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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/28/2006 8:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 8:22:11 AM EDT by triburst1]
Doesn't include the GLOCK 17 or the 1911. They are both listed as "honorable mentions."
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:21:58 AM EDT
You've got to be kidding me.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:23:18 AM EDT
If it excludes the 1911, then the article is total bullshit.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
You've got to be kidding me.



Nope. They do have about a half a dozen break top revolvers in the list.

The only semi autos to make the cut were the Luger, P-38, and the Hi-Power. After almost 100 years, the 1911 is still going strong and the GLOCK has changed the entire industry and caught on like no other handgun in history. The Luger and P-38 were all but obsolete less than 50 years after they were introduced.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:32:52 AM EDT
"Most Influential" ?

That's a pretty syreberle topic. Now I remember why I stopped reading G&A.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:41:30 AM EDT
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:53:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 8:53:31 AM EDT by THR-Thumper]

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



No one here has said that the P38 or the Hi Power shouldn't be be on the list. Perhaps you should read the thread.

I would include both of those in my list.

There's no context in which you can exclude the 1911 or Glock from a 'most influential' list.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:59:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoCon007:
If it excludes the 1911, then the article is total bullshit.



+eleventybillion
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:15:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 9:19:12 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



OK. I agree that the 1911 hasn't really influenced much other than dozens of other companies making their own, almost identical version.

The GLOCK on the other hand is easily the most influential handgun of the last 50 years. How many companies were offering polymer frames, striker fired designs, or DAO pistols before the GLOCK?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:21:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



I read the article, and I completely agree with his choices. I do think that HK with its early polymer frame auto should have made the list. Think of all the polymer framed pistols out there now? Thats pretty revolutionary.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:05:50 PM EDT
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:49:27 PM EDT
Bad thing about G&A is that with the slick paper they use it doesn't even make for good toilet paper.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:03:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Bad thing about G&A is that with the slick paper they use it doesn't even make for good toilet paper.



+1
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:06:49 PM EDT
Yeah, the "modified Browning" locking system that virtually everyone uses is derived from the 1911.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:10:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



OK. I agree that the 1911 hasn't really influenced much other than dozens of other companies making their own, almost identical version.

The GLOCK on the other hand is easily the most influential handgun of the last 50 years. How many companies were offering polymer frames, striker fired designs, or DAO pistols before the GLOCK?



You are mistaken. Browning designed the recoil system used in almost all subsequent recoil operated handgun designs.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:11:17 PM EDT
the reason is the article is for the "worlds" top ten and the author didnt think the american 1911 fit into that catagory.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beleg:
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?



What does the military's choice in sidearms, which aren't used that much in the military anyway, have to do with anything?

By your logic, CZ-75 should be #1.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:33:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



OK. I agree that the 1911 hasn't really influenced much other than dozens of other companies making their own, almost identical version.

The GLOCK on the other hand is easily the most influential handgun of the last 50 years. How many companies were offering polymer frames, striker fired designs, or DAO pistols before the GLOCK?



Just HK with the VP 70.

The true first polymer DAO pistol.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:02:53 PM EDT
The 1911 was THE HANDGUN that showed the rest of the world in WWI that an Auto could be a reliable front line weapon.
At the start of WWI only America, with the 1911 and Germany, with the P08 luger had autos (IIRC). The P08 was a failure as front line weapon, it is too finely made and fitted to be reliable when dirty and abused.
After WWI everyone except the British were looking for a good combat auto, and even the Brits went to the Hi-Power by the end of WWII, a direct decendant of the 1911.


The Glock is infuential because it was the first reliable combat handgun useing low-cost manufacturing methods.
Before the Glock, handguns were designed with little to no concern for how difficult or exspensive to make they would be. People thought a cheaply made gun would only give poor perfomance and reliability.
The Glock G17 ended that.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:07:26 PM EDT
The 1911 revolutionized handguns for the first half pof the twentieth century.

The Glock did the same for the second half.

To exclude either simply removes the authors validation as a gun writer of this type of subject and proves that the article is nothing more than a "My favorite ten guns" article.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:03:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:08:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Remembert that "influential" means how much the design influenced the future of handguns worldwide. If the article were for the 10 "best" handguns then I agree that the 1911 should be included.

Read the article...the author explains why pistols like the luger, P38 and HiPower influenced the future of handgunning.

How can you simply say that the P38 and HiPower shouldn't count when the M9 pistol is a direct decendent of the P38 with the hi-cap capability introduced by the HiPower???

The Luger is long ago obsolete, yes, but look at it in terms of it's historical context. For its' day, it was a step forward and moved military handgunning out of the revolver age.

Again, read the article!



OK. I agree that the 1911 hasn't really influenced much other than dozens of other companies making their own, almost identical version.

The GLOCK on the other hand is easily the most influential handgun of the last 50 years. How many companies were offering polymer frames, striker fired designs, or DAO pistols before the GLOCK?



Just HK with the VP 70.

The true first polymer DAO pistol.



Yes, it the VP70 was very innovative, but it was not popular enough to really influence other designs to a great degree. The overly large size, bad ergonomics, and crappy trigger were the main reasons it never caught on, IMO. GLOCK took the general idea, and refined and perfected it for popular use.

As as side note, I have used a select fire VP70 with shoulder stock and it was very cool.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:34:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Beleg:
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?




You can turn in your Man Card now.


+1000000000

I don't even know where to start??
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:46:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
You've got to be kidding me.



Nope. They do have about a half a dozen break top revolvers in the list.

The only semi autos to make the cut were the Luger, P-38, and the Hi-Power. After almost 100 years, the 1911 is still going strong and the GLOCK has changed the entire industry and caught on like no other handgun in history. The Luger and P-38 were all but obsolete less than 505 years after they were introduced.



Either did not have a reason to be produced while the Hi-Power and 1911 were being made.

I do not even own a 1911 or a Glock, but even I know that they are in the top 10 f most influential handguns.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:47:01 PM EDT
Hey, what are you gonna do? If you write an article that doesn't include every product ffrom your biggest advertisers, you are fucked. So, you write one and only include mostly obsolete firearms, thereby not pissing off the advertisers. ANY article on most influential firearms in history that doesn't include the 1911 is nothing more than firestarter.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:11:34 PM EDT
Any article that categorizes firearms in any way is the subject of heated debate.

Gun owners are such thin-skinned homos when someone doesn't sing the praises of whatever they are into.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:59:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By Beleg:
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?



What does the military's choice in sidearms, which aren't used that much in the military anyway, have to do with anything?

By your logic, CZ-75 should be #1.



The article is about MILITARY SIDEARMS!

Have any of you even read the article? Or are you just running your uneducated virtual mouths?!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:06:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:55:36 AM EDT by Beleg]

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Beleg:
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?




You can turn in your Man Card now.



Did you even read my post? Or did you repeat an interesting comment that someone else thought of five years ago?

Does anyone understand what "INFLUENTIAL" means? It doesn't mean that you like the gun; it means the design of the firearm affected the design of subsequent firearms. I like the 1911. That doesn't mean it influenced other gunmakers. Goddamn koolaid drinkers. Anything remotely un-positive about your favorite gun and you freak.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:16:05 PM EDT
The 1911 pistol introduced the .45 ACP cartridge into common use. In light of it's long military service, and the reports of the U.S. military once again returning to the cartridge, it's pretty hard to argue against it's military influence.

How many countries have fielded the 1911 in one guise or another?

How many different versions of the 1911 have we seen? From Detonics' pocket rockets, to the myriad examples offered by different manufacturers (more every week), to even the lowly Ballester Molina, the influence of the 1911 is absolutely undeniable.



Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:44:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:
The 1911 pistol introduced the .45 ACP cartridge into common use. In light of it's long military service, and the reports of the U.S. military once again returning to the cartridge, it's pretty hard to argue against it's military influence.

How many countries have fielded the 1911 in one guise or another?

How many different versions of the 1911 have we seen? From Detonics' pocket rockets, to the myriad examples offered by different manufacturers (more every week), to even the lowly Ballester Molina, the influence of the 1911 is absolutely undeniable.






Ahh, a well-reasoned and articulate argument. Are you sure you belong on arfcom?!!

I would agree that it is influential because it introduced the .45ACP. I would even say that there are a lot of of 1911 clones. But the article is presenting Gary James' idea of the 10 most influential military handguns. The truth of the matter is that the 1911 really didn't do nearly as much as other designs when it comes to influencing modern designs utilized by the military today. That being said, I am wearing a 5' 1911 in a Milt Sparks IWB as we speak. Maybe the reason it didn't influence other gun makers is because you cannot improve upon PERFECTION! Of course, that's only my opinion.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:42:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beleg:

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By Beleg:
The 1911 is not an influential handgun. Sorry. It's my favorite, but there is no modern widely used military sidearmwith a barrel bushing, or a single stack mag, or a grip safety, or really even in .45 caliber.

So how is it influential?



What does the military's choice in sidearms, which aren't used that much in the military anyway, have to do with anything?

By your logic, CZ-75 should be #1.



The article is about MILITARY SIDEARMS!

Have any of you even read the article? Or are you just running your uneducated virtual mouths?!

How many military sidearms use a Browning designed tilting barrel ala 1911? I'd venture a guess as to most of them, so again, how can the design made famous by Browning in the 1911 not be influential?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:59:22 PM EDT

How many military sidearms use a Browning designed tilting barrel ala 1911? I'd venture a guess as to most of them, so again, how can the design made famous by Browning in the 1911 not be influential?


I'm on your side, but the Browning designed barrel lock up most copied is from the hi power. Not too many other military sidearms use a swinging link.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:17:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

How many military sidearms use a Browning designed tilting barrel ala 1911? I'd venture a guess as to most of them, so again, how can the design made famous by Browning in the 1911 not be influential?


I'm on your side, but the Browning designed barrel lock up most copied is from the hi power. Not too many other military sidearms use a swinging link.

That's why I intentionally left out the tilting "link" portion. While what you say is true, the concept of the tilting barrel basically came from the 1911, and was further refined by JMB and that French guy Didiot Saive(I can't remember the name) who completed the design.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:33:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 9:34:48 PM EDT by STG77]
Wasn't the 1911 the first successful military handgun that used a slide?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:14:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 10:19:12 PM EDT by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
The 1911 was THE HANDGUN that showed the rest of the world in WWI that an Auto could be a reliable front line weapon.
At the start of WWI only America, with the 1911 and Germany, with the P08 luger had autos (IIRC). The P08 was a failure as front line weapon, it is too finely made and fitted to be reliable when dirty and abused.
After WWI everyone except the British were looking for a good combat auto, and even the Brits went to the Hi-Power by the end of WWII, a direct decendant of the 1911.


The Glock is infuential because it was the first reliable combat handgun useing low-cost manufacturing methods.
Before the Glock, handguns were designed with little to no concern for how difficult or exspensive to make they would be. People thought a cheaply made gun would only give poor perfomance and reliability.
The Glock G17 ended that.



While the British army did favor revolvers, Churchill was using a 1896 "Broomhandle" Mauser way back in the Boer war. Broomhandle Mausers saw extensive use in the German army in WWI, and they were widely used elsewhere. They were still in service in the German army in WWII. Han Solo's blaster was based on the broomhandle Mauser, so it's influence extended even to galaxys far far away. Broomhandle Mausers predated the 1911 by 15 years. If any gun showed the rest of the world that an auto could be a reliable front line weapon, the 1896 Mauser did it first.

And as it happens, Churchill wasn't the only Brit using a semi-automatic pistol. Webley-Fosbery automatic revolvers saw service in WWI, although they weren't official issue. Webley also sold something over 7600 of their Navy Model .455 auto to the Royal Navy beginning in 1913., and they also provided 439 .455 semi-automatic pistols to the Royal Horse Artillery between 1913 and 1919. And the influence of Webley's semi-automatics extended all the way to Harrington & Richardson copies.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:52:45 AM EDT
Being that the P35 Hi-Power is an improved 1911 design, I too can not understand how the 1911 is not on the list. In fact wasn't the Random a copy of the 1911 (or was it a P35 clone)?

I will give you some ground on the P38 since Beretta copied the locking block design, but the Luger? I love my Lugers, they look coo. But how many toggle action have we had since? They are a pain to strip and assemble, and shooting the toggle action, is just kinda strange
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:18:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
Being that the P35 Hi-Power is an improved 1911 design, I too can not understand how the 1911 is not on the list. In fact wasn't the Random Radom a copy of the 1911 (or was it a P35 clone)?




The Radom is sort of a cross between a 1911 and a Hi-Power.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:50:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 11:52:41 AM EDT by ken_mays]
What the Luger showed is that it was possible for a major industrial power to arm its military with a newfangled, removable box magazine semiautomatic, using a decent mid-caliber cartridge. It worked well enough that the other combatants decided they needed automatics too.

The 1911's greatest contribution to subsequent designs was the tilting barrel which was refined and simplified in the P35. Other than that, not much of its design really carried over, except perhaps the recoil spring setup and external hammer -- which were hardly refinements that were unique to the 1911.

It might be more accurate to say that the 1911's performance (coupled with that of the .45 ACP) set the benchmark for subsequent combat sidearms.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:53:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:03:56 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:56:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By NeoCon007:
If it excludes the 1911, then the article is total bullshit.



+eleventybillion



+87
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:11:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:12:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Bad thing about G&A is that with the slick paper they use it doesn't even make for good toilet paper.



Can ye smell it?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:26:30 PM EDT
The 1911 made the History Channel's "Ten Guns that changed the world" or whatever list and I believe it was the only handgun besides the Colt Patterson revolver. I think it was #6. Others that I can think of were the AK47, M1 Garand, BAR, Kentucky Rifle and I know that the Maxim Gun was #1.
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