Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 12/21/2008 10:19:58 AM EST
I have finally decided my next purchase will be my "go-to" (all I have now is a taurus 9mm) pistol and that it will be a top of the line handgun so that I cannot have any "excuses" about accuracy or reliability. I have also decided on 9mm as the caliber I want, but now I am having a hard time choosing the pistol I want. What are some other high quality makers for a 9mm handgun? Also, is the HK P30L better than the g19 for the much higher price tag?
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 11:27:17 AM EST
G19

if anything, you have spare parts and can use 33rnders
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 11:36:02 AM EST
I like the way the P30 feels better, but it's hard to say it is a better handgun than the G19. They are both very reliable, but mags and accessories for the G19 will be easier to find (as well as real night sights).

I have never minded paying more for an HK because I feel their overall quality and attention to detail are better. Pick the one that you like the best, if it is the P30 than I wouldn't sweat the $200 difference. Either one will be a great "go to" gun.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 12:12:31 PM EST
The G19 is certainly more flexible than the P30L. If concealed carry is what you're after, then the G19 would be the better choice.

But if you are interested in the P30L, why not check out the P2000sk or P2000 as well? Those are the ones I'd be looking at. If you're looking for something the size of a G17, then I'd insert the P30L into the picture.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 12:12:43 PM EST
What would you say the pros/cons are to the exposed hammer/decocker and external safety of the HK vs the Glock style?

I am very familiar with glock pistols (I had a G-21 but sold it due to grip size being too fat and I like 9mm better) and was happy with how it functioned but always wondered how I would like an exposed hammer/safety.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 12:23:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2008 12:24:51 PM EST by MaverickH1]
Originally Posted By Shooter-Mike:
What would you say the pros/cons are to the exposed hammer/decocker and external safety of the HK vs the Glock style?

I am very familiar with glock pistols (I had a G-21 but sold it due to grip size being too fat and I like 9mm better) and was happy with how it functioned but always wondered how I would like an exposed hammer/safety.


Well, the exposed hammer on the P30L actually hurts the dimensions for concealed carry. Personally, I'm no fan of the spurred hammer on a gun that can't be carried cocked and locked. If you move into the P2000/P2000sk world, you can get the LEM variant and end up with the bobbed hammer and a consistent trigger pull. I say that because I'm not a fan of DA/SA with no manual safety like the P30L has.

Personally, I like an exposed hammer more than a striker fired system. If you asked me to explain why, I wouldn't be able to come up with any logical reason. I just like it more.

Some will argue that an external hammer can be caused to fail if sand, dirt, etc gets into the firing pin/hammer cavity. And while that can certainly be true... the likelihood of that ever happening are slim to none.

Again, look into the P2000/P2000sk series. Both of those accept the higher capacity P30 mags. I went the route of the P2000sk. It can be very easily concealed as a subcompact gun, or I can slap a P2000/USPc mag and X-Grip (mag spacer) in it to make it a compact grip, or if I had a 9mm I could slap a P30 mag in it and make it a full size grip. Unfortunately, no one makes a mag spacer for the P30 mag, but I could make one if I actually used a P30 mag.

And if you want to carry cocked and locked, enter the USPc.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 12:31:10 PM EST
It would be a good idea to try and fire them side by side and see what you think.

I have a G19 and it seems to be the gold standard of pistols. If you're not a 1911 fanatic. For some reason I too like an exposed hammer. There are a few situations I could see using it. But not self defense situations. But the proof would be in the shooting in my thinking. Or, get both.

I would really like to shoot an P30L and an HK45.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 12:50:17 PM EST
see sig line :-)
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 2:38:41 PM EST
G19. The 33-round mags are a bonus.....
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 2:46:33 PM EST
I had both..... G19 along with a HK p30 The hk was about 5/8 in longer in the grip but other wise really close in size and weight.

Hk p30... mags are costly and parts can be had but not a big varity..the hk can be easily used with left or right hands....

G19... wide varity of parts and mags can be had for around 24.00, is not left hand friendly but can be used by a lefty with some practice.

Both pistols will eat pretty much what ever you feed them, just keep them clean, depending on your body shape and size both can be concealed...

Link Posted: 12/21/2008 2:50:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2008 2:50:39 PM EST by Lord_Of_War]
M&P9 FTMFW!



Best handgun I've ever owned or shot, and I've had plenty. Glocks, Sigs, 1911s, etc. None of them were more accurate, reliable or felt better in my hand then the M&P did.


Link Posted: 12/21/2008 4:55:37 PM EST
Just finished up a Larry Vickers course, he was shooting a P30 and doing it very well.

DA/SA, decocker, no safety.

He also managed to outshoot the Glock shooters in the course, but not the 1911 guys, when we shot silhouettes out to 150.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 5:07:36 PM EST
Other brands of reliable 9mm pistols (in no particular order):
-S&W: new M&P as well as 3 generations of metal framed pistols which are generally boringly reliable
-Ruger: new SR9 and older P-series which again are boringly reliable
-Sig: 4 main current models in many configurations
-Springfield: varieties of 1911s plus the XD line
-CZ: many many configurations of the 75
-Para-Ord: another take on the 1911 including the LDA
-FN: I know nothing about their pistols other than the BHP but I don't think they are still made anymore
-Walther: not sure if their P99 is the exact same as the S&W or not
-Steyr: not sure if they are still importing
-Kahr: great for ccw but not optimum for nightstand duty

It all depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. Metal vs polymer; hammer vs striker; compact vs full size; etc etc etc.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 5:27:21 PM EST
Glock 19
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 6:18:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2008 6:19:12 PM EST by triburst1]
GLOCK 19, extra mags, and a case of ammo.
Link Posted: 12/21/2008 10:27:52 PM EST
Glock> then any HK.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 6:30:40 AM EST
I have a G19 and my brother has the P30L.

Had we been able to find the HK available for rental, he would NOT have bought the pistol.

We cannot stand the rediculous length of the trigger reset. It is way too long; you're practically releasing the trigger, unlike the Glock that resets after approximately 1/4". Then, once you actually hear/feel the reset click, there's another 1/4" of "mush" before you actually trip the hammer.

It certainly fits the hand better, looks sleeker, and appears very well made. I'd also say that it has less recoil.

But the trigger alone is the downfall of HK. Enough so that my brother is seriously contemplating on selling it.

(that said, since you're considering a full-sized pistol, look at the FNP-45. Just don't use WWB ammo since mine jammed with it. It ate everything else. It's the softest recoiling .45ACP I've ever shot, just slightly more than the G19.)
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 9:05:03 AM EST
why not a G-17 or 34?

why are you comparing a full size pistol to a compact?

also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

drop in a 3.5 lb connector of your choice and some good sights of your choice and you are good to go.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 10:39:42 AM EST
Get the standard P30. I own a Glock 19 and love its size and reliability, I've shot a family members P30 numerous times and I think its absolutely fantastic. I can't get over the ergonomics of the P30 and how well designed it is.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 11:35:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2008 11:37:33 AM EST by Coltsfan]
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30. div]




How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 12:20:49 PM EST
I love my P30, but i would say get whatever you shoot better.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 1:43:21 PM EST
HK makes quality weapons I just don't like them as much as GLOCKs.

I don't like HK triggers and every one I've ever handled had too many sharp pointy things to be a good concealed carry piece.

Also, I think HK pistols are too expensive for what they are. They are welcome to charge whatever they want for them but I see nothing to justify a price tag of $300 more than a GLOCK or Sig Pro.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 2:07:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By triburst1:
every one I've ever handled had too many sharp pointy things to be a good concealed carry piece.


That's the first time I've heard someone say that a Glock has less sharp corners than an HK.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 2:13:36 PM EST
Some dealers LOVE to price gouge on HK guns. Typically, a Glock will be a standard $550 or so brand new, but HKs will range in price from $625 at a good dealer to $950 for a used one at another dealer.

Don't think that just because you see people price gouging with HKs that it's what you must pay for them.

There's a guy near me who absolutely hates HKs for whatever reason, he's had two sitting in his shop for 2 years. Both are used, both are priced at $850. When I went into his shop to make a trade, and add $200 cash to the deal to get one of the beaten up USP compacts, he said that we were too far apart. And instead, pulled out a Sigma for $450 and offered that to me instead.

That is what I see a lot of dealers do with HK guns. They hope that a rich guy will walk in and buy the most expensive thing, and they also hope that if a newbie comes in to buy, he will balk at an $850 HK and then pounce when he sees a Sigma for only $450.

See the point?

The most I've paid for an HK is my USP tactical with tall night sights, paid $740 for it brand new. Paid $595 for my stainless USP brand new. Paid $495 for my P2000sk that was slightly used.

HK is much better for me than Glock because I DON'T pay those premiums. If I had to pay $900 for a regular ol' USP... I would've gone another direction.

I gladly pay the small premium I did because I got the gun I wanted. Period.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 2:14:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2008 2:16:31 PM EST by MaverickH1]
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.


SpacemanSpiff doesn't deal in reason when it comes to anything related to HK. Check out any HK thread and he's probably there laying gems like this all over.

Don't waste your time on him.

Same with SkagSig40.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 2:58:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.


SpacemanSpiff doesn't deal in reason when it comes to anything related to HK. Check out any HK thread and he's probably there laying gems like this all over.

Don't waste your time on him.

Same with SkagSig40.



Ahhhh, gotcha.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 3:03:08 PM EST
If it were me and you can swing it I'd get the H&K. If price is a factor then I would try to rent a M&P. I was an avid Glock shooter for years. I still like them a lot. However I think they have been resting on thier laurels in the ergonomics and trigger pull department for a long time. If you're not dead set on a 9mm though I would consider the HK45.

With both the P30 and the G19 some people have minor issues with the design of the guns, myself included. I have fairly large hands and find the Glock trigger guard rubs my middle finger to the point that it is annoying durring long range sessions, this is often refered to as Glock finger. The H&K has a trough at the bottom of the trigger guard that the tip of the trigger passes through and my trigger finger winds up dragging across that, which is mildly annoying. The feel of both guns can be made much better with minor use of a file or some sand paper. If you don't want to have to worry about that the best thing you can do is put 200 rounds through all the guns you are interested in, with a very critical eye to each of them.

They both really are great pistols, but niether fits everybody perfectly. The are both highly reliable, durable and well thought out designs. The key differences to weigh between them IMHO is ergonomics, trigger pull, price and availability of accessories and accuracy. These are different for everybody as is the importance of each of them. The HKs have the edge in accuracy and ergonomics for me. The glock wins on trigger pull (compared to a DA/SA H&K) and cost and availability of accesories. Now a cocked and locked or light LEM trigger on an H&K blows glocks trigger away for me. I'd rather have gun that fits my hand perfectly is faster to reload and is extreemly accurate then one with more available accessories. Not to mention I just shoot an HK better than a Glock, especially in larger calibers than 9mm. As far as base price of the gun goes, I don't take that into to much consideration when there is a $200 difference or less.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 4:25:28 PM EST
The USP Compact is almost identical in external dimensions to the G-19, and can be purchased with a safety/decocker lever if you want that option. Only downside to the USP Compact is the rail is HK's proprietary rail, not the eventually settled upon standard.

I prefer the HK P2000. Has a standard rail, and 4 interchangeable backstraps. Can't get one with a safety lever though- only one with a decocker, or one with a more Glock like trigger.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 5:13:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2008 7:01:44 PM EST by triburst1]
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By triburst1:
every one I've ever handled had too many sharp pointy things to be a good concealed carry piece.


That's the first time I've heard someone say that a Glock has less sharp corners than an HK.


This is the first time I've ever heard that anyone would even contest the fact.

The only GLOCK I've ever seen with a sharp edge had a bayonet attached to it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2008 6:39:03 PM EST
Glock 19.

It is THE perfect semiautomatic handgun.
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 12:10:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By triburst1:

This is the first time I've ever heard that anyone would even contest the fact.

The only GLOCK I've ever seen with a sharp edge had a bayonet attached to it.


However dumb of a point it is to argue about, I disagree. Especially on the P30.
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 8:18:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 8:20:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 10:18:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.


SpacemanSpiff doesn't deal in reason when it comes to anything related to HK. Check out any HK thread and he's probably there laying gems like this all over.

Don't waste your time on him.

Same with SkagSig40.


So what exactly does an HK do better then a Glock except jam when it gets a little dirt in it? I own several HK handguns, Sig, 1911's, XD's and Glocks. The Glocks are consistant in their quality. I have had problems with every other brand. Glock juat makes a consistant quality product.

Link Posted: 12/23/2008 1:05:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:So what exactly does an HK do better then a Glock except jam when it gets a little dirt in it? I own several HK handguns, Sig, 1911's, XD's and Glocks. The Glocks are consistant in their quality. I have had problems with every other brand. Glock juat makes a consistant quality product.


Your statement in the form of a question prompted me to go outside with both my USP and my P2000sk, break open the 3" ice in our pond, and video tape plunging the USP and P2000sk into the mud at the bottom of the pond with the slides locked open. Since I didn't bring a bunch of ammo home with me this Xmas, I only had 10 rounds for each and they both ran fine.

Only problem was I couldn't get the USP slide release to work initially, most likely because my hand was stuck in 10 degree water for a minute and a half and I had no feeling in them.

Unfortunately, my first ever attempt at uploading video has been crapped on because the camcorder in the house won't communicate with any of the damn computers in the house on JUST THE DAMN GUN VIDEO. If you want to see me dropping a kitten on ice for the first time in its life and having it try to chase a cat-tail weed, that works.

Bottom line, I've watched it a bunch of times and I bet you'll still find something to complain about in it. And a couple things I say in it are only justified because I was a little bit lazy at the time. So I'll probably end up organizing it a little bit better and doing it with a camera man soon, and then post both up.

All based on the premise that I think you are full of shit.

The Glock is still a good gun. Someday I will do a complete torture test between a number of guns from different makers. When that day comes where I can do a test and the Glock beats everything else, then I'll happily agree with you.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head is that roughly 20% of the Glocks I have seen have failed. You call BS on that one, and understandably. But it's the truth in my experience. So I'm not buying for a second that Glock is #1 in terms of reliability. For now.
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 2:44:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.


SpacemanSpiff doesn't deal in reason when it comes to anything related to HK. Check out any HK thread and he's probably there laying gems like this all over.

Don't waste your time on him.

Same with SkagSig40.


So what exactly does an HK do better then a Glock except jam when it gets a little dirt in it? I own several HK handguns, Sig, 1911's, XD's and Glocks. The Glocks are consistant in their quality. I have had problems with every other brand. Glock juat makes a consistant quality product.



...and this is coming from a guy who was a GLOCK basher not too long ago.

Link Posted: 12/23/2008 2:50:10 PM EST
any 9mm Glock. I own 3 and I love them all.
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 10:17:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/23/2008 10:30:51 PM EST by SkagSig40]
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:So what exactly does an HK do better then a Glock except jam when it gets a little dirt in it? I own several HK handguns, Sig, 1911's, XD's and Glocks. The Glocks are consistant in their quality. I have had problems with every other brand. Glock juat makes a consistant quality product.


Your statement in the form of a question prompted me to go outside with both my USP and my P2000sk, break open the 3" ice in our pond, and video tape plunging the USP and P2000sk into the mud at the bottom of the pond with the slides locked open. Since I didn't bring a bunch of ammo home with me this Xmas, I only had 10 rounds for each and they both ran fine.

Only problem was I couldn't get the USP slide release to work initially, most likely because my hand was stuck in 10 degree water for a minute and a half and I had no feeling in them.

Unfortunately, my first ever attempt at uploading video has been crapped on because the camcorder in the house won't communicate with any of the damn computers in the house on JUST THE DAMN GUN VIDEO. If you want to see me dropping a kitten on ice for the first time in its life and having it try to chase a cat-tail weed, that works.

Bottom line, I've watched it a bunch of times and I bet you'll still find something to complain about in it. And a couple things I say in it are only justified because I was a little bit lazy at the time. So I'll probably end up organizing it a little bit better and doing it with a camera man soon, and then post both up.

All based on the premise that I think you are full of shit.

The Glock is still a good gun. Someday I will do a complete torture test between a number of guns from different makers. When that day comes where I can do a test and the Glock beats everything else, then I'll happily agree with you.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head is that roughly 20% of the Glocks I have seen have failed. You call BS on that one, and understandably. But it's the truth in my experience. So I'm not buying for a second that Glock is #1 in terms of reliability. For now.[/div]



Check out Bigbore's test of his Glock. He added an HK USP in the mix and did the same stuff to it as he did to the Glock. The HK fail and failed big time. It got off 1 round one and jamed up. The Glock was subject to FAR, FAR more abuse then the HK and NEVER missed a beat.

I don't have anything against HK except I think they are way over priced for what you get. I own many HK weapons from a few USP's to a 91, SP89 and a few others. Ihave had random jams with my USP's but NEVER with my Glocks.....You can say I'm full of shit but many members who know me think otherwise and also that does not change the fact that the Glock is a better weapon.

Link Posted: 12/23/2008 10:28:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By triburst1:
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff: also, the glock-17/19/34 are much better pistols than the USP or the P30.

How so? Sounds like personal preference to me. I can think of pros and cons of both, but hard to just flat out say one is "better" than the other.


SpacemanSpiff doesn't deal in reason when it comes to anything related to HK. Check out any HK thread and he's probably there laying gems like this all over.

Don't waste your time on him.

Same with SkagSig40.


So what exactly does an HK do better then a Glock except jam when it gets a little dirt in it? I own several HK handguns, Sig, 1911's, XD's and Glocks. The Glocks are consistent in their quality. I have had problems with every other brand. Glock just makes a consistent quality product.



...and this is coming from a guy who was a GLOCK basher not too long ago.



Hey now, did I bash Glocks before??? I think I did.

That was up until I bought a few Sigs that were total POS!!! I used to think Sig's were unstoppable. I still feel Sigs are some of the best pistols made but only the older ones from 5+years ago. After reading how their QC is in the toilet and then buying 1st had 4 lemons I stopped being a fan boy and tried my 1st Glock after hating them for years. Now I feel the Glock is the best combat pistol you can buy today. Seeing how well they perform for countless other shooters and now myself I'm sold on them.

I think MaverickH1 is in the mind frame about his HK's that I once was with my Sigs a couple years back. I was wrong about Glock and admit it. I have seen 1st hand many problems with HK's and Sigs. I still own them but I now carry only Glock and Smith 3rd Gens.
Link Posted: 12/23/2008 11:56:58 PM EST
Now you need to wrap your mits around a P30 and you will see what the fuss is about. They are fantastic.
Link Posted: 12/24/2008 4:15:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2008 4:15:23 AM EST by MaverickH1]
Yes, I saw BigBore's test. It was cool. But the fact that it had pictures and not video can speak volumes. For example, if he slaps the Glock twice and shakes it once, but only slaps the HK once, then the whole test is worthless. And if he shakes neither, both would fail.

Someday I will prove it one way or the other to at least myself. But the number of Glocks I have seen choke JUST AT THE RANGE makes me amazed that they would be #1 in reliability.
Link Posted: 12/24/2008 6:11:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:

Ihave had random jams with my USP's but NEVER with my Glocks......



I have had the exact opposite happen to me. Glocks rarely malfunctioning and my HK's never.

And Larry Vickers did a "torture test" where a G21 choked and the USP kept chugging along. Different strokes for different folks. You think that the Glock is the best combat pistol and that is ok. But it is purely opinion.

Link Posted: 12/24/2008 4:45:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Coltsfan:
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Originally Posted By MaverickH1:
Originally Posted By SkagSig40:

Ihave had random jams with my USP's but NEVER with my Glocks......



I have had the exact opposite happen to me. Glocks rarely malfunctioning and my HK's never.

And Larry Vickers did a "torture test" where a G21 choked and the USP kept chugging along. Different strokes for different folks. You think that the Glock is the best combat pistol and that is ok. But it is purely opinion.



Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one!


Top Top