:52 AM EDT
Doesn't the P7 also have a gas system? God knows how much that costs in comparison to recoil-op.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 1:05:40 AM EDT
Its an incredible gun. Id own one in a heartbeat if it wasnt so different from everything else I use.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 4:39:02 AM EDT
I do miss the one I had for 15 years. Most accurate 9mm I ever owned. Reason for discounting is market, demand and cost. Not many people want a heavy all steel, single stack 9mm.

CD
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 5:35:27 AM EDT
They are great guns period. I thought I would have a tough time getting used to mine so they would be "instinctive" to use but it really is no big deal. The squeeze cocking mechanism is easy to learn and frankly I felt very comfortable with the safety of it when I carried mine. There is a promotional video from HK that showed the P7 would cycle with the extractor removed! The weapon is expensive to produce as there are 1.5 billion parts in it- remove the grips and watch the mechanism at work. Granted, most of those are stamped parts but compare the cost of that to, say, a Glock.

Other oddities are the chamber is fluted, like it is on many other HK weapons. The gas system works the opposite that it does on most other firearms. Gas pressure is used to retard the movement of the slide while the bullet is still in the barrel. Then it operates as a blowback from then on.

The squeeze cocker also functions as the slide release. The mag release on the P7M8 is ambidextrous, and frankly if you are a lefty it doesn't get much better than the P7 when it comes to the controls. Mag changes are very fast- you can use your trigger finger to hit the mag release, and the mag merrily shoots right out. Slam in a fresh mag, one squeeze of the cocking mechanism and you are good to go.

There are a few flies on the P7. Cost is an obvious downside. The guns get really hot if you shoot them rapidly. Heat starts to sink down the trigger guard, and then it slowly roasts your middle finger. I used to put tape on my middle finger if I was planning a long range session. Another fly is the balance of the gun in the holster was only so-so. A big amount of the mass of the pistol is in the butt section. The P7M13s are really "floppy" in a belt holster. I have shot the .40cal version and it was a wildebeast, plain and simple. Bloated!

One cool feature is you can easily remove the striker mechanism without tools for cleaning. Cleaning the gas system is for the birds, though. The weapon includes a brush and a "port scraper" for this purpose. Carbon seems to bleed from the pistol and my holsters were generally blackened over time.

The mags are very well made. I wish I could say that about every weapon.

Accuracy was good but not earth shatteringly good. The trigger pull is good, but not outstanding. A tuned 1911 provides the benchmark for quality trigger pulls. That said, the weapon points instinctively.

When it comes to carrying the P7M8 I really appreciated the thin slide and frame of it. It packs well IWB. The specifications from HK hint the pistol is wider than it really is. They are measuring the width of the mag release tabs. That doesn't tell you how slim the slide and frame are.

Cheese

Link Posted: 7/22/2005 6:15:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 6:56:55 AM EDT by KravMaga]
I've been thinking about getting one of these as my backup weapon for on duty. In general, 'm not a big fan of safeties on handguns, but always been a little uncomfortable with a firearm on my ankle or vest that isn't somewhat protected (Don't want something to catch on the trigger and shoot myself in the foot or thigh) That being said, I really like the idea of having to put a decent amount of positive pressure on the grip in order to fire.

Ordanance Outsellers www.ordnanceoutsellers.com/page13.htm has a refurbished version for $1000. Haven't seen any NIB, so not sure what the going price is for them.

Anyone have any experience with this company or with refurbished P7M8's in general? If they aren't up to snuff, anyone have a place where you can get them NIB?

Thanks!

Link Posted: 7/22/2005 9:49:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KravMaga:

Anyone have any experience with this company or with refurbished P7M8's in general? If they aren't up to snuff, anyone have a place where you can get them NIB?





Mine was a refurbished unit from (I'm guessing) German police trade-in as it has the plum colored slide & the tooling mark where their ID was machined off. Runs like shit thru a goose & is amazingly accurate with the cheapest ammo I can shoot thru it!

NIB models seem to be asking at around $1300-1400, the anniversary editions going for a bit more. You should be able to find one around $800-950 if you shop a bit, perhaps? I strongly recommend getting one, their accuracy is rivaled only by perhaps the Sig P-210, IMO.

Link Posted: 7/22/2005 9:56:34 AM EDT
Personally I'm excited HK stopped production. Maybe they can be made by someone else now and sold for a reasonable price.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 10:38:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/images/media/productimages/p7m8.jpg
Owners explain this to me. If it's such a good design why isn't HK making them anymore?
Not trying to raise any hackles just curious



Twonami-

You can shoot my P7M8 at the ARFCOM MN shoot next month. The P7 is a great handgun for all the reasons other people have mentioned.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 10:49:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 10:55:02 AM EDT by BB]

Originally Posted By KravMaga:
I've been thinking about getting one of these as my backup weapon for on duty. In general, 'm not a big fan of safeties on handguns, but always been a little uncomfortable with a firearm on my ankle or vest that isn't somewhat protected (Don't want something to catch on the trigger and shoot myself in the foot or thigh) That being said, I really like the idea of having to put a decent amount of positive pressure on the grip in order to fire.

Ordanance Outsellers www.ordnanceoutsellers.com/page13.htm has a refurbished version for $1000. Haven't seen any NIB, so not sure what the going price is for them.

Anyone have any experience with this company or with refurbished P7M8's in general? If they aren't up to snuff, anyone have a place where you can get them NIB?

Thanks!





Yeah, those are NOT P7M8s; those are PSPs and $1000 for a refurb PSP is highway robbery. A NIB P7M8 is going to run you a lot of money; like $1300 (For a heavy 8 shot single stack 9mm that gets hotter than hell after 2-3 mags run through at a reasonable rate of fire).
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 11:53:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 11:55:50 AM EDT by Big-Bore]
There are quite a few refurb P7-M8s as well as the standard P7 refurbs out there. $900 for refurb P7-M8 is a bit more reasonable than the $1000 that shop is asking. That is a bit high. You can get used, and very slightly used at that, P7-M8s for that price. For the standard P7 $1K is way high. $700 to $800 is more reasonable although I have noticed that since the P7 series was dropped from all production people are "wanting" more for the P7s. That really makes no since to me because the P7s have been done for a very long time.

Pay attention to what you are getting. Some places, such as SOG, advertised the pistols at first as P7-M8s when they were in fact P7s. As you likely know, the P7 does not use the same mag or grips as the P7-M8, so ask questions. If it is a heel mag release it is not a P7-M8, but the cheaper P7. Some jokers on GunsAmerica are still calling the P7s P7-M8s and asking $1100-$1300 for them. They are plain and simply out to rip someone off. Also, a lot of people call these P7s by the commonly used term PSP, but again, they are not PSPs. The are almost identical to the PSP but there are very minor differences. The slide is not marked PSP for one thing and the heel release is different. $1300 for a real marked PSP is a steal, it is a rip off for a P7. But do not let someone calling a P7 a PSP make you think they are crooks. Most people do call them PSPs because they are almost identical. The crooks are the ones selling the P7 at PSP prices.

For more info on the different versions of the P7 series check out This link.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 12:28:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to churn out USPs. That plastic frame probably doesn't cost more than about $3 in materials.



+1. Very similar to the M3 greasegun vs. thompson thing.


Rich
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 12:37:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By twonami:
www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/images/media/productimages/p7m8.jpg
Owners explain this to me. If it's such a good design why isn't HK making them anymore?
Not trying to raise any hackles just curious



Twonami-

You can shoot my P7M8 at the ARFCOM MN shoot next month. The P7 is a great handgun for all the reasons other people have mentioned.


cool, I've never seen one
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 5:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:

cool, I've never seen one





You might not want to let go..........................?????????????????
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 6:00:34 PM EDT
It's just the best choice in a concealed carry pistol.
Compact, solid, accurate, ambi, very very safe, and very controllable with Ranger 127gr +p+ ammo.


Link Posted: 7/23/2005 8:19:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2005 8:21:58 PM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By edwin907:
It's just the best choice in a concealed carry pistol.
Compact, solid, accurate, ambi, very very safe, and very controllable with Ranger 127gr +p+ ammo.

www.pbase.com/edwin907/image/46403229/original.jpg




Evidently, it can handle the +p+ rounds so I see no reason why it couldn't digest .45 GAP. Now THAT would be an interesting CCW piece!


ETA: edwin907,

According to Dr. Gary K. Roberts, a 147 gr. JHP offers better penetration and terminal performance in general than the +p/+p+ loads and it does so without the significant increase in muzzle flash, muzzle rise, wear, etc... Just something to think about, IMHO.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:03:18 PM EDT
They are pricey and heavy for an 8+1 9mm. That said, if for some reason I had to sell all of my firearms, the PSP would be the last to go. It is incredibly reliable, accurate, intuitive to use, thin, and conceals easily. I really love my 1911s, but they would go away first.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 3:19:35 PM EDT by chrome1]
I had one for a few years , and I never could get used
to the funky grip cocking . So I sold it for $100 more
then I paid for it .

I saw it back in the shop where I sold , for sale
once again . Only this time it's $300 more then I
paid for it new

Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:23:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
I do miss the one I had for 15 years. Most accurate 9mm I ever owned. Reason for discounting is market, demand and cost. Not many people want a heavy all steel, single stack 9mm.

CD



Me too, Combat_Diver. I had one the first year they were imported. I took a chance with it. Not too many folks had them. I read a couple of magazine articles about it. I wish I had kept it.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 3:27:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By edwin907:
It's just the best choice in a concealed carry pistol.
Compact, solid, accurate, ambi, very very safe, and very controllable with Ranger 127gr +p+ ammo.



Awhile back I did a bunch of research and put together a spreadsheet of compact 9s. The P7M8 had the longest barrel compared to its OAL. If I were going to get a compact 9, I'd probably get a P7M8 or a Kahr. I'd prefer the P7 - a buddy of mine had one for a couple years and I shot it a lot. I wish he'd told me he wanted to sell it before he did so. I would have bought it.

That said, a 1911 is higher on my list.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:03:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 4:04:37 PM EDT by thedr13]

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By twonami:

cool, I've never seen one





You might not want to let go..........................?????????????????




Bob, You are a big fan of BHP,as am I. How Does the accuracy of the P7 compare to a top of the line Belgium BHP?
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 5:10:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 5:15:45 PM EDT by BB]

Originally Posted By thedr13:

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By twonami:

cool, I've never seen one





You might not want to let go..........................?????????????????




Bob, You are a big fan of BHP,as am I. How Does the accuracy of the P7 compare to a top of the line Belgium BHP?



Equal if not better. Lower bore axis, barrel fixed to the grip.
The trigger is not as good as a quality P35, however.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 10:48:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2005 10:51:19 PM EDT by CFII]
I love my P7. Its so instinctive to use. It points perfect, hardly moves at all under recoil, and its thin and easy to carry. I will NEVER sell mine.

Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:03:30 AM EDT
I bought a P7M8 brand new when they first became available. It was an extremely well made pistol, but heavy for a 9mm and not high capacity. I sold it a couple of years later. I picked up another P7M8 used this past year from a friend who needed to raise some cash. I didn't really want it that badly, but I wanted to help him out. I really don't like it as well as a 1911 or BHP, but it's better than a Glock. I'll probably keep it as an interesting artifact, but I doubt I will shoot it much. I just like 1911s much better. Best. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 4:21:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Watch-Six:

It was an extremely well made pistol, but heavy for a 9mm and not high capacity.





Perfect accuracy overrides all other minor defects, sir.


I took mine out last Sunday & let my nephew shoot it. I got to run ONE mag thru it, he shot it the rest of the time!
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:25:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By edwin907:
It's just the best choice in a concealed carry pistol.
Compact, solid, accurate, ambi, very very safe, and very controllable with Ranger 127gr +p+ ammo.

www.pbase.com/edwin907/image/46403229/original.jpg




Evidently, it can handle the +p+ rounds so I see no reason why it couldn't digest .45 GAP. Now THAT would be an interesting CCW piece!



ETA: edwin907,

According to Dr. Gary K. Roberts, a 147 gr. JHP offers better penetration and terminal performance in general than the +p/+p+ loads and it does so without the significant increase in muzzle flash, muzzle rise, wear, etc... Just something to think about, IMHO.




Anyone agree?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 2:10:57 PM EDT
147 grain 9mm does offer excellent performance, but not in the fluted chamber 4.17" P7 barrel that acts like a 3.5" barrel in regard to the muzzle velocity. 147 grain 9mm ammo is already marginally low in velocity, and is a poor choice for the P7.
Also, the pistol wasn't designed for that weight of bullet, and reliability may suffer with bullet weights that high or, as the manual says, below 100 grains.

The P7 was designed for NATO spec 9mm pistol ammo and delivers hammer like reliability with 115 grain +p loads, as well as outstanding accuracy.


Link Posted: 7/31/2005 1:18:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedr13:

Bob, You are a big fan of BHP,as am I. How Does the accuracy of the P7 compare to a top of the line Belgium BHP?




Hands down, the P7 is more accurate, all things being equal. The plus for the HP is capacity & it won't heat up as much as a P7 will on rapid fire.

Link Posted: 7/31/2005 1:25:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By edwin907:
147 grain 9mm does offer excellent performance, but not in the fluted chamber 4.17" P7 barrel that acts like a 3.5" barrel in regard to the muzzle velocity. 147 grain 9mm ammo is already marginally low in velocity, and is a poor choice for the P7.
Also, the pistol wasn't designed for that weight of bullet, and reliability may suffer with bullet weights that high or, as the manual says, below 100 grains.

The P7 was designed for NATO spec 9mm pistol ammo and delivers hammer like reliability with 115 grain +p loads, as well as outstanding accuracy.






I meant the .45 GAP part.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:43:11 AM EDT
I was watching a show on the NGC about the Autobahn and it looks like the "Highway Autobahn patrol" still carries them.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:35:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
I was watching a show on the NGC about the Autobahn and it looks like the "Highway Autobahn patrol" still carries them.



When I was in Germany (2003) many of the transit police and "beat cops" had P7 PSP the old style P7s Walther P5s and one female officer with a SIG 225.

I have a book on history of Walther. In the book there is a chapter on the Walther P5, and how the P5 was made to replace the P38. The police handgun contract was open to SIG HK and Walther.

Well instead, of the German Police adopting one handgun they took all three. This is why we have the Walther P5, SIG 225 (P6) and HK P7. The new handgun is the USP which is called the P8 and P10 in Germany.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:05:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:09:57 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By twonami:
www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/images/media/productimages/p7m8.jpg
Owners explain this to me. If it's such a good design why isn't HK making them anymore?
Not trying to raise any hackles just curious



It is a good pistol, but it is expensive to make and thus has a high price tag. H&K just couldn't sell enough of them because of the cost. The only major department that adopted the PM7 style pistol in the US was the New Jersey State Police. The troopers I knew in NJ liked the pistols a lot, as they concealed easy and were easy to shoot well.

Most who own one of the PM7 pistols really like them.

I have always wanted one myself. One day when I get some bills paid, I will buy one.

Personally, however, in an expensive single stack pistol, I prefer the 1911 like my Les Baer. The P7 series of pistols are very accurate, but I defy you to find one that is as accurate as my Baer.
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